Nature of the Hersey and rethinking the state of the union

[Ashe Darke]

Regarding Alpharius. The manager of my LGS is firmly convinced that they have been tricked into fighting the Emperor and that the Cabal are not who they say they are. I like the theory although I don't know if I believe it.

 

But when it comes to how their personalities/flaws were used to turn them it makes their situation a lot more interesting. Alpharius and his legion are big on their secrets, they like to feel like they are in control and know everything. What the Cabal told them seems like a big juicy secret and them being them would be crazy to give up the opportunity to be in on it all. They sign up believing to be signing up for the most craziest secret mission ever, and thus the manipulators are manipulated. Their desire to always be in that situation of power and control saw them turn against the Emperor.

 

I don't necessarily believe it but it's very interesting none the less.

[Rain]

Yeah the part where Alpharius and co. are being shown the vision is easily the weakest part of that book for me, I still don't quite understand why someone who lives in a culture of misdirection and lies would just believe that this vision created by xenos of all things is genuine. That said, I really like the mystery of it all, ever since Legion, the true motives of the Alpha Legion have been my favorite "40k mystery" far more interesting than the two missing legions or the origin of the Blood Ravens or whatever else.

[malika666]

Well, what if the Emperor did offer Angron his help but Angron refusing it because of this whole honor thing? This meant that the Emperor had no other choice but to take Angron by force.

[Piousservant]

Yeah the part where Alpharius and co. are being shown the vision is easily the weakest part of that book for me, I still don't quite understand why someone who lives in a culture of misdirection and lies would just believe that this vision created by xenos of all things is genuine. That said, I really like the mystery of it all, ever since Legion, the true motives of the Alpha Legion have been my favorite "40k mystery" far more interesting than the two missing legions or the origin of the Blood Ravens or whatever else.

 

The end of Legion is vague enough that it does not necessarily mean that Alpharius accepted the Cabals words at face value. Or that they would follow through on them, even if they believed it was true (Annihilate humanity to save the galaxy for all the xenos? Why would Alpharius have any interest in doing that...?). So I agree with you, I find it hard to believe that any Primarch - and Alpharius in particular - would just accept the words of a group of ancient xenos as genuine which is why I like to consider there to be a few different options.

 

Maybe Alpharius actually intends a double-double cross - pretending to cross onto Horus' side but actually working from the inside to bring Horus down. If he believes the two potential futures the Cabal shows him are true, Horus victorious and the end of humanity or Horus defeated but the Emperor crippled and the slow death of the Imperium, what is to say they are the only two potential futures? How about Horus defeated and the Emperor survives uncrippled and able to lead the Imperium successfully? If the Alpha Legion cannot bring about that outcome by openly fighting Horus, why not appear to side with Horus to sabotage him from the inside? It would suit the modus operandi after all.

 

Of course that would condemn the Legion as much as the course of action the Cabal suggests, as it would have been difficult to turn around after Horus' defeat and say, "Oh yeah, we weren't really on his side...." This is my favourite option, because it still has Alpharius sacrificing himself and his Legion - but in an attempt to save the Emperor and the Imperium rather than to wipe them out on behalf of a load of aliens. It also preserves Alpharius' independence as well as his pragmatism, he takes onboard what the Cabal says but reaches his own conclusion about it rather than theirs. And the best bit, of course, is that they then have failed and the Cabals vision of the future becomes true. Ouch. Which leaves the Alpha Legions current motives still in doubt - are they now trying to fulfill the original plan of the Cabal and destroy the Imperium, or are they still trying to strengthen it in secret in a kind of Cypher-like way...?

 

Or maybe something else turns the Legion to Horus' side. Perhaps Alpharius confronts Horus with what the Cabal has said but Horus convinces Alpharius to side with him for different reasons.... I think that's a fairly unsatisifying option but it's a potential answer.

 

In some ways I'd rather not have a definitive answer, some things are better left mysterious...

[IronWinds]

I like a lot of what I'm reading here. Just wanted to clean up good ol Perturabo.

 

HH series hasn't touched it yet, but it wasn't just the painstaking garrison duty. That pissed off the IWs, but it didn't make them attack the Imperium. Horus gave Perturabo a huge 'believed to be possessed' hammer. Right after receiving this hammer Perturabo goes to the IW home planet to clean up a little rebellion. The IWs take out their frustration on the population, killing and enslaving basically everyone. After words the IWs realize the Emperor is not going to be happy with what they just did. Before they have a chance to go, "umm... sorry dad, we went to far," they get a message that they are going to Istvann because Horus is trying to take over the galaxy. I imagine it all clicks into place, they realize Horus gave him the hammer as a sign that he wanted the IWs on his side. And they are left with the options of staying loyal only to be reprimanded once more assuming the Imperium wins, OR join Horus & be let loose upon the galaxy with no one telling them to hold back.... and get a chance to blow big holes in the Fist's walls.

[Ashe Darke]

I got the impression that not all of the Iron Warriors are happy with the choices that were made. Forrix in particular. There's a bit in Storm Of Iron where he's pretty much like 'Well we're going down this path now and we can't go back so I may as well keep on going, it's not like I can do anything else'.

[Starblayde]

I got the impression that not all of the Iron Warriors are happy with the choices that were made. Forrix in particular. There's a bit in Storm Of Iron where he's pretty much like 'Well we're going down this path now and we can't go back so I may as well keep on going, it's not like I can do anything else'.

The range of opinions given by the various members of the 'Traitor' Legions really fleshes out the real characters of Astartes, for me. Even though 'World Eaters are all mental' still sums the legion up, we've seen plenty of examples of normal, intelligent marines who are just good at chopping things up and yelling.

[Scribe]

I would argue that Angron was never loyal. The short story would indicate that the Emperor simply left the War Hounds to try and bring their Primarch into the fold, and so loyalty was never ensured. Angron went along with things as he was convinced by Khârn that he had worthy warriors to lead. We do not have enough information to determine what his true motivations where, but I would imagine you could liken it to a person in the middle of grieving who buries themselves in work. Angron's work was just to wreck people/things/worlds...

 

As for why the Emperor snatched and ran, I have to imagine that it was because the worlds leadership agreed to join the Imperium. If they where a technologically advanced as we imagine, its not difficult to believe that the Emperor would take the easy path and just pick up Angron and run.

 

The world would almost certainly be destroyed after the HH began by the World Eaters, and so little record would remain.

 

I disagree that Angron can so easily be lumped into "just a bad guy" role. He was a being raised without true family, who's system of belief was disregarded as completely as Lorgars, and who only knew of one way to deal with it.

[Rain]

I got the impression that not all of the Iron Warriors are happy with the choices that were made. Forrix in particular. There's a bit in Storm Of Iron where he's pretty much like 'Well we're going down this path now and we can't go back so I may as well keep on going, it's not like I can do anything else'.

 

Well, the Iron Warriors are not very happy about much of anything, it's a genetic trait of Perturabo to be "melancholy". Also it's not like Forrix or anyone else wanted to return to the Imperium, it's more that they feel that they will never win the long war anyway, and that Horus used them as much as the Emperor did, so it's not so much turning against the Emperor that they regret, as putting trust in Horus. According to the IA, the IW pretty much hate everyone other than Perturabo at this point as they think that everyone else is out to use them and that only Perturabo cared enough about them to save them from the Emperor's bondage. As for Perturabo himself, it's not really known what he thinks, but I would guess that he is too bitter and spiteful toward the Emperor to regret turning on him.

[IronWinds]

Well IWs really don't even trust each other that much so is it surprising they don't like anyone else? An IW trusts 'his' wargear because he knows it better than anyone else, it can never use him, lie to him, and will always do what he needs it to.

 

I think similar to the night lords the IWs work best when they are simply left alone. Neither gets along with others well, and if part of some larger organization(like the Imperium) they feel they are not being used properly/feel the organization doesn't respect/understand them well enough. Left on their own they can do things the way they want which is what they excel at.

[Haniboll]

The Emperor had a chance to save Angrons soldiers, but it seems he chose not to. He found Angron the night before, so the battle hadn't begun yet, starting once Angron was in orbit. So yeah, the Emperor chose not to do so for some unknown reason.

Perhaps it was a political decision. Integrating a world with a high technological standard into your new Imperium is going to be much more difficult if you start by slaughtering their leading caste. Oh, the forces of the Emperor could certainly have taken the world by force, but he chose not to outright use that option. So essentially Angron was denied the death at his brothers' side or the Emperor's forces' help to crush the worlds nobility in order to save thousands upon thousands of lives that would have been lost in a forced conquest of that world. The Emperor chose not to go to war with that world, and not to interfere in their affairs. He only decided to get his son out of harms way. He spared many lives by the decision to not interfere or invade, but in the end it still cost him this son.

 

 

This is a good thought. This is impressive. My hat is off to your sir.

[Midwest]

Reading the books, I've always felt that one of the big tensions in the Great Crusade is that, even though the Legions are effectively from colonies, the Crusade itself is in the name of Terra, and is meant to be done by Terra/The Emperor's rules.

 

For example, in The Flight of the Eisenstein, there's a lot of dislike directed against Garro by certain Death Guard due to the fact that Garro was one of the Terran Death Guard, not a native of Barbarus like Typhon or Grulgor. Similarly, Garro himself wonders what will become of the DG once the last remaining Terrans like himself die out, and all the traditions and beliefs they've brought with them die out as well.

 

I think this is important, because amongst all the Legions, you have Legionnaires that hail from Terra and pre-date both the Crusade and the discovery of their primarchs, and those that hail from their respective homeworlds, were usually already in the service of their respective Primarch, and have no real tie to Terra itself. As such, I also think you can consider the Primarchs to be the products of their homeworlds just as much as products of the Emperor.

 

Speaking of which, the egos of the Primarchs (and also the Marines, to an extant) factors in as well. Besides the personality clashes that seemed to exist within almost every legion, you also have the rivalries outside them. Iron Warriors vs Imperial Fists for example. The constant race between legions, or between companies within legions, to see who can capture an objective first, who gets to lead the main assault landing, who gets left to mop-up, garrison, or secondary missions, etc. The dislike of "civilians", including the Council on Terra. Not only are there big egos involved, but egos that seem to be fueled by martial pride and values - note how upset so many of them become at the idea of the Emperor "abandoning" the Crusade to be a bureaucrat back on Terra. As I recall, even the Imperial Fists weren't terribly happy to be recalled as a garrison force for Terra, although they eventually managed to solace themselves with the honour of being selected as essentially the defenders of Terra and the Emperor.

 

My point being, I think the biggest factors in making the Heresy possible are the egos of the Primarchs, the inner-tensions amongst at least some legions between those of Terran and non-Terran origin, and the Emperor's apparent failure to grasp either. Virtually all of the "reasons" given for why the traitor Primarchs turned traitor seem to hinge around the Emperor dismissing a non-terran facet of them and then their egos not being able to accept that.

 

For example, the Emperor cannot abide the Colchian religiousity of Lorgar, the extreme Nostromon brutality of Kurze, or the psycho-surgery techniques of Angron. Similarly, the Fallen's resentment at being left behind, out of the martial glory of the Crusade, leads to the civil war within the Dark Angels.

 

The fault of the Emperor, repeated multiple times, seems to be that, in his expecting simple obedience, he fails to see how different the mindset of his sons are, and that they are not / cannot fully embrace the "Imperial Truth" as dictated by the Emperor, or accept a command just because it's the Emperor's, no matter how much they love him. Maybe that's the fault of the Emperor's ego, as it were.

 

Now, having said all that, I also believe Horus played a large part in determining who turned. As the Warmaster, he commanded a martial respect/devotion from the other Primarchs (at least some of them) that he was able to use turn them. Angron may have never forgiven the Emperor, but his fall probably came more from his willingness to obey the Warmaster and trust in his denunciation of the Emperor. Perhaps some of those who stayed loyal could have been turned as well, maybe it partly came down to who was available for Horus at the moment he decided to turn against the Emperor.

[calgar101]

That was a cery interesting post Midwest! Seems very likely to me. To me though some of the Primarchs were not really joining chaos(for now) just wanting to get their own back on the Emperor, Angron, Mortarion and Perturabo srping to mind. After the heresy they found solace i the bossom of the chaos gods.

[Raven Angel]

In the case of the Iron Warriors it may have been more about having another weapon at their disposal.

[valanus]

Is it just me, not to be labelled a heretic or anything, but is the Emperor a bit of a tool? Does it not strike anyone that he could have pretty easily have avoided the whole bitter civil war thing by being just a little bit less of a knob? For an all-powerful, supposedly all-knowing super-being it seems ludicrously short sighted to keep poking your children with a stick and then act all hurt and surprised when they turn round and give you a slap.....

[calgar101]

I agree with you Valanus. It all could have been avoided if he was a bit more of a father and less of an Emperor.

[Midwest]

Is it just me, not to be labelled a heretic or anything, but is the Emperor a bit of a tool? Does it not strike anyone that he could have pretty easily have avoided the whole bitter civil war thing by being just a little bit less of a knob? For an all-powerful, supposedly all-knowing super-being it seems ludicrously short sighted to keep poking your children with a stick and then act all hurt and surprised when they turn round and give you a slap.....

 

I often feel that way about the Emperor too, based on how he's being presented in the Horus Heresy. But, there are a couple things I think to keep in mind:

 

1) We haven't yet really started getting any loyalist points of view. So far, it seems the predominant views of the Emperor we've seen have been through Horus and Magnus, IMO (in terms of importance).

 

2) Perhaps more importantly, the Emperor has lived through 30+ millennia of mostly constant strife. He may have simply reached a point based on personal experience that has led to such intolerance. Fex, he's probably seen enough religious strife, crime, and persecution, in such a myriad number of forms and reasons, that he's simply reached a point where he will accept no religious mentality, belief, or institution, no matter how "good" or benevolent.

 

Similarly, he would have been alive during the disasters of the first mass-emergence of psychic abilities in mankind. This too may have set him against any tolerated use of such powers, an intolerance made worse-looking given this was one he actually relented on when some of his sons requested the formation of Librariums.

 

I don't know if GW would ever do this, but I would love to see some pre-heresy books, covering more of the Unification Wars and other parts of the Emperor's final rise to command of Terra prior to the launch of the Great Crusade. I've always had the notion - perhaps completely arbitrary on my part - that the Emperor's life span, combined with the worse elements of what Terra went through during Old Night - has probably led to a very extreme and totalitarian mindset in him.

 

It explains, for example, why his Imperium, so devoted to an idea of liberating and reuniting humanity under this great Imperial "truth", nevertheless functions as a military dictatorship that cannot accept unassimilated empires (e.g. Loken's questioning of why the people of the 'false imperium' couldn't have simply been left alone in a big universe), imposes Terran-chosen Commanders over reunified systems, regardless of whether they resisted or not, trains and uses very duplicitous methods in winning popular support (e.g. planting iterators in the crowds, rewriting native histories, spreading rumors of the deposed native rulers, etc.), operates under very draconian laws concerning a number of things which would otherwise fall under the social and cultural differences between systems, and is effectively under the command of post-human, bio-engineered warriors and their commanders.

 

The old RT and 2nd ed. fluff about Terra before the unification indicated a nightmare world where industrial pollution had poisoned the land, where the oceans had boiled away, and civilization was an anarchy of techno-barbarian hordes fighting over decreasing resources and a war-lust brought about by the general insanity of the times.

 

There's a certain logic in the Emperor responding to such experience with an extreme and intolerant view of the kind of galactic society man needed if it were to survive, the great tragedy being his failure to understand that his sons would not necessarily see or comprehend why he felt such a worldview had been justified.

[Raven Angel]

If you want a look at the Emperor from a non Astartes point of veiw read the Last Church.

[valanus]

Well i suppose that rational behaviour kind of goes out of the window anyway when you're dealing with mythology. Historically mythology is usually peppered with absent father figures, behaving like complete arsewits and their children are usually not much better, so why should the 40k mythology be any different? But i suppose the Emperor should have paid more attention to history, as he was supposedly around to witness it first hand. Maybe then he wouldn't have been quite so surprised when half his children threw their collective rattles out of the pram....

[chriscrowing]

The thing is, when they went into fleshing out the backstory with the Primarchs, they pretty much HAD to go with the tragic hero thing for a few reasons.

 

1- 'He was a bastard all along', repeated nine times is dull as hell and won't sell any books.

 

2- People who do bad things usually think they were justified at the time. While it usually dooms any serious conversation, the obvious parralel is the Nazis. Most of the leading Nazis were tricked into thinking they were on the side of truth, justice, and the German way and then the true horror of what they'd bought into became revealed. Some kept their heads down and hoped they wouldn't be next, some rebelled against the way things were going and some genuinely loved it.

 

Of course, Horus needs a better reason for turning against the Emperor than Hitler had for hating the Jews (it's not fair, they wouldn't let me into art school, and look they've got all that money...) given the wider scale and the fact that he's pretty gifted from the start (Adolf wasn't exactly his high school wrestling cahmp and a winner with the ladies, was he?) - people who have it all need a reason to hate and to turn bad - so turning the primarchs into villains takes a little more than common-or-garden jealousy and pithyness.

 

So the Primarchs who turned needed to feel justified. I do think that the books have copped out a little with their justifications.

 

Horus - Nearly dies, is fed a vision while comatose and he swallows it, hook , line and sinker. Sure, he had his issues with abandonment, the loneliness/seductiveness of power, but I'd expect the premier warrior of Mankind, the holder of most of the Emperor's best characteristics to be a wee bit stronger.

That said, he seems to have turned with the least cost to his base personality, and like when he speaks to the Fulgrim-daemon after the Dropsite massacre, he is disgusted that his little brother has been posessed by a creature of the Empyrean and has slain another brother. he swears he will cast out the daemon and 'save' Fulgrim - there seems to be hope for Horus, and I wouldn't be surprised if he ends up actually throwing the final showdown in self disgust. Can't wait for that book.

 

The glorious son falls to pride and then destroys himself in a belated attempt at redemption. Classic characterisation.

 

Fulgrim - The twisting of his sensationalist. aesthetic principles and slightly hysterical pursuit of perfection to the worship of Slaanesh has always worked just fine. I do think that the posession is a bit weak and would only work with a very weak character - I expected more of him. I do think that in his book, his whole legion falls a little bit TOO easily, with the likes of Fabius, Eidolon and Lucius understandable enough, but surely the likes of Caphen & Demeter could have done more, would have seen more.

 

Of course, they were ignorant to the lure of Chaos. That wasn't a mistake, wasn't it Big E?

 

Magnus - I LOVE what they did with Magnus, although there surely should be a massive retcon of the final stages of the Heresy and the post-Heresy history of the 1000 Sons to account for Magnus' basic loyalty to humankind.

 

Alpharius - I like the general idea in legion about how the alpha legion operate and the twin thing is cool. However, Alpharius practically snap decision to accept what 'the acuity' shows him, and to turn rebel in order to save the wider universe at mankind and the Emperiors cost is SO out of character for a Primarch it's unbelievable.

 

I've always liked the idea of the Alpha Legion being loyal in heart if not in appearance and some grandiose scheme of Alpharius to have them seem to support Horus (as it seems they would be annihilated if they did not comply) and to then turn on the traitors at a key moment would be more fitting than a primarch being convinced by some xenos that 1- his beloved brother was turning traitor and 2- it would be best to let him win, and thus seal the destruction of the human race.

 

Basically, I like the general arc but not the specifics.

 

I've not read about the other fallen Primarchs (I know they don;'t all have books, but some do), but here's what I think about the basic backstory...

 

 

Angron - Was always the rash, brutal one - but was incredibly loyal. Being censured for his style of war as well as being passed over for ther post of warmaster would injure someone like Angron deeply, and his slightly childish, slighted feeling would be easy prey for Khorne. "I'll NEVER say there has been too much blood..."

 

Lorgar - Similar to Angron, Lorgar just wanted to please and wanted to spread the worship of his father. When he was slapped down for this, without any proper reason for it, he went looking for validation, and there is one team who are always looking for worshippers and missionaries...

 

Mortatrion - Seems to have been an evil swine from the start, alien, immoral and less human than his brothers. Circumstances brought him to Nurgle, and it seems that nothing much changed for Mortatrion...

 

Perturabo - Again, the slight at being sent across the galaxy in a series of glory-less meat grinder missions, while Dorn was selected to build pretty and glorious palaces would have rankled. Aside from professional pride and a sense of being overlooked, I've never had that much traction into a deeper character for him...

 

Night Haunter - Truly believes that the ends justify the means, and trying to cast him as a hero is like casting Jeffrey Dahmer as a caring lover. He means well, and thinks that brutal justice/murder is the way, he doesn't repond well to being told off, and the rest is oh, so predictable.

 

Virtually all of the fallen primarchs fall because of pride, because they wanted to be acclaimed by their father but were in fact taken for granted or reprimanded and lastly because they wanted it all for themselves.

 

Only Magnus is truly a tragic hero, but all of the fallen share a thread - if the Emperor had explained about the nature of chaos, told them about the importance of the webway project etc, then Magnus wouldn't have broken it with his frantic communication and might have been willing to wait in his search for empyreal knoweldge, Lorgar wouldnt have gone looking for Gods to worship, Horus & Fulgrim would have been pre-warned about their more seductive falls etc. A little communication goes a LONG way...

 

It's all pretty much the standard father-son stuff...

[mob16151]

Night Haunter - Truly believes that the ends justify the means, and trying to cast him as a hero is like casting Jeffrey Dahmer as a caring lover. He means well, and thinks that brutal justice/murder is the way, he doesn't repond well to being told off, and the rest is oh, so predictable.

 

 

Imperial assisans being sent after you, because you beat up your brother is maybe just a tad more severe then being told off. But in all fairness I view the Night Haunter as more Batman then Dahmer.

[mob16151]

Edit: Double post

[Phoebus]

Suddenly, God turns around and says he isn't a God, that you're stupid for ever thinking it, he hates the temples you've built, you aren't supposed to be converting people, and your life in general up until this point has been a complete waste, so go be a good Primarch and stick to the faithless killing and ridding the galaxy of religion, would you? This, right there, has got to be one of the biggest d#&k moves the Emperor, no, anyone, could have made, ever. I mean, what happened to Angron was bad, and the Emperor was the definition of the word "tool" when he did that, but Lorgar worshipped the crap the Emperor stepped in, let alone the ground he stood on. There is no possible worse thing you could have done to him.

That's assuming that's exactly how it happened, though.

 

And, no offense to your reasoning, I seriously doubt the same Emperor we see in the short story in "Tales of Heresy", who is at worst cynical with a mere human priests to whom he has no ties, would be so cruel and demeaning to a gene-son whom he intends to see conquer the galaxy along his side. Doubtlessly the Emperor informed him of his intents to perpetuate an Imperium absent of religious dogma, but the idea that he questioned the intelligence and worth of a being he had designed to be superhuman is out of this world.

 

No, what we're talking about is hubris. Lorgar grew up with certain assumptions about the way the universe worked, and the most powerful man in the Galaxy proved them wrong. The comparison with Jesus Christ doesn't work because the New Testament was based after His life and teachings. By contrast, Lorgar didn't have a clue about what the Emperor was about. The Emperor didn't owe him anything, theologically speaking, and Lorgar merely tried to shoe-horn him into his pre-existing beliefs. This, after his subject of adoration explicitly stated for him that he was not what Lorgar wanted him to be.

 

Final verdict is obviously out until "First Heretic" comes out in a few months. But until then, Lorgar's actions are very dubious in my eyes. Even after the Emperor's revelations, he refused to give up on his dogma and continued propogating the worship of his father against his will. He had to be warned to cease doing so a second time. This isn't a case of plain-and-simple religious oppression; it wasn't a Pope telling Lorgar he couldn't be Jewish or Muslim. It was a Man--albeit the most powerful ever--telling Lorgar to not worship him. Lorgar couldn't accept this and instead turned to dubious, horrific powers that got him to buy into the idea of drowning the Galaxy in blood. The only sympathy I reserve for Lorgar is contingent on him being tragically brainwashed before he signed up for the deal.

 

In a way, you could say that Lorgar's fault wasn't a 'sin', like Wrath or Greed, but an over-arching need for higher meaning in life. He just couldn't exist without it, and he turned to the closest source he could when it was first denied to him.

I believe the Deadly Sin you're looking for is Pride. Lorgar couldn't accept that his way was wrong, and so he (most likely) turned to powers that would prove him right. Unable to shoehorn the Emperor into his own beliefs, he then turned to even more ill-fitting Powers to satisfy his needs. The common thread to all this is that Lorgar needs to feel good about who he is and how he sees the universe about him. He possesses the worst kind of stubborness, inflexibility, and hubris: everything needs to fit his vision.

 

The Emperor had a chance to save Angrons soldiers, but it seems he chose not to. He found Angron the night before, so the battle hadn't begun yet, starting once Angron was in orbit. So yeah, the Emperor chose not to do so for some unknown reason.

The way I read it, the Emperor and his Custodes were attacked on sight by Angron, resulting in the death of one of his bodyguards. The Emperor then felled Angron psychically and brought him back aboard.

 

Now, quiz time. Angron and at least some of his buddies were fitted with cybernetic mind-implants that drove them to berseker rages. When Angron charged the people who suddenly teleported in their midst right before their final stand against their technologically superior overlords, what do you think his followers did:

A. Urged caution and tried to calm Angron down

B. Stood by and waited to see what would happen

C. Leapt to aid their beloved leader against the mysterious enemy

 

Now, let's flash forward a short time later aboard the ship where the Emperor took Angron. Let's even say that Angron was awoken while there was still a last stand to be fought on the surface of that planet. What part of Angron's interview with Khârn leads you to believe that he would be even remotely coherent enough for the Emperor to discern what his horribly damaged gene-son needed from him? :D

 

Where Perturabo is concerned? I only have one word to say: Guilliman.

 

The Ultramarines did everything the Iron Warriors were asked to do in terms of garrisoning worlds, only to an even bigger extent and they thrived and prospered doing so. By the time the Great Crusade was over, they had the biggest Legion, the most prosperous system of worlds, and a record of turning conquered planets into a comparative Utopia. Their Primarch was beloved by man and Astartes alike.

 

By contrast, the Iron Warriors were dour, upset, and resentful of their tasks. The worlds they kept watch over suffered from rebellions, and their own home-world turned against them. How did things go so wrong? All you have to do is compare the Primarchs and their outlooks. From day one, Perturabo didn't trust his fellow humans, refused to get close to them, and generally kept to himself. From day one, Guilliman esconced himself in Macragge's workings, and proved himself a hero and champion of the people. One Legion prospered and was celebrated by the people it ruled over; the other suffered and was despised by the people it ruled over.

[malika666]

Philip Sibbering has his own take on the Horus Heresy which you can read here. I know it's a fan's interpretation and might be quite different from what people perceive, but what I find so interesting about it is that Horus and the Traitors aren't merely portrayed as villains or misunderstood figures who turned into villains, but rather that the Emperor could more or less be considered the villain of the story, with Horus and his side as a bit more idealistic. ;)

[chriscrowing]

I really like Phoebus take on Lorgar - he's one of those people who you see ALL THE TIME who are so damned righteous, because they construct these massive internal philosphies on why thye are rtight and you are wrong. You find them in every social situation and cultural more.

 

Back on topic.

 

Your take on the whole Heresy is based on a few crucial questions.

 

1- WAS the Emperor actually using the whole 'salvation of mankind' as a means to an end, specifically his Ascension?

 

2- Whether he was, or was not actually plotting his ascension, should be not have better informed his children/genetically modifed super warriors and leaders about a few things.

 

Imagine the Emperor giving a father-son briefing to the Primarchs.

 

i- There are these things in the Warp, they are intelligent, malevolent and seek to dominate the material universe. be careful, they operate on subversion, worship and eventually domination,. This is why I have ther Imperial Creed. Lorgar - I want you to preach the creed as a religion if you must, but the God must be the human spirit, and not any one individual for we are a race who must survive on our own merits.

 

ii- See those Eldar, they have some cool stuff - more about that in a bit. They used to rule galaxy, but the bad things in the warp kicked their ass, which is why there are about five of them left. First, be careful around the Eldar, they are older than us and have BIG guns. second, I reinforce the warning about the bad stuff in the warp.

 

iii- I'm heading back to Terra to try and create our version of the Eldar webway so we can get by without risking warp travel and thus exposure to the bad beaties in the warp - its a VERY important project and you are not to feel pissed that I'm leaving you.

 

iv- I'm leaving Horus in charge because he's oldest, biggest and baddest. Do as he says, but remember you are brothers and try to get along. You each have your own way of dfoing things, which is fine - just try to show some restraint and not brush up against each other.

 

v- It's entirely possible that I'll end up becoming a God at the end of this - none of you can do the same, because you've not got a fraction of my psychic power. However if it works, humanity rules the galaxy, I look after you all, and you all live forever as my beloved regents.

 

Any questions?

 

And with one conversation, the lies and misinformation that allowed chaos to get into the Primarchs minds is removed.

 

Honesty is the best policy after all...