How Many Primarchs would it take to beat the Emperor

[dizzy-xc]

The custodes came along because they are the Emprah's sworn bodyguards

 

Why would the Emperor need bodyguards at all ?

 

Also, I still don't get why the guy wasn't at the forefront of battle decimating the Chaos forces at the gates singlehandedly if he's so powerful ...

 

Because at the time he was busy keeping the warp gate from collapsing into a chaos invasion of earth.

[The Emperor's Champion]

I think he was working on a more effective solution. The problem with The Emperor's power at the time seems to be that he had to do it in person and there simply wasn't enough of him to go around. Even if he had been slaughtering Chaos Marines and traitor Guard non-stop for 1000 years Terra would still be overrun due purely to the unimaginable number of them.

 

Why he needs bodyguards I really don't know. Even in Blood Games (the Adeptus Custodes short story) it seems like they're there more to make sure the palace is defended than The Emperor himself. Maybe they're there just for unforeseen circumstances? Just for show? To give his enemies a false sense of...uh...ability to kill him? To just discourage the idea of bothering him? Crowd control when he goes to the Oscars?

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

The custodes came along because they are the Emprah's sworn bodyguards

 

Why would the Emperor need bodyguards at all ?

 

Also, I still don't get why the guy wasn't at the forefront of battle decimating the Chaos forces at the gates singlehandedly if he's so powerful ...

 

the Emperor doesnt need bodyguards in the conventional sense. being the most powerful human in existence pretty much guarentees that.

 

he wasnt defending the Gates of the Palace itself because he was waiting for Horus to show his hand, to make a mistake. the Palace wasnt that important, HE was. if Horus could kill him, Palace or no palace, Horus would have won.

the Palace is replaceable, the Emperor isnt.

 

WLK

[The 13th Goat]

To Goat, the Emprah brought along his custodians and two primarchs, that much is a given. Dorn and Sang came along with him because they refused to let their father go and confront Horus all by himself. They did not do this out of fear that their father would be defeated, but because they were not going to let him go and face the most important battle of history by himself. The custodes came along because they are the Emprah's sworn bodyguards and he never went anywhere without them in tow. It stands to reason, and the lfuff backs it up, that Horus' flagship would be the most corrupted, the most dangerous, the most treacherous place to fight in the area of the siege. Taking backup does not mean that the Emprah didn't think he could accomplish his goal by himself.

 

But again, why would he have bodyguards if he didn't need them? Any being that can apparently trash 18 Primarchs and can fire the power of a million stars from his eyes wouldn't need 300 personal bodyguards. And Dorn and Sang went with him to help, indicating they were worried. Surely they weren't their to hold his hand and pat him on the back as he went into the command room.

 

No offence, but the fluff does indeed indicate the ship was a living hell. And taking back up DOES mean he felt he would struggle to do it alone.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

i dont plan for a car accident, but i always wear my seatbelt.

 

maybe the Emperor used this logic...he might not need his guards, but would rather have them then not.

 

WLK

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

Woah, are we suggesting that the Emperor doesn't need bodyguards?

 

Especially after reading the stuff they put up on the final battle, which showed the Emperor lost and confused. He needed purpose, and if there had been none to protect him than he would have been stbbed and possibly killed at that moment.

 

Once He got His sense of purpose back, He teleported to Horuses battle barge to fight him. He needed bodyguards for a different reason than most think, which is to say He would rather conserve His energy for fighting Horus* than cleansing the barge. He didn't want to waste His time and energy fighting hordes of Daemons, He brought His bodyguard so that they could do that for Him. His plan was to make at as one on one as possible, because fighting off all those hordes would have left Him weaker, however slightly.

 

Remember, the Emperor actually had to do battle with a number of Greater Daemons (read the second Space Wolces novel), witch showed he couldn't just twitch his pinkie and banish powerful daemons.

 

*who would have had a fair chance at killing Him if only because the Chaos Gods planned to pour so much energy in him, then betray Horus at the end, which they did.

[The Emperor's Champion]

i dont plan for a car accident, but i always wear my seatbelt.

 

maybe the Emperor used this logic...he might not need his guards, but would rather have them then not.

 

WLK

This is my interpretation too. (where did your avatar go WLK?)

 

 

Actually, as to fighting daemons on the Vengeful Spirit and it being a twisted hell thing, yea...it was initially. It ate a couple Custodes when they first boarded and then The Emperor sorta blinked at it and purged the halls of the ship of demonic infestation (at least in the parts he was moving through) so that it was safe to proceed. So I'm not convinced he was worried about fighting demons. Maybe an endless tide of demons invading through the Golden Throne would worry him, but a finite number on a ship, probably not so much.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

Again, I think you are overestimating the Emperors abilities, and I don't know why you think their would be a finite number of daemons on the Vengeful Spirit, I think it would be safe to assume Horus opened up some holes in the Warp to get them there, after all.

 

So, we have endless daemons rushing at Emperor an co. and He knows this will happen, so He scatters His bodyguards (somewhat) so that they will be speedbumbs, although I don't think He intended to have Sanguinus meet up with Horus so soon. The scattered guards were a speedbump tactic, distracting the Horde.

 

While He did clear a small area, I don't think it was a third of the ship, and who's to say it didn't recorrupt itself after He left?

[The Emperor's Champion]

I'm not overestimating him... That's just what happened...

Insane voices gibber madly inside his skull. There are figures trapped in the stone walls of the vast room. Hands reach out for him, grasp at him with rock-like strength. He shrugs them off easily. His comrades are not so lucky. Bolters chatter and flash as the Marines attempt to fight off their demonic assailants. A man screams as he is drawn into the dark and slimy walls. As he vanishes, ripples spread from his point of disappearance. The Emperor's sword lashes out, severing limbs, freeing trapped Marines. He summons his psychic energies. A nimbus flickers around his head as he unleashes his power. A tidal wave of destruction rips through the daemons, leaving his own men unscathed.

 

He didn't mean to get separated from his crew at all. He was confused about where they had disappeared to when they arrived.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

you know what, i got no clue where my avatar disapeered to...maybe i should try fixing that.

 

WLK

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

I'm not overestimating him... That's just what happened...

Insane voices gibber madly inside his skull. There are figures trapped in the stone walls of the vast room. Hands reach out for him, grasp at him with rock-like strength. He shrugs them off easily. His comrades are not so lucky. Bolters chatter and flash as the Marines attempt to fight off their demonic assailants. A man screams as he is drawn into the dark and slimy walls. As he vanishes, ripples spread from his point of disappearance. The Emperor's sword lashes out, severing limbs, freeing trapped Marines. He summons his psychic energies. A nimbus flickers around his head as he unleashes his power. A tidal wave of destruction rips through the daemons, leaving his own men unscathed.

 

He didn't mean to get separated from his crew at all. He was confused about where they had disappeared to when they arrived.

 

Woops....

 

I still hold by that He wanted them to fight Daemons to free him up for Horus.

 

This is where I am going to have to say the fluff isn't clear on what happened, as in it doesn't state why He brought his bodyguards. He definitely neede them, but I believe He could have cleared the ship, He just didn't want to.

 

Another thing, it was safer with the Emperor than in the palace. I mean it says that they were going to be overrun soon in that source as well as in COdex, Chaos Space Marines, and without the Emperor there chances of any survival went down the hole. They might as well accompany Him and try to protect him on the Vengeful Spirit than give their lives protecting something that isn't there anymore.

[The WarPig]

my geuss is that he brought people along cause he couldnt be asked to clear the ship cause he is a lasy :P its also why he wasnt at the front of the fight. ;)

[Walter Payton]

My theory:

 

I think he brought them along precisely to pat him on the back as he went into the throne room. Although it is never really, definitively documented in fiction, THE EMPEROR LOVED HIS SONS. He loved Sanguinius and Rogal Dorn. Why do you think Horus was able to break his back and smash him about. Because the Emperor loved him. If he hadn't he would just have marched straight onto the barge and incinerated him. But he loved him as his son. So he didn't until a IF Terminator/ Imperial Guardsman/ Adeptus Custode entered and Horus ate his soul and flayed him alive with a look, and the Emperor realised how far his son had fallen.

 

He wanted the two primarchs there so HE could protect THEM, not the other way round. He just didn't plan for them being scattered across the Vengeful Spirit. He brought their best warriors to ensure that they would be well guarded. Although this may seem crass (what about the thousands of loyalist warriors on Terra's surface), it was because he loved them, not because he needed guarding.

 

A Song that I reckon sums up Sanguinius:

 

"Three Legions of Marines stand to defend you, sire. All of us will unflinchingly place ourselves between you and the war's desolation. We are the greatest humans ever born- we are the flame of Humanity where the rest is just the spark. In centuries of warfare against the lies of the heretic, the foulness of the mutant, I have never known fear- but your silece terrifies me.'--Primarch Sanguinius during the Battle for Terra

[Monstra Sumus]

To the OP;

 

The Big E, if faced with the prospect of taking down his sons, would quite possibly be laying alot of smack down upon their collective heads.

 

My reasoning for this, and I know some of you will go 'shockhorrorfluffdeath' is that he can.

 

In reference to the Ork Overlord at Ullanor, it was the biggest Ork ever recorded in Imperial history if my HH memory serves me right. Yeah, Horus came in and helped the E by stabbing it when it was munching on the E.

To be honest, if I was one all powerful being in a titanic fight with another all powerful being and getting my arse pulled through myself at that moment, i'd appreciate a ninja stab to my enemies backside too.

The reason why Orks are so hard to put down once they gather is because of the raw psychic energy the WAAAGH! generates. Couple that with the biggest Ork empire ever seen, the biggest Ork Warlord ever seen and the E probaly having to counter act the effects of the WAAAGH! as well as take on the Warlord in CC, you can imagine he may have needed help.

 

I'm scared of Orks alot more than Chaos. You can't altogether stop something that knows it can't be stopped.

 

Am I the only one who believes Magnus isn't as badarse as every thinks he is? He's a sorceror more so than a psyker. Sanguinis was a psyker, if not, the most powerful next to the Emperor. Magnus used ancient and forbidden magics to achieve his victories and revelations. In a fight, while he was conjuring spells from his vast memory bank, i'm pretty sure the E would simply destroy his mind while concentration was otherwise distracted.

 

Angron? Easy, I'm pretty sure the Emperors Talon would put a stop to that one quite quickly, if I was a massive hulky beast of armoured rage I wouldn't want to be impaling me on that claw anytime soon. Plus Angron is far too uncontrollable, no tactical sense of direction in a fight and would just try to wail on the E.

 

Russ? Same again, Angron and Russ where physically strong to a stupid point but thats all they really had going for them and strength, as destructive as it can be, is almost always outclassed by skill and speed.

 

Now Corax and Curze may fare a wee bit better, especially if you threw Alpharegon into the mix. Ninja's in power armour is all too badarse, yet again, the mind destroying. This is all asuming its a no holds bar contest where in the E's emotional attatchments are cast out the window, which is what the OP is portraying? If so then, mind blorch for the win.

 

Vulkan, as impressive as he is, wouldn't stand much of a chance because he's in essence, a black smith. Mind blorch.

 

Dorn? Perturabo? While they are respectively building defenses and weapons the same would happen, the E doesn't need to waste time doing what he does best, Mind blorch.

 

Khan, see Russ/Angron.

 

I'd say Ferrus Manus would have a more than fair chance what with the most indestructable material making up his bashy arms of doom, but still Mind blorch.

 

The Johnson and Guilliman would be epic, as much as people hate on them they were the two who were the most tactically astute. Johnson lacked any emotion so he could do what was nessecary, Guilliman was vain and proud which is the key element to stubborness and ignorance, something which counts for a heck of a lot in a fight. But ultimately, Mind blorch.

 

I stress the fact that all of the Primarchs are insanely strong and have bucket loads of stamina and constitution to spare, but I think only two of them are even remotely psychically defended, and even then, that pales in comparison to the E's psyker powers.

 

Horus is a toughie, without Chaos, he's effectively crap. Everyone goes on about how amazing a leader he was, so does the fluff, but thats it, he's got charisma to boot and people warm to his naturally calm nature. Otherwise he was the same as the other Primarchs who didn't have that nifty edge over the others.

 

With Chaos, he was full of blorchy win. He bested other Primarchs, brought worlds to their knee's. Buuuuuuuuut~ he still did it as a Leader, he was barely on the front lines at all. I'm using HH and CV as my references here so feel free to contradict me. Infact, it was other Primarchs who did his dirty work for him, which is the sign of a great mind, why do it yourself when there are others suited to the task? Still with all the chaosy powers attributed to him he was still Mind blorched.

 

4, and I repeat 4 chaos gods placed insane amounts of power into Horus, ultimately making him one of the most powerful forces in the universe.

 

And as mashed up as the Big E was, it still only took him one blow to smite that and cause the Gods to retreat.

 

I love the Ruinous powers as much as the next guy but what i'm thinking is people aren't overpowering the Emperor, they are underestimating him.

Call me a fanboy, that's your opinion, I call myself a thinker.

 

He bested a Necrotyr God.

Created the most perfect beings in the galaxy.

Created hundreds of thousands of their clones.

Perfected humanity and in my opinon THE most amazing accomplishment, united Terra under one cause.

He blinked and scoured Daemons from warptainted environments back into the Warp when their link to the material realm was complete.

He let Horus wail on him, to be honest, if my son had thrown the tantrum of all tantrums and started to beat on me, i'd let him, I wouldn't hit him back because he was my son and I love him. Yet the moment he would strike another sibling because of his anger against me, well i'd slap the little git upside the head.

 

Did I mention the 4 gods and their champion which he willed to die? Yeah, I did.

 

All of this is my opinion based on the facts (and I use this term very loosely when in reference with GW's IP) I have been presented with.

 

Horus was uber, even more so with the 4 powers united for once behind him.

All the Primarchs are swish, can all do swish things.

 

But the Emperor is the pimpus maximus. He is the be all and end all. Thats how it was meant to be in the fluff and thats what i've come to sit well with. He's not just portrayed as Mankinds god, he is portrayed AS God. The most powerful and influential force in the galaxy and possibly the universe.

 

I'm not attacking anyone on this board at all in my post, and if you think I have then to be honest, I couldn't really care. We're all cyincal to a tee and want to venerate our Primarch/God/Awesome dude in the best way possible, i've just tried to lay down the facts before me.

 

 

Now if we are to take in the Emotional side of things, then it already happened and is the core basis for the Imperium vs Chaos so theres no point covering that.

 

Just my two imagineer points.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

Thanks guys, for leaving him for me to tear apart ;)

 

Pushed the Gods back? Really? Just how deluded are you? The Chaos Gods are what the Emperor draws power from he is a psyker after all. Duh.

[The Emperor's Champion]

Thanks guys, for leaving him for me to tear apart ^_^

 

Pushed the Gods back? Really? Just how deluded are you? The Chaos Gods are what the Emperor draws power from he is a psyker after all. Duh.

No.

 

Warp 101:

The Warp is the source of psychic powers.

The Chaos Gods are a type of Warp God. They are not one and the same.

Warp Gods only live IN the Warp.

Sorcery is the magic granted by the Chaos Gods.

The Emperor is a Warp God (akin to the Eldar Gods).

[UltimateJake]

Thanks guys, for leaving him for me to tear apart ^_^

 

Pushed the Gods back? Really? Just how deluded are you? The Chaos Gods are what the Emperor draws power from he is a psyker after all. Duh.

No.

 

Warp 101:

The Warp is the source of psychic powers.

The Chaos Gods are a type of Warp God. They are not one and the same.

Warp Gods only live IN the Warp.

Sorcery is the magic granted by the Chaos Gods.

The Emperor is a Warp God (akin to the Eldar Gods).

 

Yes DarkApostleThirst. It seems to me that a lot of people tend to forget that the Chaos Gods are not the only ones in the Warp. Their are hundreds of other lesser entities and the Warp is something psykers draw power from so the Chaos Gods really have nothing over the Emperor. The only thing that the Chaos Gods can do is use weaker psykers as pawns to tear open a hole in the real universe allowing their daemons to pour in and they can also possess the others. But. TEC covered it all so no arguments here.

[UltimateJake]

Thanks guys, for leaving him for me to tear apart ^_^

 

Pushed the Gods back? Really? Just how deluded are you? The Chaos Gods are what the Emperor draws power from he is a psyker after all. Duh.

No.

 

Warp 101:

The Warp is the source of psychic powers.

The Chaos Gods are a type of Warp God. They are not one and the same.

Warp Gods only live IN the Warp.

Sorcery is the magic granted by the Chaos Gods.

The Emperor is a Warp God (akin to the Eldar Gods).

 

Yes DarkApostleThirst. It seems to me that a lot of people tend to forget that the Chaos Gods are not the only ones in the Warp. Their are hundreds of other lesser entities and the Warp is something psykers draw power from so the Chaos Gods really have nothing over the Emperor. The only thing that the Chaos Gods can do is use weaker psykers as pawns to tear open a hole in the real universe allowing their daemons to pour in and they can also possess the others. But. TEC covered it all so no arguments here.

[Monstra Sumus]

Thanks guys, for leaving him for me to tear apart ;)

 

Pushed the Gods back? Really? Just how deluded are you? The Chaos Gods are what the Emperor draws power from he is a psyker after all. Duh.

 

At the end of the day my friend, I believe that the Chaos gods as they call themselves are nothing more than just Greater Daemons, albiet, extremely powerful ones. Psykers do not draw their power from them, as TEC stated, they draw it from the warp itself which is the mirror of emotion in the material realm.

 

The Chaos Gods do not own the Warp.

 

I did not say that he pushed them back, merely caused them to retreat which they did. Two different things.

 

But as I said, its my opinion and feel free to have your opinion, its what your entitled to.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

Thanks guys, for leaving him for me to tear apart ;)

 

Pushed the Gods back? Really? Just how deluded are you? The Chaos Gods are what the Emperor draws power from he is a psyker after all. Duh.

 

At the end of the day my friend, I believe that the Chaos gods as they call themselves are nothing more than just Greater Daemons, albiet, extremely powerful ones. Psykers do not draw their power from them, as TEC stated, they draw it from the warp itself which is the mirror of emotion in the material realm.

 

The Chaos Gods do not own the Warp.

 

I did not say that he pushed them back, merely caused them to retreat which they did. Two different things.

 

But as I said, its my opinion and feel free to have your opinion, its what your entitled to.

 

Your are wrong.

 

They aren't Greater Daemons. They are all the rage, hope, despair, and pleasure that mankind is generating. They don't own they warp, they are the warp.

 

They chose to retreat because they planned to betray Horus, this has been said in the fluff in various ways. In Codex : Chaos Space Marines, it says that he hesitated. No servant of the Gods, who are fully influenced by them, would do that. That he did suggests that they withdrew their support from Horus, so that they might betray him and provide more amusement for themselves. In Honor Among Fiends, a short story in Heroes of the Space Marines, the main character realizes that the Dark Gods had always intended to betray him as amusement, just like they eternally torment him.

 

Apoligies for not having a complete post before, a very important visitor arrived unexpectedly.

[The Emperor's Champion]

They aren't Greater Daemons. They are all the rage, hope, despair, and pleasure that mankind is generating. They don't own they warp, they are the warp.

No. The Chaos Gods are only a small part of the Warp.

The Warp is the Sea Of Souls, only a fraction of those souls belong to a Chaos God's might.

 

 

Thanks guys, for leaving him for me to tear apart ;)

 

Pushed the Gods back? Really? Just how deluded are you? The Chaos Gods are what the Emperor draws power from he is a psyker after all. Duh.

 

At the end of the day my friend, I believe that the Chaos gods as they call themselves are nothing more than just Greater Daemons, albiet, extremely powerful ones. Psykers do not draw their power from them, as TEC stated, they draw it from the warp itself which is the mirror of emotion in the material realm.

 

The Chaos Gods do not own the Warp.

 

I did not say that he pushed them back, merely caused them to retreat which they did. Two different things.

 

But as I said, its my opinion and feel free to have your opinion, its what your entitled to.

Actually Greater (/all)Demons are fragments of the Chaos Gods. You could say demons are sorta like the cells in the body of a Chaos God, and sorcerous power is sorta like the blood flowing through it. The demons the Imperium faces are simply parts that are tasked to act act on their own, and sorcerers are just channeling some of a god's power.

It's really complicated to get a proper understanding of Chaos and demons, but between the Daemon Codex and Realms Of Chaos you can get a decent grasp on it.

[Monstra Sumus]

Actually Greater (/all)Demons are fragments of the Chaos Gods. You could say demons are sorta like the cells in the body of a Chaos God, and sorcerous power is sorta like the blood flowing through it. The demons the Imperium faces are simply parts that are tasked to act act on their own, and sorcerers are just channeling some of a god's power.

It's really complicated to get a proper understanding of Chaos and demons, but between the Daemon Codex and Realms Of Chaos you can get a decent grasp on it.

 

Thanks for enlightening me fella, I dont have access to many of the Codexes so i'm basing my opinions on what I know and the resources available to me.

 

 

Your are wrong.

 

They aren't Greater Daemons. They are all the rage, hope, despair, and pleasure that mankind is generating. They don't own they warp, they are the warp.

 

They chose to retreat because they planned to betray Horus, this has been said in the fluff in various ways. In Codex : Chaos Space Marines, it says that he hesitated. No servant of the Gods, who are fully influenced by them, would do that. That he did suggests that they withdrew their support from Horus, so that they might betray him and provide more amusement for themselves. In Honor Among Fiends, a short story in Heroes of the Space Marines, the main character realizes that the Dark Gods had always intended to betray him as amusement, just like they eternally torment him.

 

Apoligies for not having a complete post before, a very important visitor arrived unexpectedly.

 

I may be wrong in your eyes and many others, but it is my opinion.

 

Just as you have yours, backed up by what ever resources you have at your disposal.

That is what a discussion is based on, not 'tearing' eachother apart. In my original post I was addressing the question the OP asked, not nessecarily the one about Horus, nor the Chaos gods which went on for a while. I suggested he forced them to retreat from Horus which is what happened, regardless of wether they had planned it or not.

 

I'll be completely honest and say the literature behind the Chaos Gods and Daemons is not a strong point, for I have no interest in collecting or buying a Chaos/Daemon army. If others would like to help me further my understanding of this subject then i'm happy with that and will humbly accept others more expert knowledge.

 

Not be told I'm wrong for having an opinion based on what I know and insulted.

 

Civility is what keeps a discussion a discussion and not an argument.

[UltimateJake]

Thanks guys, for leaving him for me to tear apart :rolleyes:

 

Pushed the Gods back? Really? Just how deluded are you? The Chaos Gods are what the Emperor draws power from he is a psyker after all. Duh.

 

At the end of the day my friend, I believe that the Chaos gods as they call themselves are nothing more than just Greater Daemons, albiet, extremely powerful ones. Psykers do not draw their power from them, as TEC stated, they draw it from the warp itself which is the mirror of emotion in the material realm.

 

The Chaos Gods do not own the Warp.

 

I did not say that he pushed them back, merely caused them to retreat which they did. Two different things.

 

But as I said, its my opinion and feel free to have your opinion, its what your entitled to.

 

Your are wrong.

 

They aren't Greater Daemons. They are all the rage, hope, despair, and pleasure that mankind is generating. They don't own they warp, they are the warp.

 

They chose to retreat because they planned to betray Horus, this has been said in the fluff in various ways. In Codex : Chaos Space Marines, it says that he hesitated. No servant of the Gods, who are fully influenced by them, would do that. That he did suggests that they withdrew their support from Horus, so that they might betray him and provide more amusement for themselves. In Honor Among Fiends, a short story in Heroes of the Space Marines, the main character realizes that the Dark Gods had always intended to betray him as amusement, just like they eternally torment him.

 

Apoligies for not having a complete post before, a very important visitor arrived unexpectedly.

 

No the Warp is just their kingdom. (well actually it is a place for souls and stuff like that) If the Chaos Gods were the Warp then all the psykers and humanity would be doomed, but they are not because the Chaos Gods are not. As said before it is a domain for gods and entities and souls. It is the Immaterium Realm where the Chaos Gods just happen to be some of the big shots. But, their are other gods and possibly some a bit more powerful. The Chaos Gods are just inhabbitting a small corner of the Warp, there are other gods and entities around.

 

I am not saying the Chaos Gods are weak, because they are not. They are just not the strongest out there. (well maybe they are, we don't have info on other things in the Warp so this is up to debate) But, it has been expicitly stated that the Warp is not the Chaos Gods themselves. It is where they live.

[Innus Bade 9]

One primarch. Does no one remember Horus killed him

[The Emperor's Champion]

You mean aside from The Emperor still being alive and the whole one shot killing Horus thing?