How Many Primarchs would it take to beat the Emperor

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

Actually there is several other deities that I know of which would likely be in the Warp:

 

Gork and Mork. The Ork Gods and they have to exist because of the Waagh's they instill in their weird-boys and such.

Malice: Renegade chaos god who is likely in the Warp.

 

And I think the Chaos Gods would enjoy nothing more than destroying the Imperium and letting the humans be independent. Imagine how many emotions several smaller empires would generate. Imagine the emotions and the constant madness. Sounds very chaosy and entertaining to me.

 

And as for the gods being made up of emotions by your logic then daemons and other things are too thus making them part of the Warp. But, they are not. They are merely living in the Warp as I have stated numerous times.

Gork and Mork... I don't know. Never read the Ork codex.

 

Malice is a chaos god, he just isn't as widely known or as powerful as the other four.

 

But daemons and other things are part of the warp...? Why would they be just living in the Warp, I mean they are part of the Chaos God in question...?

 

You speculate, as well as I do, on what the Gods want. The closest we know what they want is this:

 

Tzeentch - Just to keep schemeing for all eternity. The Imperium helps that.

 

Khorne - Blood to flow and skulls to be split, again the Imperium helps that because it causes eternal war.

 

Nurgle - spread his plagues, again helped by the Imperium.

 

Slaanesh - Not sure.

 

I think they want to keep the Imperium.

[UltimateJake]

I agree with you on the no one knowing what the gods want.

 

But, other than that daemons are part of the god they come from and may be absorbed back at any time. And since the Chaos Gods aren't part of the Warp then...see where I am going. ;)

 

We should really think about starting up a 40k Debate Topic or Debate Team. :lol:

[The Emperor's Champion]

40k basically has 3 types of gods.

C'Tan

Warp Gods

Physical/Warp Gods

 

 

 

Warp Gods:

Chaos Gods - Beings made up of the collective souls of those who were dedicated to their aspects. They awoke when enough souls dedicated to their aspects had died and gathered together in the Warp. They obviously have the most commonly known "demons" made up of fragments of the gods who were tasked with some autonomous purpose. Each demon being the reflection of one of the souls that makes up its patron god.

 

Ork Gods - Gork and Mork were created, like the Chaos Gods, from Orks dedicated to them. Orks as a whole are a weird manifestation of the entire concept of how Warp creatures are made. All their technology and Waaagh! powers are generated in much the same fashion. No obvious "demons" per se, but since Waaagh! powers are analogous to Chaos' sorcery it could be said that every ork is sort of possessed, and Ghazkull might be seen as a sort of Demon Prince channeling Gork and Mork.

 

 

Physical/Warp Gods:

Eldar Gods - Both physical and Warp energy beings who once walked among their people but mostly chose later to exist only in the Warp. Through war with the Chaos Gods some of them have died. Isha still lives as a prisoner in the Garden Of Nurgle. Khaine was forced back into physical reality by Khorne and Slaanesh, and was fragmented into his many Avatars in the process. Cegorach still exists just as he always has. Ynnead is a new Eldar god being created the same way Slaanesh was. Vaul is still chained to his anvil where Khaine left him. etc etc. By no means are the Eldar gods all dead. It could be that since the Eldar gods mirror The Emperor in their physical leadership being given up for pure Warp forms, that they also mirror The Emperor in having risen to leadership of the Eldar because they were born among the mortals of the Eldar race.

The Eldar race's "demons" come in the form of the Avatar of Khaine which is basically a Demon Prince formed from a shard of Khaine which possesses a chosen Aspect Warrior, the Phoenix Lords which are the souls of the greatest Eldar Warriors haunting their armor and possessing the warrior who dons it, and the Wraith Lords and Wraith Guard who are somewhat similar to demon engines in that they are the souls of the fallen possessing war machines.

 

The God-Emperor - Like the Chaos Gods, The Emperor was created through the combination of thousands of souls. In this case the souls of thousands of psyker shamans who committed ritual suicide with the express purpose of joining together and being reborn as a single immortal entity who could lead and protect mankind forever. Like the Eldar gods before him, The Emperor lives among his people; and like the Eldar gods he exists as both ha physical and a Warp entity. When The Emperor finally sheds his mortal form he will exist as purely a Warp entity (the Star Child). Although, it is possible that he will be reborn as he was originally created and return in physical form to once again lead mankind to dominate the stars. It seems highly possible that, like the shamans before them, all of the countless souls who die in service to The Emperor on a daily basis (or at least many of them) join with The Emperor's Warp form and make his power constantly grow. The Emperor's "sorcerers" appear to be the Sisters Of Battle and those others who call upon his power to perform "miracles". His "possessed" or "Demon Princes" seem to be his Living Saints which appear to be the souls of fallen heroes who have returned to possess their own bodies and appear to be able to "reknit host form" the same way a Daemonhost does.

 

 

Star Gods:

The C'tan - Like the Physical/Warp Gods, the C'Tan have a dual nature of being both physical and pure energy creatures. But unlike their Warpy foes their physical forms were created by mortals and are more or less just "possessed" by the pure energy star vampires that the C'Tan naturally are. Unlike all the other gods of 40k the C'Tan have no affiliation with the Warp whatsoever and so do not draw power from the souls of their followers. Indeed the Necrons are said to be soulless. Of all the creatures called "gods" in 40k the C'Tan are probably the least deserving of that distinction. They are merely alien creatures of vast and unfathomable, but limited, power (rather than having anything to do with believers or souls or life after death). Since they are not "gods" in the same sense as the Warp Gods they do not have anything mimicking the "demon" creating use of souls. The closest they get is their own "possession" of their Necrodermises.

 

 

 

 

 

What I want to know is how much of this pattern that all the Warp Gods follow was intentional on GW's part, how much of it was just lack of new ideas, and how much was just pure coincidence.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[TECDB]

[Walter Payton]

What I find interesting is that Nurgle is genuinely in love with Isha. He just is a chaos god, so he shows his love in the only way he can-giving her diseases.

 

And, just to be fluff Nazi, Malice must be a pretty damn minor god, seeing as how the Sons were able to actually summon him. He is also, therefore, not in the warp, he is in realspace.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

Wow.

 

That clarified many things.

 

A few things I still have to say though, is that

 

1) Sorry about all the Eldar Gods being dead, I haven't read the Eldar codex either. I just knew about the two I mentioned.

 

Most of them were killed though, am I right?

 

2) The Emperor was originally a psyker... What you said about him is an almost an entirely different being. The Emperor was/is mortal, because Horus nearly killed him, but what you described I could totally see happening. I just haven't been able to see any of the discusssions on that yet.

 

Other than that, that was mostly what I was saying... and what you were saying. ;)

[The Emperor's Champion]

What I find interesting is that Nurgle is genuinely in love with Isha. He just is a chaos god, so he shows his love in the only way he can-giving her diseases.

 

And, just to be fluff Nazi, Malice must be a pretty damn minor god, seeing as how the Sons were able to actually summon him. He is also, therefore, not in the warp, he is in realspace.

Interesting point (I refuse to call him anything but Malal tho :o) about him being able to manifest in reality, but then I guess that's not really out of the question for the Chaos Gods since their demons can manifest in reality. The difference here being that Malal and the other Chaos Gods would manifest as a demon made of Warp stuff while The Emperor and Eldar Gods have/had actual physical bodies that actually belong in reality.

I don't think it's so much a matter of Malal showing up when summoned because he's a minor god, but rather I think he showed up because he's not really evil. He's the god of the oppressed and abused rebelling against their oppressors, and the god of Chaos destroying Chaos. It sorta makes sense that he'd show up to lend a hand for his favorite Chaos hunting minions if asked.

 

I think like 2/3rds of the Eldar gods are dead. I have a hard time remembering them all.

[Dudds]

I think like 2/3rds of the Eldar gods are dead. I have a hard time remembering them all.

[TECDB]

 

I believe that's about right. I think the only remaining are Kaela Mensha Khaine, if you consider his shattering in the material realm remaining. Isha, who's the captive of Nurgle, and Cegorach the Harlequin god. Although the Eldar believe in the birth of a new god Ynnead, who will be be realised in the same way Slaanesh was realised, only Ynnead will be the destroyer of Slaanesh. As I understand it, the birth of Slaanesh was the result of the Eldar races depravity. The remaining Eldar believe through restoration of their virtues, the souls that pass on will feed Ynnead and through their own self sacrifice (in battle, not suicide, that would be bad), they can redeem what they have done (at the cost of their race some believe).

 

The birth of Slaanesh and the growth of Ynnead, contradict the idea that the Chaos Gods are the warp. It leans towards the idea that Khorne, Nurgle etc are the stronger occurances of the warp. Like the North atlantic drift or Gulf stream, they're not the only winds, but they're more powerful/important than most others. The reason they are more powerful is because they have a larger following and therefore more source of power, their vast following gives them the power to manifest themeselves in the form of Daemons, something the minor gods with smaller followings simply don't have the power to do. In other words it suggests the four Chaos Gods are simply the strongest entities with in the warp.

 

As I understand the Chaos Gods generally don't care what happens in the material realm, unless it poses a threat to them. As the Emperor is a reincarnation with the intention of preventing humanity from falling to Chaos, this was one of those rare instances where fighting each other didn't take precedence. So yes, like TAD has mentioned the Emperor is a Psyker not a God, however he was, as I understand, reincarnated as an Immortal being. So in response to the OP, take away the fact that Horus was infused with the power of all the Chaos Gods at the time of the Heresy, and he's just normal Horus, then the question is surely void? As the Emperor is Immortal, and the point of being Immortal is you don't die....unless ofcourse someone channelling the energy of the warp slaps you about. Twenty Mortals vs One Immortal is still an unfair fight, whatever time of day you have it.

 

P.S. The whole Emperor holding back on Horus thing in the final fight is irrelevant really, Horus was too weak minded (or maybe strong willed, depending on perspective) to finish the job, and now he's dead, and you can't claim you won, if you're dead.

Unless you have people to claim you're not dead, like the Emperor, or Elvis. Either way he doesn't, so he loses.

 

This is my interpretation of the fluff, I don't want to offend anyone or claim they're wrong this is purely how I've looked at it.

[The 13th Goat]

But daemons and other things are part of the warp...? Why would they be just living in the Warp, I mean they are part of the Chaos God in question...?

 

But are they? Codex: Deamons indicates alot of autonomy amougst Deamons and their kind. One Khorne Prince actually attacked Khorne himself! As they are described as denzines of the Warp, i think its safe to assume their not warp incarnate. I mean, Marduk in the Word Bearers series actually floats through the warp and see's them moving around, surrounding people's soul lights.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

But daemons and other things are part of the warp...? Why would they be just living in the Warp, I mean they are part of the Chaos God in question...?

 

But are they? Codex: Deamons indicates alot of autonomy amougst Deamons and their kind. One Khorne Prince actually attacked Khorne himself! As they are described as denzines of the Warp, i think its safe to assume their not warp incarnate. I mean, Marduk in the Word Bearers series actually floats through the warp and see's them moving around, surrounding people's soul lights.

No, I think pretty much everyone that will agree that greater daemons are part of the chaos god in question. Attacking himself with a subentity of himself is just the thing that Khorne would do.

 

They have their own sentience, but they are still part of that god.

 

On the Warp things... Again, they are the Warp. But its more like take a bit of the Warp, seperate it from the rest, give it a twisted, fiendish brain, and you have a daemon. The Daemon can control the bit of the Warp its made out of and can distinguish itself from the nonsentient part of the Warp. The greatest, which are the Gods, can even affect the rest of the Warp and have their own subentities. Heck, some Greater Daemons can have their own subentities. Look at the second space wolf book, Ragnar fights a Graetor Daemon that spawns minions out of its own fesces. (He was a Great Unclean One, in case you couldn't guess).

 

On that note, I am not sure if they had their own intelligence or if they were simply extensions of the

Greator Daemons will.