Captain Juan Juarez Posted February 17, 2010 Share Posted February 17, 2010 (edited) Below is the beginnings of an article I decided to write after persuing peoples thoughts regarding the loyalty of the Space Marines in an Amicus Aedes thread I started. I have decided to post up the beginnings of the article simply because that whilst my girlfriend, the only reader so far, understands everything that is in the piece it doesn't really mean much to her.. So i thought I would go for a wider veiw of what is included. Please note though that this is not a finished work, really it is barely the beginning and there is a hard slog to go. I do hope you appreciate the points I have made, also it is worth noting that, as I stated a couple of times, these opinions are my own and are informed by my own experience and beliefs; so you are free to disagree! ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ The Astartes and Loyalty The purpose of this article is to examine in detail the concept of loyalty as it relates to the Adeptus Astartes. First though, I feel it is important to examine the concept of loyalty as a real world concept before we can seek to understand how the Astartes may view such a thing. Loyalty is defined thusly: Edited March 23, 2010 by Captain Juan Juarez Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted February 17, 2010 Share Posted February 17, 2010 Loyalty is defined thusly:1. Unswerving in allegiance 2. Faithful in allegiance to one's lawful sovereign or government 3. Faithful to a private person to whom fidelity is due 4. Faithful to a cause, ideal, custom, institution, or product 5. The state of being loyal; fidelity (Source: wiktionary) If you want this in the Librarium you'd be better off using a real dictionary. ;) Also, "lawful"? A section on what constitutes lawfulness in the Great Crusade would be very useful here. Personally I think a lot hinged on that - in an empire that is seemingly run on the rule of might makes right, that creates all kinds of ideological problems should the leader change the definition of what is right. Perhaps you could tie that in to the introduction of the administrators to the Great Crusade and the replacement of the War Council with the Council of Terra. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Juan Juarez Posted February 17, 2010 Author Share Posted February 17, 2010 (edited) If you want this in the Librarium you'd be better off using a real dictionary. ;) Also, "lawful"? A section on what constitutes lawfulness in the Great Crusade would be very useful here. Personally I think a lot hinged on that - in an empire that is seemingly run on the rule of might makes right, that creates all kinds of ideological problems should the leader change the definition of what is right. Perhaps you could tie that in to the introduction of the administrators to the Great Crusade and the replacement of the War Council with the Council of Terra. I'm actually quite impressed, because I honestly cringed when I saw you had replied to the thread! This is not even a rough draft, as it isn't even half finished yet but to be honest the quote is the more important part of it, but I just chucked in the C/P from wiktionary to begin with until I finalise it more. Lawfulness: I will be discussing in a section all its own as there is a great deal of difference between this during the GC/HH and the "now". The Administratum I considered discussing, but was unsure whether to do a sidebar on it or include within the section about what is lawful and changing masters. Edited February 17, 2010 by Captain Juan Juarez Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Hunter Ydalir Posted February 17, 2010 Share Posted February 17, 2010 Something to think on. When you say loyalty should run up the command line, the fact is that at the end of the day most frontline soldiers have a much stronger bond with their squadmates, the ones they suffer and die alongside than anyone outside their tightly knit group. Yes they follow orders for the most part, it is part of their training and also part of their extended loyalty to their country. I suppose what I'm saying is that in terms of the Heresy, the traitor marines may well have sided with their primarch and the rest of their legion since they were the ones they bled with every day and as such had more respect for and a much closer bond with than any over-extended galactic commander that the individual marines may not have had any contact with for some time. An officer that leads from the front is naturally more respected by his men than his opposite. Though the Emperor was at the forefront of the Great Crusade in the beginning, by the time it had become over-extended and the marines and even the primarchs had little contact with their esteemed leader, the bonds of loyalty will fade. I like what you have already though and I think it's a good article in particular for DIY'ing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Juan Juarez Posted February 18, 2010 Author Share Posted February 18, 2010 That was one of the notions I had, GHY, that because the Emperor was such a far off concept, very much abstract, and that few Marines barring perhaps the Terran ones would have been in the same campaign as Him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Juan Juarez Posted February 18, 2010 Author Share Posted February 18, 2010 Bump... For the update! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Hunter Ydalir Posted February 20, 2010 Share Posted February 20, 2010 Too many mini-paragraphs in the Badab War section I think, it just doesn't look all that attractive when one line is constantly finishing and moving to the next line down when a relative piece of information should not be bumped down needlessly. That said I do that a lot myself when working straight onto a 'finished' piece. The addition of the 'proper' dictionary quote makes it look rather proper as well. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Juan Juarez Posted February 20, 2010 Author Share Posted February 20, 2010 Structuring is not my strongpoint unfortunately! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavin Posted February 24, 2010 Share Posted February 24, 2010 A Brother-Marine would feel the deepest loyalty to his squad-mates, though that is by no means to say that a Primarch would not feel a deep loyalty to his Primarch, just that he would not have day to day contact with him as unless he was a senior officer in the Legion. I’m not quite sure where this thought went wrong… but did you mean: “… no means to say that a marine would not feel a deep loyalty to his Primarch, just that he…” Or did you mean: “… to say that a Primarch would not feel a deep loyalty to his brother Primarchs, just that…” I may be misreading it, but it’s not a very clear passage to me. It is said that loyalty runs up the chain of command rather than down, but I believe that this is not the case for the Legions and perhaps even the opposite is true. This was perhaps one of the main contributing factors to the Heresy; that the Primarch was so loyal to his Marines, how could a Marine fail to do any less? Granted, I’m new to the game and only 2 books and roughly 50 pages into Galaxy in Flames of The Horus Heresy series, but I’d say that the Heresy reinforced the aspect of loyalty running up the chain. Battle-brother to squad leader to company commander to Primarch, (and then ultimately to either the Emperor {loyalist} or the Warmaster {traitor}), it doesn’t reach the Emperor thought because he is merely an abstract at the point in time and The Primarchs, Horus above all others, are basically the ‘top’ of the command chain. At the same time, it also shows that even the Astartes were showing some thoughts as to whether or not their loyalty was being misplaced in the Warmaster after the Davin incidents. But, so far it is definitely well thought and written. I’m looking forward to seeing it more refined. May the Emperor (or Ruinous Powers... your choice) guide you in this undertaking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Hunter Ydalir Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 I’m not quite sure where this thought went wrong… but did you mean: I think he meant to say: A Brother-Marine would feel the deepest loyalty to his squad-mates, though that is by no means to say that a Marine would not feel a deep loyalty to his Primarch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Juan Juarez Posted February 25, 2010 Author Share Posted February 25, 2010 Well spotted on that one... Brain may have gone a bit mental at that point, but now edited! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavin Posted February 26, 2010 Share Posted February 26, 2010 (edited) No problem, spell check is nice, but (in my experiences) it doesn't catch things like that normally. I love to write short stories and have a nasty habit of doing things like that myself when I try to write technical papers. It's trying to concisely transmit large volumes of data in such a structured way that gets me like that. Edited February 26, 2010 by Gavin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walter Payton Posted March 7, 2010 Share Posted March 7, 2010 If you want this in the Librarium you'd be better off using a real dictionary. ;) Also, "lawful"? A section on what constitutes lawfulness in the Great Crusade would be very useful here. Personally I think a lot hinged on that - in an empire that is seemingly run on the rule of might makes right, that creates all kinds of ideological problems should the leader change the definition of what is right. Perhaps you could tie that in to the introduction of the administrators to the Great Crusade and the replacement of the War Council with the Council of Terra. I'm actually quite impressed, because I honestly cringed when I saw you had replied to the thread! Meh, he ain't that bad. Only Octavulg has that effect on me. If words are like bullets, he is packing a vulcan mega-bolter... I love the thing, so keep up the good work! ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Hunter Ydalir Posted March 12, 2010 Share Posted March 12, 2010 Meh, he ain't that bad. Tyrak can tear holes in anything just as well as anyone else. Octavulg is the exception in the manner in which he tears your work to pieces. Bit of hero worship there Alecto? ;) On a more relative note, are you going to keep updating this CJJ? It seems to have fallen by the wayside lately, I'd like to see it added to the Liber (as a sticky) and the Librarium frankly. It's these types of psychological insights that can really help a DIYer with creating his Chapter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Juan Juarez Posted March 12, 2010 Author Share Posted March 12, 2010 I've been a bit distracted lately, by my work in the Liber mainly. I havn't really though about expanding it to be honest.. Though I often check back to see who has read or commented. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walter Payton Posted March 13, 2010 Share Posted March 13, 2010 Meh, he ain't that bad. Tyrak can tear holes in anything just as well as anyone else. Octavulg is the exception in the manner in which he tears your work to pieces. Bit of hero worship there Alecto? No, but if Tyrak replies I know that he is going to tear holes in it delicately, whereas Octavulg just kicks the door in. He also never says, 'good job', in a way that Tyrak (occassionally) does. Which is why he is so useful. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Juan Juarez Posted March 13, 2010 Author Share Posted March 13, 2010 Glad this "article" is generating such in depth discussion :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malthe Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 I have decided to post up the beginnings of the article simply because that whilst my girlfriend, the only reader so far, understands everything that is in the piece it doesn't really mean much to her... In the interest of a cotinued in depth discussion: Sigged :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dosjetka Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 I would like to see some further work done on this, as it is good, but remains unfinished. By the way, CJJ, if you would like more info about the Badab War, there's the Imperial Armour books about the Badab War (some things that I have read in the books seems different from what you've written). Ludovic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Juan Juarez Posted January 7, 2012 Author Share Posted January 7, 2012 This is an oldie :lol: There wan't much for the Badab War when I composed this, not compared to wealth of information available with the Imperial Armour books - which I owned before I gave them away :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pulse Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 (edited) Lots of work to be done here old chap to pull this off. Edited January 8, 2012 by Pulse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyrion Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Excellent start to what could be an amazing article in my humble opinion. Now...for my two cents, pence, or whatever. With regards to loyalty, you're structuring of how loyalty flows generally holds true. Smallest unit to largest in this case. In the mind of an Astartes, this becomes even more simplified because the indoctrination they go through is thorough to the extreme. They are trained to rarely, if ever, question their superiors and are rewarded when they act accordingly in order to reinforce that mindset. I agree with your assertion that it was the proximity of the Emperor at one time or another to the Astartes that influenced their loyalty to him versus their Primarchs. I say Primarchs specifically because I argue that the loyalists from the Traitor Legions most certainly thought they were remaining loyal to the 'essence' of their respective Legions. This is a concept I think you could expound upon greatly when discussing loyalty in its various forms. Some Marines felt more loyalty to individuals rather than the ideals they were supposedly fighting for whereas others felt more loyalty to the idea of the 'Imperial Truth,' regardless of whom was at the forefront of spreading that ideal. Lastly, I would like to point out that the Emperor essentially created a separate chain of command when he appointed Horus as Warmaster. Prior to that appointment, the chain of command went something like this. Emperor > Primarch > Legion > Chapter > Company > Squad Then, the Emperor decided to leave for his pet project back on Terra and created the following: Emperor | Horus > Primarch > Legion > Chapter > Company > Squad The above model implies that yes, the Emperor is still superior to Horus, but only just so. Further, Horus is no longer accountable to anyone, and it is that split, combined with the Emperor's absence from his warriors, that created a leadership vacuum just waiting to be filled. Above all, the Astartes were created by the Emperor, for the Imperium. Once he removed himself from the equation so to speak, there were a great number of Marines and Primarchs who felt betrayed and abandoned. All in all, just food for thought, and I hope this contributes to your efforts in some way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Sergeant Bohemond Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 A great start and an interesting read. I thought that the traitor Legions tried to rationalise their treachery that it was the Emperor that lied to them snd betrayed them first and therefore were 'absolved' of guilt as it were. Something to ponder on :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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