Raulmichile Posted March 25, 2010 Share Posted March 25, 2010 Wasn't Angron in one of the Tales of Heresy short stories? Wasn't he pants-on-head maniac? More or less, but the story is after he was "rescued" by the Emperor. I always have thought why the Emperor haven't taken action a few minutes before he did and aided Angron's army instead of only kidnaping him. The only reason I find is that literally it was impossible; maybe by the time the Emperor arrived to the planet the final battle has begun or was just about to begin and the only thing he could do was vanishing Angron back to his ship. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/194998-nature-of-the-hersey-and-rethinking-the-state-of-the-union/page/2/#findComment-2332791 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Mechanicum Posted March 26, 2010 Share Posted March 26, 2010 Angron says the fight hadn't begun yet. And even then, I think the Emperor teleporting with the War Hounds would have had the other army screaming and dying and then there we go. Angron likes the emperor and has seen his children fight. No angry at emperor red man, just I'm a fighter who gets things done the easy way. No Surrender. And any arguments on the no surrender: Every legion had the one time ultimatum of obey or die. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/194998-nature-of-the-hersey-and-rethinking-the-state-of-the-union/page/2/#findComment-2334206 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Angel Posted March 26, 2010 Share Posted March 26, 2010 I'll post a more detailed thought process when I have my books infornt of me to quote; but in short I don't think the HH was an accident, or test or mistake. I think the Emperor worked real hard to make sure it happened and that thoughs particular legions rebelled. The question you need to ask yourself is why? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/194998-nature-of-the-hersey-and-rethinking-the-state-of-the-union/page/2/#findComment-2335016 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mob16151 Posted March 26, 2010 Share Posted March 26, 2010 I'll post a more detailed thought process when I have my books infornt of me to quote; but in short I don't think the HH was an accident, or test or mistake. I think the Emperor worked real hard to make sure it happened and that thoughs particular legions rebelled. The question you need to ask yourself is why? I dont think so myself. I just think the Emperor managed to blind himself to the faults of his Homo Superior "sons". If they all represented an aspect of himself, I imagine it would be like waking up and finding your left arm had just up and decided to rebel against you. I mean they are/were the true physical manisfestations of his will. And since they had pretty well behaved themselves the last 2 centuries before the Heresy, why wouldn't he be suprised at what happened? I agree the Emperor could have been more consistent in his treatment of them,which likely would have cemented there loyalty even further. However not even HE is perfect. And the only primarch's I really feel for are Angron,Cruze and Magnus. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/194998-nature-of-the-hersey-and-rethinking-the-state-of-the-union/page/2/#findComment-2335039 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legionator Posted March 28, 2010 Share Posted March 28, 2010 With Angron, you are referencing everything post heresy after he has already turned against the Emperor. To Angron and where he was raised all he had was his honor. Nothing else, he earned the trust and brotherhood of ALL the gladiators on that planet. Not an easy feat I would bet. When its the last fight for them all, the Fight to end all fights for this group. To finally put it to the highborns and let them be awash in blood for their treatment of the gladiators. Their commander is then taken from them and all are killed without honor. Yea, he should just be happy about a bigger picture when for him, everything was on that one planet that held what he held dear. Yes gave examples from post heresy, because I wanted to mention the fact that betrayal can not bring honour. Also he made some mistakes before the Heresy, he behaved like a highborn that he hated, he made his sons blood thirsty monsters. I don't know what happened in Desh'ea but I think Emperor would have helped Angron, if he had had a chance to this. Emperor gave Angron a chance to save thousands world like Desh'ea, but Angron didn't satisfy. He was just obsessed with taking revenge from his persecuters. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/194998-nature-of-the-hersey-and-rethinking-the-state-of-the-union/page/2/#findComment-2336821 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted March 28, 2010 Share Posted March 28, 2010 The Emperor had a chance to save Angrons soldiers, but it seems he chose not to. He found Angron the night before, so the battle hadn't begun yet, starting once Angron was in orbit. So yeah, the Emperor chose not to do so for some unknown reason. And the "he should have gotten over it" excuse is a little weak. Thats like me going up to someone, indirectly killing their family, and then telling them to get the hell over it, because they're in the army now, so they can save other families. Angron's soldiers were the only family he had. Their lives were everything to him. And then they get their glorious last stand against the High Riders, fighting in the knowledge that they have Angron with them. Suddenly, Angron vanishes, destroying their morale, and they're massacred, with Angron watching in orbit knowing that this high-and-mighty "Emperor" could have saved them. To use another example, since you used Sanguinius before, it's like telling the Blood Angels to get over the Black Rage that developed once Sanguinius died, because they shouldn't give a damn about their dead Primarch, because now they can fight to protect the Imperium more, and protect other Primarchs. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/194998-nature-of-the-hersey-and-rethinking-the-state-of-the-union/page/2/#findComment-2337516 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted March 29, 2010 Share Posted March 29, 2010 The Emperor had a chance to save Angrons soldiers, but it seems he chose not to. He found Angron the night before, so the battle hadn't begun yet, starting once Angron was in orbit. So yeah, the Emperor chose not to do so for some unknown reason. Perhaps it was a political decision. Integrating a world with a high technological standard into your new Imperium is going to be much more difficult if you start by slaughtering their leading caste. Oh, the forces of the Emperor could certainly have taken the world by force, but he chose not to outright use that option. So essentially Angron was denied the death at his brothers' side or the Emperor's forces' help to crush the worlds nobility in order to save thousands upon thousands of lives that would have been lost in a forced conquest of that world. The Emperor chose not to go to war with that world, and not to interfere in their affairs. He only decided to get his son out of harms way. He spared many lives by the decision to not interfere or invade, but in the end it still cost him this son. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/194998-nature-of-the-hersey-and-rethinking-the-state-of-the-union/page/2/#findComment-2337566 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashe Darke Posted March 29, 2010 Share Posted March 29, 2010 An interesting thought although it sounds completely out of character for the Emperor in my opinion. It sounds more like how he should have acted throughout the crusade rather than how he did. Since when did the difficulty of integration ever stop them from claiming a planet? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/194998-nature-of-the-hersey-and-rethinking-the-state-of-the-union/page/2/#findComment-2337567 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mob16151 Posted March 29, 2010 Share Posted March 29, 2010 An interesting thought although it sounds completely out of character for the Emperor in my opinion. It sounds more like how he should have acted throughout the crusade rather than how he did. Since when did the difficulty of integration ever stop them from claiming a planet? Well Angron was leading a revolution tha was about to be destroyed. I've always thought that the reason the Emperor didn't invade was because the ruling class of the planet fell within human norm, and accepted Imperial rule. Hence the Emperors decision to teleport him out maybe? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/194998-nature-of-the-hersey-and-rethinking-the-state-of-the-union/page/2/#findComment-2337593 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashe Darke Posted March 29, 2010 Share Posted March 29, 2010 IA gives the impression they just grabbed him and ran. I got the impression that they didn't pursuit compliance there, the fact that no one remembers the name of the world certain reinforces that idea. Legatus was saying it was either grab him and run or make a whole big deal about it and force compliance. Grab him and run seemed to be the easier option although personally I think it's out of character. When did the Imperium not conquer a world? Did the planet actually come into the Imperium then? Based on IA and what Legatus said I don't get the impression they did. Him taking Angron and then letting the people who he fought against carry on as normal seems like a major kick in the teeth from the Emperor 'I love you very much son, well kinda, but you were wrong to kill these people who've wronged you so I've let them live. It's not that I'm against all that you do, you're just wrong.' Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/194998-nature-of-the-hersey-and-rethinking-the-state-of-the-union/page/2/#findComment-2337604 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted March 29, 2010 Share Posted March 29, 2010 Actually the Imperium is described as not getting involved in local politics that much. Worlds can be feudal or democratic or under military dictatorship, they can have slavery or discrimination to certain parts of the population. The Imperium does not standardize their forms of government or their moral values according to their guidelines. With the exception of heretical issues, of course. All the Imperium requires is loyalty to the throne and tithes, be it in the form of goods or men for the Imperial Guard. The Great Crusade is usually focused on the Astartes, warriors bred for war, so naturaly one might get the impression that the Emperor came knocking down everyones door. But the Space Marine background usually also points out that the crusade's purpose was to free the human worlds from Xenos or Chaos tyranny, and not to force them into compliance. There was probably some of that too, but that was not the reason for the mighty armies of the Imperium. So it would be very much in the spirit of the Emperor's endeavor to take a world intact and without first destroying it's social or economic structures. And also without neccessarily giving them the impression that they now are under the Imperium's thumb. That there are no records of the World Eaters' home world probably has to do with their status as traitors. It may have been destroyed during the scouring, like many other traitor home worlds were. Or maybe it had been one of the first targets of the World Eaters. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/194998-nature-of-the-hersey-and-rethinking-the-state-of-the-union/page/2/#findComment-2337889 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashe Darke Posted March 29, 2010 Share Posted March 29, 2010 We know of most of the others home worlds. Cthonia, Chemos, Prospero etc. We even know of Nostramo which Night Haunter blew up and others which have been destroyed. You have systems like Isstvan which have been kept where atrocities took place. Isstvan III, the first betrayal. Isstvan V, the drop site massacre. What could the World Eaters have done to have it struck from the records and/or even detroyed? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/194998-nature-of-the-hersey-and-rethinking-the-state-of-the-union/page/2/#findComment-2337933 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted March 29, 2010 Share Posted March 29, 2010 If their homeworld was destroyed early on, possibly by the World Eaters themselves, then it is not that unlikely that the records simply have been lost. The Space Wolves were involved in the cleansing of Prospero, so for that reason alone it would be more likely that there still exist records about it. Likewise with all the other traitor worlds that were attacked by loyalists. But if there was no significant involvement of loyalist forces in the fate of the World Eaters home world, then there is not so much of a reason why the records could not have been lost to time, as the Index Astartes suggests. What we are being told about Angrons history are just fragments of legends. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/194998-nature-of-the-hersey-and-rethinking-the-state-of-the-union/page/2/#findComment-2337938 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lorgars Servent Posted March 29, 2010 Share Posted March 29, 2010 Lorgar: The equivalent of Jesus returning, and telling the Pope that he's wasted his life, and this whole "church" and everything he's done is an absolute waste of time, and that none of the Bible's true. Sigd :( Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/194998-nature-of-the-hersey-and-rethinking-the-state-of-the-union/page/2/#findComment-2338330 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted March 29, 2010 Share Posted March 29, 2010 That would probably suck for the pope (or Lorgar). But that does not change the fact that he has been wrong and has indeed wasted all that effort. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/194998-nature-of-the-hersey-and-rethinking-the-state-of-the-union/page/2/#findComment-2338345 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rain Posted March 29, 2010 Share Posted March 29, 2010 That would probably suck for the pope (or Lorgar). But that does not change the fact that he has been wrong and has indeed wasted all that effort. Except that he wasn't wrong. The Emperor was/is a god in every relevant aspect, he is immortal, superlatively powerful, and has the psychic ability to allow Imperial ships to navigate the warp even though all four warp gods would probably rather they not. The big E was just BSing in order to try to sideline the Chaos gods by denying that gods, the warp etc exist, I guess because the Chaos gods are formed of human emotions and feed on worship so a universe of atheists would lead to weaker gods. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/194998-nature-of-the-hersey-and-rethinking-the-state-of-the-union/page/2/#findComment-2338357 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted March 29, 2010 Share Posted March 29, 2010 Except that he wasn't wrong. The Emperor did not want to be worshipped and have giant temples built in his honor, so, yes, Lorgar was wrong. He was not wrong in thinking that the Emperor was super awesome, just in what he thought the Emperor expected of him and mankind. Which was very wrong. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/194998-nature-of-the-hersey-and-rethinking-the-state-of-the-union/page/2/#findComment-2338473 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted March 30, 2010 Share Posted March 30, 2010 if the emperor is truely immortal, then why the need fo the golden throne? WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/194998-nature-of-the-hersey-and-rethinking-the-state-of-the-union/page/2/#findComment-2339242 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted March 30, 2010 Share Posted March 30, 2010 I guess he is not invincible. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/194998-nature-of-the-hersey-and-rethinking-the-state-of-the-union/page/2/#findComment-2339374 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashe Darke Posted March 30, 2010 Share Posted March 30, 2010 Just because he has this intense aura and at times said glow in a radiant fashion it doesn't mean he's a god. It's a display of psychic prowess and that is what gives off that impression. He is immortal in the Highlander sense of it. He'll live forever but if you chop his head off he's a goner. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/194998-nature-of-the-hersey-and-rethinking-the-state-of-the-union/page/2/#findComment-2339423 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ignatius Posted March 30, 2010 Share Posted March 30, 2010 I think it's all to evident from the mistake the Emperor made they he is not a God! But he is a very powerful being. I Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/194998-nature-of-the-hersey-and-rethinking-the-state-of-the-union/page/2/#findComment-2339646 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Angel Posted March 30, 2010 Share Posted March 30, 2010 Stll collecting all my references but I see from the course that no one has really taken my earlier segetion seriously. Ok so the debate is not wheather he is/was worthy of worship or wheather he made mistakes along the way. To make any evaluation of his motives you must do so from the much better informed place of the player looking at the way the whole universe works. Ok first everyone assumes that the Emperor chose to unite humanity under the guys of protection because he wanted to rule. I don't think that to be the case. Many also assume that the Emperor lacked true knowledge of chaos as he did nothing to warn is troops of its dangers or the form that threat would take when it began to manifest. Again I don't think so. The following thought process assumes only 1 thing. That is that "Everything I know and can find out about this universe from ALL of the background books and ALL codexes the Emperor already knows" Based on increasing amounts of evidence I believe that the Emperor planed the HH as part of a larger and much more complex plan to get the power needed to defeat and destroy chaos for all time their by saving humanity and freeing it to return to its normal cycle of life, death, and rebirth. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/194998-nature-of-the-hersey-and-rethinking-the-state-of-the-union/page/2/#findComment-2340111 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rain Posted March 30, 2010 Share Posted March 30, 2010 Well he may not be a "god" in the way God is understood in the real world Big 3, but he is a god in the 40k world. By the way indestructibility is not a necessary condition for godhood in 40k as many of the Eldar gods were eaten by Slaanesh when it was born, and as for the Golden Throne, sure it keeps him physical body going, but it may well not be necessary for his spiritual presence in the warp to continue, which is his main arena of action lately anyway. In 40k "gods" are basically just immortal entities whose main power tends to be in the incorporeal plane (which is why C'tan can eat stars but might not fare well against an IG gunline). So yes, the Emperor is a god in pretty much every way in the 40k sense of gods no matter what he said. And by the way he is far from a reliable source as he denied the existence of any gods whatsoever and we all know how honest he was about that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/194998-nature-of-the-hersey-and-rethinking-the-state-of-the-union/page/2/#findComment-2340391 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted March 30, 2010 Share Posted March 30, 2010 i'm always thought 40k as a godless realm, but host to a multitude of dangerously powerful individuals. powerful beyond imagination maybe, but can be killed or defeated if enough force is properly applied. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/194998-nature-of-the-hersey-and-rethinking-the-state-of-the-union/page/2/#findComment-2340396 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hialmar Posted March 30, 2010 Share Posted March 30, 2010 I think a lot of this is being retconned and showing all of the Primarchs to be much more flawed and basically weak from a mental aspect, having a variety of human weaknesses being exagerrated in them. Reading any of the books so far it seems that at various times they all have chaces to stop what is going on and fail miserably, whether it si through denial, disbelief arrogance or indifference. In looking at a list an earlier poster made of the various traitors, I had different thoughts altogether regarding each of the various traitor primarchs and their legions. The interesting thing is that many of the officers or marines under them clearly do not show this same weakness which iswhat ultimately leads to the Dropsite Massacre as the traitor Primarchs relaize that some of their own followers will not betray the Emperor even if they are ordered to do so and even if the rest of their Legion does. Looking at the earlier list I would state the following: Horus: the weight of the galaxy on his shoulders, he folds like a little girl and proves he was never the right person for the job. As Horus himself stated, Sanguinious should have been made the Warmaster and that would have avoided the whole heresy, or at least lessened its scale. Night Haunter: The Night Haunter was never more than a super powered, insane version of masked vigilante on a grander scale. Nothing ever changed in him and he was not betrayed by anyone as he reaped the rewards for the actions he took. Magnus: a combination of arrogance, more arrogance and delusions of grandeur. For someone who was supposedly so smart he had appeared to have quite a case of tunnel vision and did not even think to use other methods to try and warn of the impending troubles. He really comes across as quite the fool in the books. Angron: A mad dog that should have been put down once the Emperor met him, but the Emperor fails to notice that. The whole backstory makes no sense whatsoever, when you have the Emperor on his Crusade to unite all humankind and who will not think twice about wiping out the populace of a planet or even a system, but when he could easily have backed Angron, won that war and then moved on with another planet in compliance, instead tricks one of his sons, allowing Angron's men to be butchered and does not even contemplate thatthis will turn his son against him. Hard to tell at this point if the ultimate human brain in the Emperor or the smartest Primarch in Magnus is dumber. Lorgar: Actually the preaching of the Emperor as God did not occur until after they met and Lorgar and his Legion were told then not to uphold the Emperor as god but were to dim to understand that apparently. As any misguided person(s) will often do, when told their beliefs are misguided they respond by acting irrationally and sometimes violently. Fulgrim: Narcissistic and conceited, plain and simple. This lead to the ease of his possession by the Daemon as he was a weak-willed and foolish individual. Mortarion: He joined the traitors of his free will as Horus was his only friemd among the Primarchs and his loyalty had been questioned in the past by other Primarchs. It was while caught in the warp on the way to Terra that Mortation and his Legion succumbed to Chaos powers but his treachery occured long before then. Alpharius: His betrayal was in order to actually protect mankind and the Imperium and in his minds the ends justified the means, which basically mirrors the Emperor's overall philosophy regarding the unification of mankind. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/194998-nature-of-the-hersey-and-rethinking-the-state-of-the-union/page/2/#findComment-2340425 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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