Nature of the Hersey and rethinking the state of the union

[chriscrowing]

Is it just me, not to be labelled a heretic or anything, but is the Emperor a bit of a tool? Does it not strike anyone that he could have pretty easily have avoided the whole bitter civil war thing by being just a little bit less of a knob? For an all-powerful, supposedly all-knowing super-being it seems ludicrously short sighted to keep poking your children with a stick and then act all hurt and surprised when they turn round and give you a slap.....

 

I often feel that way about the Emperor too, based on how he's being presented in the Horus Heresy. But, there are a couple things I think to keep in mind:

 

1) We haven't yet really started getting any loyalist points of view. So far, it seems the predominant views of the Emperor we've seen have been through Horus and Magnus, IMO (in terms of importance).

 

2) Perhaps more importantly, the Emperor has lived through 30+ millennia of mostly constant strife. He may have simply reached a point based on personal experience that has led to such intolerance. Fex, he's probably seen enough religious strife, crime, and persecution, in such a myriad number of forms and reasons, that he's simply reached a point where he will accept no religious mentality, belief, or institution, no matter how "good" or benevolent.

 

Similarly, he would have been alive during the disasters of the first mass-emergence of psychic abilities in mankind. This too may have set him against any tolerated use of such powers, an intolerance made worse-looking given this was one he actually relented on when some of his sons requested the formation of Librariums.

 

I don't know if GW would ever do this, but I would love to see some pre-heresy books, covering more of the Unification Wars and other parts of the Emperor's final rise to command of Terra prior to the launch of the Great Crusade. I've always had the notion - perhaps completely arbitrary on my part - that the Emperor's life span, combined with the worse elements of what Terra went through during Old Night - has probably led to a very extreme and totalitarian mindset in him.

 

It explains, for example, why his Imperium, so devoted to an idea of liberating and reuniting humanity under this great Imperial "truth", nevertheless functions as a military dictatorship that cannot accept unassimilated empires (e.g. Loken's questioning of why the people of the 'false imperium' couldn't have simply been left alone in a big universe), imposes Terran-chosen Commanders over reunified systems, regardless of whether they resisted or not, trains and uses very duplicitous methods in winning popular support (e.g. planting iterators in the crowds, rewriting native histories, spreading rumors of the deposed native rulers, etc.), operates under very draconian laws concerning a number of things which would otherwise fall under the social and cultural differences between systems, and is effectively under the command of post-human, bio-engineered warriors and their commanders.

 

The old RT and 2nd ed. fluff about Terra before the unification indicated a nightmare world where industrial pollution had poisoned the land, where the oceans had boiled away, and civilization was an anarchy of techno-barbarian hordes fighting over decreasing resources and a war-lust brought about by the general insanity of the times.

 

There's a certain logic in the Emperor responding to such experience with an extreme and intolerant view of the kind of galactic society man needed if it were to survive, the great tragedy being his failure to understand that his sons would not necessarily see or comprehend why he felt such a worldview had been justified.

 

I would also like to see some pre-Heresy stuff - the Unification wars in particualr would be interesting and little snippets about it keep cropping up.

 

The Emperor certainly seems to be brooking no refusal in the Crusade, the doctrine being kill all who resist - if they don't resist then rewrite their history, make them slaves under our overseers and kill them if they complain. Sure, it might work in conquering the galaxy, but there are gonna be a LOT less people in it when your done.

 

You would think that 30'000 years would have taught him that bloody handed tyrants inevitably provoke rebellion...

[malika666]

But the Emperor wasn't planning on leaving the Primarchs as regents. He was already putting a civilian government in place. This caused some of the Primarchs and their Space Marines to think that the Emperor would eventually dispose of them when they are no longer needed.

 

As for the Imperial Creed, the Emperor did not wanted to be worshiped, he was the leader yes, but not some deity (even if you put it as "worshiping a deity like figure but as a man").

 

And if he did aspire to become a God (which is closer to Philip Sibbering's interpretation), how would the Primarchs have reacted to that. Wouldn't the whole "enlightened by science and logic" bit the Emperor and his Crusade were preaching then be nothing more than a lie?

 

You would think that 30'000 years would have taught him that bloody handed tyrants inevitably provoke rebellion...

And what if eventual rebellion was the goal? Similar to Leto II's approach in God Emperor of Dune.

[mob16151]

But the Emperor wasn't planning on leaving the Primarchs as regents. He was already putting a civilian government in place. This caused some of the Primarchs and their Space Marines to think that the Emperor would eventually dispose of them when they are no longer needed.

 

 

And if there right, does the rebellion become justified. My 2 cents is that it does.

[Phoebus]

ChrisCrowing,

 

I think it was the briefing you describe would have been perfect if the Primarchs hadn't been snatched by Chaos before coming to "adulthood".

 

But by the time they were found, it was too late for many of them. Night Haunter could no more grasp the concept of a functioning society that didn't need to be terrorized into submission than Perturabo could trust, or Mortarion... I don't know... be halfway normal, period. Magnus had gone too far in terms of spiritual, psychic, and sorcerous prowess to be reined in. Angron was lobotomized. Etc., etc.

 

The above lead me to believe that the Emperor probably did give some of said briefing to his sons. The fact that nine of them didn't rebel and hold true to his vision (that is, the nine who weren't tragically compromised or damaged by their circumstances) would indicate there was a good sense of understanding and working. Horus would have been one of them, which is why a conspiracy made up of huge chain of events was needed to get him hurt, poisoned, comatose, and exposed to rituals that opened him up to Chaos.

 

Midwest,

 

The Long Night showed exactly what the fate of Humanity was to be if it remained in fractions. A confederation of Humanity that "kind of did, but kind of didn't" act in a singular manner against Chaos would have simply fallen prey to the same threats again. Would the Emperor have to send punitive fleets each and every time some world in some part of the Galaxy decided the treatment of Psykers was cruel? Or that they shouldn't have to send their children off to join the Guard?

 

The very reason why the Emperor needs to be a Galactic Tyrant is because the very nature of the Galaxy he inhabits is warped and terrible and evil. We judge his motives and practices, but we do so from an environment where the physical and metaphysical aren't inherently arrayed against the well-being of our species. In the 40k universe, that is the case.

 

Had the Emperor survived, the Imperium would certainly not have been a utopia, but the short-sightedness, superstition and blind zealotry that make it "the bloodiest regime imaginable" would have been absent. Had the Webway of Humanity come into fruition, a great deal of danger would have been eliminated. But, ultimately, peace, freedom and true prosperity would not have been possible until the Emperor was able to subdue the great powers of Chaos or at least prevent them from grasping at Humanity.

[Philip S]

And with one conversation, the lies and misinformation that allowed chaos to get into the Primarchs minds is removed.

Unless the Primarchs had a mind of their own, and their own ambitions...

 

That little pep talk could be exactly what an already corrupt Primarch was looking for, and now everyone knows: they have a reason to talk about it, to spread misinformation, set people up etc. and never have to explain how they know all this warp stuff because daddy told them.

 

Honesty is the best policy between people who trust and love each other, however it is the worst policy between enemies or traitors. Most of warfare is deception, and traitors never come with sign posts over their head.

 

Maybe the Emperor did not give such a blunt, straightforward, honest speech as he knew some of his sons where already traitors and would fall, but he did not know which ones. A bit like the Titan Cronus knowing that one of his children will overthrow him, but not knowing which; one he devoured them all! Zeus does much the same with his first wife.

 

In this case the Emperor needs his sons for the crusade, but that does not mean he totally trust them. After all they have been tainted with chaos, but how that chaos plays out may have been hard to tell. Sanguinius was quite a mutant, he had actual wings! yet he was totally loyal and self-sacrificing. Horus looked normal, best of the best, yet was the worst. Horus' fall may look like an extreme personality shift in the books, but if Horus was good at acting he may have dropped the mask when he did not care to reveal his true self.

 

Philip

[Astalon]

But the Emperor wasn't planning on leaving the Primarchs as regents. He was already putting a civilian government in place. This caused some of the Primarchs and their Space Marines to think that the Emperor would eventually dispose of them when they are no longer needed.

 

As for the Imperial Creed, the Emperor did not wanted to be worshiped, he was the leader yes, but not some deity (even if you put it as "worshiping a deity like figure but as a man").

 

And if he did aspire to become a God (which is closer to Philip Sibbering's interpretation), how would the Primarchs have reacted to that. Wouldn't the whole "enlightened by science and logic" bit the Emperor and his Crusade were preaching then be nothing more than a lie?

 

You would think that 30'000 years would have taught him that bloody handed tyrants inevitably provoke rebellion...

And what if eventual rebellion was the goal? Similar to Leto II's approach in God Emperor of Dune.

 

Why? All science does is search for laws that are universally applicable. If by that there is a 'science of the warp' this seems no different from the troubles with reconciling macro and micro scientific theories in the current age, yet there is no disputing that quantum and einsteinein physics aren't science. Essentially science is the application of a method, as you suggest by the use of the word logic.

[Raven Angel]

I think the problem is the use of terms like god because we simply have no other words to discribe the power level of the beings we are talking about. Remeber that the Emperors ultamate goal was to protect and preseve humanity and distroy Chaos. That is the outcome he is working for. EVERYTHING ELSE is secondary. The primarchs, the war, everything. Now logic dictates that that inorder to fight godlike beings you need godlike power. Alos in light of the lastes fluff on the chose gods and deamons if you want to trully kill them you are going to have to go into the warp afterthem. You are going to have to fight them on their terf. All the evidence is there; do I need to spell it out?

[Midwest]

The Long Night showed exactly what the fate of Humanity was to be if it remained in fractions. A confederation of Humanity that "kind of did, but kind of didn't" act in a singular manner against Chaos would have simply fallen prey to the same threats again. Would the Emperor have to send punitive fleets each and every time some world in some part of the Galaxy decided the treatment of Psykers was cruel? Or that they shouldn't have to send their children off to join the Guard?

 

The very reason why the Emperor needs to be a Galactic Tyrant is because the very nature of the Galaxy he inhabits is warped and terrible and evil. We judge his motives and practices, but we do so from an environment where the physical and metaphysical aren't inherently arrayed against the well-being of our species. In the 40k universe, that is the case.

 

Had the Emperor survived, the Imperium would certainly not have been a utopia, but the short-sightedness, superstition and blind zealotry that make it "the bloodiest regime imaginable" would have been absent. Had the Webway of Humanity come into fruition, a great deal of danger would have been eliminated. But, ultimately, peace, freedom and true prosperity would not have been possible until the Emperor was able to subdue the great powers of Chaos or at least prevent them from grasping at Humanity.

I see your point, but the crux here (for me) is the Webway, not the need for strong central authority.

 

My understanding, at least of the old fluff, is that the Old Night is primarily the result of the warp storms that gathered as Slaanesh came to fruition, which troubled the warp so greatly that interstellar travel became impossible, and human civilization broke down in forced isolation. On the flip side, the birth of Slaanesh cleared the warp, thus allowing travel once again.

 

Effectively, the Great Crusade would not have been possible if Slaanesh hadn't been born (thus clearing the warp), and would not have been needed if Slaanesh hadn't been created (no creation means none of the warp storms that broke down travel, which was the main cause of the previous civilization's collapse).

 

As such, it seems to me that the key to a strong and happy Imperium is less draconianism and more the complete security of warp travel, either through a human webway and/or by guaranteeing a "calm" warp, both of which seem to be implied as the intended responsibility of Magnus prior to the Heresy screwing up the Emperor's plans, and in addition to the noted ability to use the Emperor's warp presence as a beacon for facilitating warp navigation.

[Raven Angel]

The point I have been trying to make is that The Emperor and his plans where not victims of the HH. The Emperor was the arcatech of the HH. The HH was a needed step on the path to destroying chaos. A step that helped to glavanise humanity against chose like no other experiance could.

[Eetion]

The point I have been trying to make is that The Emperor and his plans where not victims of the HH. The Emperor was the arcatech of the HH. The HH was a needed step on the path to destroying chaos. A step that helped to glavanise humanity against chose like no other experiance could.

 

 

Sorry but what?

Terra was ruined, The Emperor all be destroyed. The Imperium torn asunder at billions of deaths. The Legions, humanities proudest defenders divided.

And what happened after such destruction? the vast majority of the Imperium citizens remain ignorant to the threats arrayed against them. Those who had the strength of will to enact the plan are all but gone.

As it is Chaos has innumerable mortal followers, corrupting from within, as well as waging war from the Eye. The Imperium is locked in an unending war.

What exactly is the winning situation? The best possible result obtainable now is a status quo, with chaos receeding and hiding.

 

What exactly makes that the a Plan for destroying Chaos?

 

The Horus Heresy in one swoop destroyed everything the Emperor was working towards.

 

If trying to pass on and become the star child, why even bother trying to organise something so dramatic as the HH? It is because of the Emperor woking on the supposedly the web way that he with drew freom fighting and concentrated on research. It is purely his own focus on his own agenda that he ignored that of his sons actions.

[Raven Angel]

Take the very long very long veiw.

 

In the grand sceem of thing all that maters is 1) that chaos is destroyed and 2) humanity survies to rebuild. Everythng else is just icing on the cake.

 

To Destroy chaos somebodoy of increadible power would have to go into the warp to fight them. That being would need a terestial sorce of energy in the form of faith and human thought process to help shape the warp to build a base of operations. He would need troops too. Remeber time flows differently in the warp. 10,000 years here can be but an instant in there.

 

When the Emperor was placed on the golden thrown his soul entered the warp. They began pumping him full of life force and word of his sacrifice caused an galaxy wide upswell of faith and belife that he was a god. For the last 10,000 years trillions of human warriors and hundreds of millions of space marines have died in the Emperor's Name and their souls have passed into the warp. Where did they go? To oblivion? As deamon food? I don't think so.

 

The Emperor has become and eldritch being like the Eldar gods of old and the Dark Gods of Chaos. I think this was the plan all along. Not because he wanted more power but because its the only way to destroy chaos forever. I don't beleive that the Emperor has sat by watch from the warp and done nothing. I think he has been building up a new army in the warp. I beleive that a new Crusade is coming and soon. It will be fought not just here in the physical world but in the warp as well.

[Eetion]

SPOILERS- Legion and a Thousand Sons

 

 

And take the reasonable view.

He never claimed to be a god?

The acuity in Legion suggests that Chaos has already won, the whole galaxy will burn. Chaos wont be destroyed and Humanity wont survive- well unless chaos worshippers count. Humanity is lost.

Why even bother with the webway in a 1000 sons? or the Primarchs? Why withdraw from the fight instead of cotinuing to encapsulate more worlds, he could have set himself up as a diety a 1000 times over but chastises Lorgar for doing just that. Magnus was meant to be sat on the Throne, guiding humanity, instead of the Emperor, so that his own body was not wrecked by it according to a 1000 sons. Magnus was meant to be brought to the Emperor not eradicated.

Not a single action he has ever actually done or ordered be done supports your assumption. Your assumption is entirely based on the assumption the Emperors soul is in the warp, yet as he still projects his mind into the warp and powers the astronomican, yet it is perfectly feasable he is confined to the life giving golden throne until his actual 'death'.

What I want to know his what evidence do you have that he was anything more than a despot that assumed the loyalty of his followers to be absolute, no matter how he acted.

 

The easiest way to weaken Chaos would be to eliminate its mortal followers, and from there enact your plan, not strengthen Chaos's mortal followers a thousand fold with half the Legions and Primarchs to slay in there name. The powers of cHaos are stronger now than then they have been for millenia. Its a bizzare strategy. Win by increasing your enemies power in the short term, and hope they dont bleed your followers dry in the process.

[Raven Angel]

The easiest way to weaken Chaos would be to eliminate its mortal followers

 

Chose feeds on emotion pure and simple. It does not mater weather you follow them or not. Battle feeds the blood god, ect... By taking that path all of humanity must die to beat them.

 

strengthen Chaos's mortal followers a thousand fold with half the Legions and Primarchs to slay in there name. The powers of cHaos are stronger now than then they have been for millenia. Its a bizzare strategy. Win by increasing your enemies power in the short term, and hope they dont bleed your followers dry in the process.

 

Their power may have increased to some extent but it brought Chaos out of hiding and made them commit to a course of action. The game didn't change but now they are fighting on the Emperors chosen ground and by the rules he set.

 

He never claimed to be a god? He could have set himself up as a diety a 1000 times over but chastises Lorgar for doing just that.

 

No he didn't claim it but neither did he really try to stamp out that thought process. He waited till after Lorgar wrote the Lecto Divinatus and spread it throughout the Imperium to smack him down, but never tried to round up that book or undo what Lorgar had done. By rites Lorgar and his world should have been wiped out from the start as chaos worshiping religous finatics. Their is no way the Emperor did know the danger Lorgars homeworld and people represented; yet he let them live and spread.

 

Why even bother with the webway in a 1000 sons? or the Primarchs?

 

The webway is faster and more reliaable then warp drive. The primarchs were generals for both sides. He knew chose wouldn't take the bait without people of reall power to corrupt. Without the fallen primarchs the HH would not have been possible. By the same token the Imperium would need real leadership while he was in the warp preparing the way for his future plans. Whithout the loyal primarchs the Imperium would have fallen long ago. Beside even without their leadership whith out their geenseed their would be no Space Marirnes.

 

Your assumption is entirely based on the assumption the Emperors soul is in the warp, yet as he still projects his mind into the warp and powers the astronomican, yet it is perfectly feasable he is confined to the life giving golden throne until his actual 'death'.

 

WH40K Codex Imperialis from 2nd edt. Pages 10 and 11.

 

" Ten thousand years ago the Emperor lived and breathed as a mortal man, but his physical life has long scine ended, crushed out of him by Horus the Great Enemy, in the fial Battle for Earth. Today, as for the last one hundred centuries, the Emperor lives only by the immeasurable force of his supreme will. His broken and decayed body is preserved by the stasis fields and psi-fusion reactors of the Golden Throne. His great mind endures inside a rotting carcass, kept alive by the mysteries of ancient technolgy. His immense psychic powers reach out from the Golden Throne, enveloping and protecting mankind across the entire galaxy. His consciousness wanders through warp space, warring against the daemons that inhabit it, keeping closed the doors between this world and the next."

and further down page 11 in a grey block

"Its vast structure( the Golden Throne) sustains the Emperor's spirit which watches over and guides humanity from the warp, whilst at the same time battling against the horrific psychic entities which threaten mankind's destruction."

 

The acuity in Legion suggests that Chaos has already won, the whole galaxy will burn. Chaos wont be destroyed and Humanity wont survive- well unless chaos worshippers count. Humanity is lost.

 

First off don't ever trust someone to be absolutly truthful with you if they know you plan to kill them all anyway. Second what make you think the Emperor didsee this path along time ago, as he is far older then any of the Xenos present there, and plan around that?

 

Not a single action he has ever actually done or ordered be done supports your assumption.

 

Really. you don't find the uneven handling of the Primarchs to be in direct oposition to his apperent goals? Despote don't leave possible enemies at their back; they kill them just to be safe. They also look for easy ways to controle the population. Godhood would work way better then reason. They also never assume loyalty but always assume disloyalty.

 

What I want to know his what evidence do you have that he was anything more than a despot that assumed the loyalty of his followers to be absolute, no matter how he acted.

 

Ok lets be pragmatic here. What makes more sence. 1) That the Emperor spent 30k planing the salvation of humankind only to turn into an absolute moron in its execution, or 2) that everything on the surface was not as it seems and like most things in the 40k universe there alot more going on the you see at first glance. I'm not sayng you have to buy into the way I see this unfolding. It's a very complex line of logic. There are still some unanswered questions too but in the end I look at all the long and intracate planing that went into the Emperors actions and this is the only way to logicly reconcile all of his action. Their is no other logical alternitave that expalines everything in light of what we know. I admite the picture is distorted and incomplete, but I can only work with what I have.

[Eetion]

And why is that logical? The Emperor finds that Chaos is there and that the best way to bring it ionto the light is to virtually hand over the means to inflict death, destruction and a multitude of raw emotions to feed it? It makes no sense. Even if worship of the Chaos gods makes no difference, which im pretty sure it does, what do you think the Psychopaths, who follow them are doing? slaughter, sloth lust and manipulations of course. By simple merit of having followers increases their power.

 

Tell your sons about it, fight it fine. But hes empowering it with his actions. Raw emotion, death and destruction are all

 

And the Emperor may have been around but he was not always controlling humanity until after the unification wars, so he can guide and influence in a (relatively) small scale. Its perfectly possible the Emperor was a fallible being. he wasnt a god but a great man.

 

Why would the Emperor try and stamp out the Leticio Divinatos, hes a tyrant, on conquest, and here comes this book declaring him a god, he [probably doesnt care. The reason Lorgar got the slap down was because he wasnt conquering fast enough spending far too long 'converting people. Its also worth a note the Word Bearers didnt become corrupted until after they were given this slap on the wrist.

 

As for the decription of the Emperors spirit doing battle with daemons in the warp, it sounds very much like the 'body of light' in 'A Thousand Sons' doesnt it. Ahriman could do that in a living state. A being like the Emperor could certainly do similar. Bare in mind the Emperor cant really go off and paint a few sternguard tghese days. His 'body of light' is pretty much everything he can do aside from sit around in his rotting body... Not a nice place to be.

 

Sorry but the Emperor is older than the Eldar? Thats abit of a stretch. I thought they had a galaxy wide empire while humans were still apes. With regards to the Acuity, why dont they trust the Alpha Legion. Alpharius had already demonstrated he sees the Emperors Utopia as flawed and destined to fail with his conversations with Namijamara (excuse spelling). Of all the Legions they are the ones whou would question instructions and what they know. Alpharius wasnt an idiot, and humans were also members of the Cabal. The acuity was not some Xeno, but a monitor. Any particular reason to doubt it? (Bearing in mind we truly dont know the ALs intentions)

 

No I find his handling of the Primarchs to be exactly within his current Goals.

Horus- he needed the webway, he had trusted him for years and was his 'first' who else could do what he does?

Magnus- Im not claiming he didnt know Chaos was a threat and didnt want his sons bartering deals and believeing he clould win, that and the intention for him to sit on the Golden Throne.

Lorgar- Iv briefly covered this already.

Angron- Who only respects power and would have gladly died. Her gets onboard eventually and then hes left to it.

Curze- He beat the snot out of Dorn? Hes a tyrant, he cant have his sons drawing each others blood.

Perturabo- So he got type cast as an assault force... he was good at it. He garrisonned planets, More likely he comandeered them. No other astartes garrisoned worlds like he did.

 

He treated them as what they were. Soldiers... His finest to be precise. He expected them to get on and win him his Empire. Now admittedly he wasnt exactly tactful, but he took the loyalty of his sons and Generals to be absolute.

 

What makes you think he was planning the Salvation of mankind? a thousand human worlds were crushed because they rejected his rule. It may not have been him ballsing it up as Chaos ballsing it up for him.

He was apetty despot. A talented despot, but a despot none the less. He surely foresaw the receeding of the warpstorms isolating Terra. And his conquest was waiting and ready.

I still find, he was no omnipotent saint but a gifted man who was prone to mistakes far more logical than him planning a war in the warp. He might have had intentions to destroy the Chaos Gods, but im certain that the Heresy was certainly not his doing.

 

As a side thought. It mentions in a 1000 sons as Magnus is pulled back to his body from Terra, of Void Predators ready to assault rthe breach he had made. Could the Emperor hold them.... Could this be what prevented the Emperor from giving the Heresy the attention it deserved? The need to seal that breach.

 

 

I respect your interpretation but im afraid were just going to have to agree to disagree.

[Raven Angel]

Sorry but the Emperor is older than the Eldar?

 

I never said that. The Eldar race is over 100 million year old. The Emperor by comparison was born some time in the 3rd melinum BC.

 

I respect your interpretation but im afraid were just going to have to agree to disagree.

 

I can live with that. Its not about being right at all cost, it is about an exchange of ideas that prevoke thought.

[shatter]

Just because The Emperor went secular and insisted he not be worshiped, does not mean he didn't expect to be worshiped.

I believe he said and did all those things so that people would choose to worship him.

After ~38,000 years, he had human psychology and messianic myth-making down to an art far beyond that capable of any other human agency.

 

Remember his grand entrance on Mars? Thousands of years in the making!

 

 

"Only the truly divine would deny their own divinity."

-The Life of Brian.

[Eetion]

First off don't ever trust someone to be absolutly truthful with you if they know you plan to kill them all anyway. Second what make you think the Emperor didsee this path along time ago, as he is far older then any of the Xenos present there, and plan around that?

 

Sorry if there has been some misinterpretation here. But Eldar were present there as part of the Cabal. Im not saying you think the Emperors older than them or anything but they were present.

 

Best regards, and maybe when the new HH books come out, maybe we will find out were both right.

[Raven Angel]

Just because The Emperor went secular and insisted he not be worshiped, does not mean he didn't expect to be worshiped.

I believe he said and did all those things so that people would choose to worship him.

After ~38,000 years, he had human psychology and messianic myth-making down to an art far beyond that capable of any other human agency.

 

Remember his grand entrance on Mars? Thousands of years in the making!

 

Well I think he was counting on being warship but not for meglomaniac reasons but more simple scinetific ones. Quantum mecanis has proven that what you think and beleive has a measurable effect on reallity. Magniffy that effect hundreds of trillions of time and you get the amount of power that humantity has been poring into tuning big E into an equal or better the the Chaos gods. The Emperor just used the Imperial truth to clear out all the other competing thought process and leave a void there so that when the time came and he made his sacrifice people would natually turn to him as is are nature.

 

Sorry if there has been some misinterpretation here. But Eldar were present there as part of the Cabal. Im not saying you think the Emperors older than them or anything but they were present.

 

Ah I see. From what I have read about 40k eldar they are not immortal. They live a very long time when compared to man but it is only a few thousand years baring accident or war. That would mean the the Emperor is infact older then any of the individuals present at the meeting which is what I ment.

 

Best regards, and maybe when the new HH books come out, maybe we will find out were both right.

 

May be; who knows as the overall history is incomplete, and the ending has yet to been writen in any century

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

@raven angel: Eldrad Ulthuan is atleast 10,000 years old, as he appeared as a Farseer in Fulgrim. if he is alive this long this is a decent indication of the eldar lifespan

 

WLK

[Raven Angel]

@raven angel: Eldrad Ulthuan is atleast 10,000 years old, as he appeared as a Farseer in Fulgrim. if he is alive this long this is a decent indication of the eldar lifespan

 

I thought about that. and I have a thought. The current Eldar codex talks about how the Autarches, Exarches, and Phoenix Lords aren't one person but the conglomeration of the current wearer of the armour and all its past warers whos spirits still inhabit the armour. It follows that the armour of a farseer would be the same. Though its not stated maybe Eldrad Ulthuan is a title not a name. The codex planly states that average lifespan is around 1,000 years.