Alpha Legion Duped

[Valdenaar]

Ever since I read Legion I have always thought how foolish the Alpha Legion were to believe the Cabal. The Cabal say that if the Emperor was victorious then humanity would enter a golden age for ten thousand years before collapsing and dooming the galaxy to be ruled by Chaos and while we cannot say with certainty that that was the truth I say look at the facts. They lied to the Alpha Legion because the Imperium would have in time destroyed them and by causing a civil war they hoped to get humanity out of the way.

 

I am sorry if this ruffles a few feathers and would love to have your input on this matter.

[valanus]

I kind of know what you mean Valdenaar. As much as i enjoyed the book it did seem that Alpharius and Omegon did believe the Cabal's story a little quicker than i expected.

[Jellitin]

I'd have to agree here. Really, who would trust xenos, especially lying, sneaking xenos who claim to know the future. I think they caused this terrible 41st millenium. If it weren't for them, the Heresy could have turned out quite differently...

[valanus]

The more i think about it the more i have to agree. It seems very out of character, particularly for a legion that supposedly prides itself on their use of deception and subterfuge.

 

Cabal: 'If the emperor wins then the galaxy will die. The emperor mustn't win.'

 

Alpharius/Omegon: 'I instantly believe you.'

 

Me: 'Huh?!'

[Ashe Darke]

It was the awesome power the acuity, apparently.

 

My friends have a theory that the Cabal ARE Chaos and well, Chaos ain't that bad at manipulating people.

[A D-B]

Something worth noting is that the Alpha Legion was the only Legion 'intelligent' enough (or at least, independent enough) to realise that the Emperor's plans were, essentially, flawed. He was chasing a Utopian ideal, seeking perfection, and that's not truly attainable.

 

So it's not so much of a shock that they'd buy the Cabal's jazz, when the Alphas are already aware that the Emperor's actual plans will never really reach fruition. They're prepared for something, somehow, not to add up.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Something worth noting is that the Alpha Legion was the only Legion 'intelligent' enough (or at least, independent enough) to realise that the Emperor's plans were, essentially, flawed. He was chasing a Utopian ideal, seeking perfection, and that's not truly attainable.

 

So it's not so much of a shock that they'd buy the Cabal's jazz, when the Alphas are already aware that the Emperor's actual plans will never really reach fruition. They're prepared for something, somehow, not to add up.

 

I really have to wonder about this though...while the Alpha Legion were the most "intelligent" (used in your context) of Legions, i do wonder if any of the other...more free thinking Legions ever came across this line of thought and pursued it, in a little distance atleast.

 

I would think the Raven Guard, who thought out the box and were led by a being use to fighting against the entrenched power, along with perhaps the Thousand Sons (scholarly debates of the "what if" scenario) have come across this line of thought before, but maybe abandoned it out of their personal loyalties to the Imperium and the Emperor.

 

oh well, just idle thoughts.

 

WLK

[Lord Adras]

The more i think about it the more i have to agree. It seems very out of character, particularly for a legion that supposedly prides itself on their use of deception and subterfuge.

 

Cabal: 'If the emperor wins then the galaxy will die. The emperor mustn't win.'

 

Alpharius/Omegon: 'I instantly believe you.'

 

Me: 'Huh?!'

 

I think it's more interesting that you don't seem to think it's possible that A and O lied to the Cabal.

 

Alpharius had just seen some very interesting information, but had no way to be sure. He also knew that the Cabal was going to stick its nose into whatever he did from then on unless he 'accepted' their mission. I don't think it's unreasonable to conclude that Alpharius lied to the Cabal about believing them, and waited until he had more information before making his move.

[Lord_Caerolion]

I don't think the AL were tricked, I think the Cabal was tricked. They saw the future through the Acuity, which is using the Warp i.e. Chaos, to see the Heresy, and it's potential outcomes. However, I don't think they see exactly how those potentials are reached. In their panic, they make a knee-jerk reaction of "the side with more guys wins, right?" and send the AL over to Horus.

Ask yourselves, who ever said the AL joining Chaos was guaranteed to make them win? Perhaps Horus not having the AL would have made him more bold in his attacks, and he'd besiege and capture Terra before many other Legions know about the rebellion, and in the subsequent panic the loyalists are easy pickings for the traitors.

[Candleshoes]

I'll throw up a post I did a few years ago telling my side of the story, replying to the intelligence of the Alpha Legion. *Spoiler*.

 

“It became clear to us that the oldest and youngest sons were the most significant of all. Horus for what he will do, and you for what you will undo.”

 

 

Legion lied to you all.

 

Legion hid what it truly was, what it truly meant to tell you right in front of your hooded eyes, and yet all of you accepted what you read, accepted the lie you were meant to read I might add. The truth was just that, simple, plain, and hidden so perfectly in what you read, when you finish reading this, you’ll scratch your head and think “…. hmm… this makes sense….”.

 

Confused yet? Let me explain simply now.

 

It is often looked at that within the novel Legion, there are only 2 truth holders, that is to say, 2 bodies in which the audience can look to for unquestioned honesty without fault. 2 bodies that in a book of Lies and Deceit, are the only way for us to gauge what is real and what is not. These bodies are Dinas Chayne, and the Cabal itself. Chayne is ruled by unchangeable values where to lie is as alien as being able to sprout wings. To him, lies are a waste of time and have no value whatsoever for good or for ill. He is essentially un-corruptable. The Cabal, the actual council (not Grammaticus) is truthful in the sense that lying to humans, is a step towards giving them the benefit of equality on a galactic level… and since the Cabal despises the simplicity of man, they must be dealt with in a brutal, honest fashion. Lies are meant to deceive equals, and they certainly wouldn’t even speak to men unless it was to say something of worth. Plus, Abnett himself has on several occasions made it known to readers that these 2 character groups were the bearers of truth in his novel, it really isn’t rocket science for us to put 2 and 2 together.

 

Now, take the information overload that is Legion into your head, and see it from the eyes of those 2 sources alone.

 

You’ll find this: Dinas Chayne openly states that the Alpha Legion lie with every breath they speak to the human compliance force (and implies anyone outside the legion itself) and he is the only one to independently identify and discover Grammaticus, something nobody could do.

 

The Cabal give us the most important information. Understand that if you accept that the cabal is a truth holder, YOU MUST believe everything they say, not just the bits and pieces that make sense to you. You don’t get to pick and choose.

 

They give us the idea of an impending civil war that will allow chaos to enter real space and devour humanity. They also tell us that they have tried “recruiting” or talking to other legions over centuries (but due to flaws in the other legions, none could be successful in the undertaking) before Legion even takes place. Understand that a detail like this means that their outcome is truthful, but the players and the path are changeable. They tell you this, which means, when they offer the 2 outcomes of the Horus Heresy, and ask the Alpha Legion to choose their place, there is choice involved. The choice to make the path of the events your own, but end up in the one of the outcomes, it doesn’t have to be cut and dried.

 

The choice was:

 

1) Horus wins, in his self loathing he immolates man and extinguishes it as a vessel for chaos. The galaxy is allowed to live due to humanity’s sacrifice.

 

2) The Emperor wins, is placed within the golden throne and bring Horus down with him, stagnation occurs and the worlds are torn by war for thousands of years, allowing chaos to slowly triumph

 

The acuity followed this, and the future played out for them, they lived a lifetime in an instant.

 

You ALL think Alpharius/Omegon chose option 1, SOULY based on the principal that the Alpha Legion fought on Horus’ side. You are wrong.

 

The Primarchs never answered out loud.

 

The Primarchs chose the 2nd option. They chose against the prolonged life of the Xenos of the galaxy and chose the continual struggle against evil, even in the face of certain defeat. You Heard Me. The Alpha Legion chose the 2nd option. This is why.

 

What future does warhammer pan out to? Where did the Alpha Legion’s loyalty really lie? What makes up their very being? Control, loyalty to their own, intelligence, and above all, cunning.

 

Legion takes place 2 years before the Heresy, when The Emperor Himself still led the crusade. They are given this choice just after the triumph at Ullanor. The Alpha legion prepare to set up the biggest Con that the galaxy has ever known, the Death of Horus. It is something that only they have the ability, patience, inner loyalty, and scope to achieve.

 

“It became clear to us that the oldest and youngest sons were the most significant of all. Horus for what he will do, and you for what you will undo.”

 

When the Cabal mentions this, it isn’t to be taken lightly. It is here that the Primarchs decide to Kill Horus. Or rather, to bring about the death of Horus. They knew that fighting on the side of the emperor, among his battle lines in pitched conflict with the Traitors would yield only death. If they fought for Horus, against their own brothers, only then could they secure the loyalty of the Warmaster, to be put in a position to do him the most harm, to take advantage in the hour of need when all hope was lost, and at the most opportune time.

 

They fought for the emperor, they would provide the emperor with the chance to lay Horus low and to end the conflict once and for all, even if it meant putting on a new face and sacrificing much to yield the greatest result. Such challenges and controlled deceit could only be handled by one legion.

 

To fight for the emperor, they fought for Horus, they turned on their brothers, and they bided their time. They waited, they planned, and they preformed well.

 

If any of you cannon guys out there know, to read all the editions rule books, army books, and fluff articles… is a lot to handle… and surprisingly enough, the articles tend to differ on the specifics, especially when seen from different accounts, both loyalist and traitor. Here is where you become a historian in a way, and decide for yourself the best course of interpretation on controversial material. To say that everything that was written about the Siege of Terra is presented in the same voice, demeanour, and outlook is foolish. It is a myth, there to be interpreted by us. This is my interpretation on over 2 decades worth of material.

 

Their moment came during the worst point of the Siege of Terra. With broken walls, and enclosing Traitors, the siege was in its last hour. We know that Horus’ ship lowered its shields. This is a fact, but as to why it was lowered is up to incredible debate. Some say he did it out of an emotional purpose, as a last chance, as a mock, you may look at it in any way, for this is one of the pivotal moments in the Heresy that is openly up to us to wonder about. To me, Horus doesn’t seem to show any remorse, regret or emotion until the moment he is about to strike down the Emperor. This is the first time, and because of that, it wasn’t him who lowered his shields… it was the Alpha Legion. They are responsible for betraying Horus, lowering his shield, and giving Man, the Imperium, and the Emperor the only way to Victory. They gave up Horus.

 

The only ones who could get close enough to the Warmaster, through personal means, or by agents, by operatives working the Con since before the Heresy even started. They planned it all. They had will, the means, the motive and the TIME to do something that you may say would be impossible. They waited YEARS for that moment, and they would have done nothing to screw it up.

 

They chose Option 2, they chose the Emperor, they chose to fight for the Utopian ideal still, and did it knowing that it would one day die out, but it was them that were in control of how it was to come about, and they would go down fighting. “The Alpha Legion is perfectly placed to control and direct it.”

 

And so it was, they chose loyalty by sacrifice, and gave humanity new life, even for a short while.

 

As for their own loyalties after the death of Horus and their complete inability to come back to the Imperium as protectors (Not by want to regain their old lives, but to uphold their great deed. “The greatest trick the Devil ever played was to make man believe he didn’t exist.”) no one will ever know what their true intentions are now.

 

As for Utopian ideals, yes, the Alpha Legion never believed in the ability to achieve an end goal they knew was impossible, but that doesn’t mean they couldn’t have still fought and struggled against it (much as they do when the book tells their story). It is all they could do, and it is what they were made to do. Pech and Thias tell you this. The choice I have surmised also follows this mindset, as they make their decision to uphold the Emperor’s work by continuing the un winnable fight against chaos. Their choice alone gives them control, and they never had anything against fighting for what the Emperor stood for, even if they thought it was un-achievable. They knew the bigger picture, and their choice reflected it, even if you don’t seem to agree with their sense of victory, as it was an internal victory as well as a death sentence.

 

“It was now at the very moment of his triumph that Horus made his one and only mistake. No one can say for sure why he did it, but Horus lowered the defence shields on his barge as this last cataclysmic battle begun. It was surmised that without the shields he was able to better witness the forthcoming destruction of the Emperor and His Imperium.”

 

In the pages you will see that Horus was more than capable of killing the Emperor and Final defenders without ever stepping foot on earth. He knew his gamble had succeeded not failed, because they were about to kill the only being in the Galaxy that Man could rally behind. The seige was to be won and broken in the hours this had happened, with more time than the hounding Loyalist reinforcements could make it there to matter.

 

Why did he do it full knowing the implications? Knowing he had victory in his grasp? There in lies the very likely chance that it wasn’t his choice, and that something outside his realm of control happened to turn off his shields in Horus’ hour of victory.

 

With full knowledge of what was going to happen, the Alpha legion was more than capable of setting up a network of spies, agents, and operatives within Horus’ fleet ever before Horus had his visions. The bulk of the Alpha Legion was elsewhere, but it is more than plausible to have dozens of operatives within the crew of Horus’ own ship, let alone their own representatives from their Marines, acting as liasons between the main Traitor force. The possibilities are endless, as again, they had the TIME to plant and insert and set up whatever they needed to succeed. Logistically it is sound.

 

 

They fought and chose to fight for the emperor. One of the 2 choices made by the cabal. Every prediction that followed, the death of Horus, the end of the physical emperor, the stagnation of the imperium, and the years of warfare all have come true. It makes perfect sense,.

 

This means 2 things (to mirror yours)

1) the cabal was right about their visions, as the choice and outcome match what is given.

2) the cabal told the truth

 

As for what you put stock in, the author told you that the givers of the acuity aren’t lying, and the result of the acuity is our current 40K universe.

 

There is no third choice, it is all in front of your eyes.

[Valkyrion]

Is no one else disappointed by the lack of Steelers Wheel reference when it was screaming for it during the Imperial Guard scenes?

 

'Clowns to the left of me, Jokers to the right, here I am. Stuck in the middle with you.'

 

Anyway, what candleshoes said.

 

The OP said 'The Cabal say that if the Emperor was victorious then humanity would enter a golden age for ten thousand years ' which it most certainly did not.

 

All along the Alpha Legion maintained that it is better to maintain the flaws of man than follow a utopian ideal.

The Cabal was preaching a Utopian ideal - the death of man = the death of chaos.

The Alpha Legion wished to maintain the flaws of man = ten thousand years more mankind gets to live, despite the predations of Chaos and Xenos, thus perpetuating flawed mans existence.

 

It was never anything else. The Alpha Legion sided with Horus to save mankind.

[The Shadow Guard]

Excellent extrapolation of events candleshoes..I really like it....

 

The one argument against your take would be the GW cannon fluff from old WDs describing the Siege of Terra where Horus was warned of the imminent arrival of the Dark Angel and Spacewoves legions by an entity from the warp. He then dropped this shields to lure the emperor on to his barge where he could kill him before the reinforcements arrived. He also made sure that the psychic blackout of Terra remained so the emperor would not be aware of how close the reinforcements were. That is an alternate theory for the dropping of the shields.

 

Neverteless your take is excellent and just up the Alpha legions alley!;)

[Raven Angel]

I too agree with Candleshoes but would like to add these thoughts. If there was anyone who could get a message in and out of the Imperial palace undetected it was these men. Whos to say that they didn't check in with dad and just do what he told them. Afterall they knew the Emperor was one of the most powerful farseers of all time. If anyone here doesn't think he saw it coming you haven't been paying attention. There is also the 3rd and unspoken option. If the Cabal and the Emperor both saw this coming which I beleve to be the case then the Emperor would have had a plan to deal with it. Maybe AL saw this plan or at least where pragmatic enough to guess it was there and chose to act in the manner they beleived would give the Emperor the best chance of suceeding.

[shatter]

I'm of the opinion that the futures offered were threats. Not by The Cabal, but by Him.

 

The threats scared everyone and everything, from the major chaos entities or 'gods', to the most rational involveds.

 

He knew how the choices would be played out. He didn't need up to the minute prescient snapshots to check up on His plan. It was all well too late. He designed most of the players. He designed the Imperium. He designed the diaspora of the 'Age of Strife'.

He designed the board and the game.

 

I think A & O realized the scope of His plan and in awe committed themselves to their part. It wasn't The Cabal saving humanity, it was Him. What choice is there when He left no choice?

 

Who's to say he did not specifically make them for just that meeting? Who's to say He did not just allow but created the meeting with Grammaticus? Who's to say he did not draw him up from his airless sadness and place him amongst the stars?

 

Everyone played their part.

 

Including Him.

 

It was little wonder to me when they said, "For The Emperor!"

 

edit: typo

[Valdenaar]

Ah but the thing is peolple are saying that the sacrifice of mankind would defeat chaos or tame it or whatever but remember, the Eldar created Slaanesh. Eliminating humanity would not solve the problem. It may weaken chaos with the loss of so many playthings but Chaos will still exist and still rise. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and Candleshoes argument is very very strong but it just seems like the Cabal are implementing a cunning plan to remove an obstacle and potential threat in the Imperium.

[Alkana]

*Candleshoes' post*

This. In addition, the path Alpharius Omegon chose ended in the second outcome, but the Cabal forgot one thing. They were dumb enough to show one of the most brilliant Primarchs the future. The AL have had time to plan and execute plans, which could be to change the future they saw into the one they want.

 

The Primarchs were designed by a nearly all powerful being, I'd be dissapointed if the ones meant to be tricksters didn't have something planned for those filthy xenos.

[Clewz]

Good post Candleshoes. Definitely food for thought.

 

To add to your argument in regards AL fighting for the emperor I can remember from some of the original fluff and collected visions that Horus lowered the shields as a gamble to tempt the Emperor in as the Dark angel and Space Wolf reinforcements were on the way. Alpha Legion were given the task of ambushing the wolves and holding them at bay but failed due to some "unexpected aid". Maybe all part of the Alphas plan :)

 

The way I like to think of it the twin primarchs were presented with the two options but decided on another way

[IronWinds]

All my opinion and theory. The aliens lied, I'm not sure what the AL had in mind to save humanity or prevent 10k years of war... but it doesn't matter because the Cabal lied, it was all imaginary.

 

The cabal made it seem like one future was better for them than the other, and that humanity lost either way.

 

Well now I ask, which was the worst possible outcome for the Cabal? Future A or future B?

 

The answer: Neither... the present was the worst possible outcome. The great crusade consisted of one giant alien genocide, all the races of the Cabal were going to be wiped out, the Emperor was about to unlock the webway which would be really bad for the Eldar. Things looked pretty grim for the members of the Cabal.

 

Both possible futures the Cabal presented were a 'good' thing for the Cabal.

 

Lets look at the possible outcomes.

 

Emperor wins hands down: Great crusade suffers a minor set back, and then goes right back to work killing aliens. He gets the webway working and the Eldar's extinction is hastened by a few thousand years.

 

Horus wins hands down: Great crusade suffers a minor set back, and then goes right back to work killing aliens. Not sure on whether humanity ever gets in the webway.

 

Horus wins and then turns on humanity(Cabal's interpretation): Well lets note it is unlikely, how do you wipe out an entire race when all your soldiers are members of that race? This future was an illusion. They showed the AL this possible future because the last thing they wanted to show them was that the big E could win and continue the status quo(killing aliens).

 

Neither wins... 10k years of war: This is the outcome the Cabal wanted. Half of humanities armies are fighting amongst themselves. The great crusade ends with no clear sign of ever starting ever again. The emperor is locked out of the webway. This is a win-win-win for the Cabal. Sure the whole galaxy at war is bad... but it was ALREADY at war. From an aliens point of view humans fighting each other instead of aliens is a VERY good thing.

 

 

The best outcomes for the Cabal are their idea of what happens when Horus wins, then neither side winning, and if neither of those happen Horus winning is better for them than the Emperor winning. Is it surprising they were trying to get people to side with Horus?

 

IMO the Cabal showed the AL those possible futures because they wanted the two forces to destroy each other with no victor. They knew the AL were the one legion that wouldn't go running home screaming Horus is coming. They knew the AL would try to prevent it in their own way. That way probably meant joining Horus just to one day turn on him... which is what the Cabal wanted, it would allow Horus to get the upper hand and then be stabbed in the back. No winner... everyone loses... unless your a xenos :P .

[MCCCXXXVII]

It was the awesome power the acuity, apparently.

 

My friends have a theory that the Cabal ARE Chaos and well, Chaos ain't that bad at manipulating people.

 

I would agree because they were really ambiguous about what the Acuity really was, so I'm thinking it was powerful enough to sway a primarch, whatever it was.

[Clewz]

It was the awesome power the acuity, apparently.

 

My friends have a theory that the Cabal ARE Chaos and well, Chaos ain't that bad at manipulating people.

 

I would agree because they were really ambiguous about what the Acuity really was, so I'm thinking it was powerful enough to sway a primarch, whatever it was.

 

Tzeentch maybe

[ArgusPMC]

I thought the Acuity was a 'sight', like a vision of the future? Its how I thought it was from what was described?

 

...Wish would mean for it to be a tool of chaos would be very plausible - the demise of the Emperor exactly what it wants :)

 

AND the fact that the psyker (the one that wasn't Grammaticus) got burnt out from it, but no-one else did, points this way too?

[Rorschach]

@ Candleshoes: This is for you.

 

http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h282/contqual/6a00d8341c520753ef0120a56fa59d970c-.jpg

[snowmaninhell]

I'm not an amazing expert, but didnt the cabal say something about the dark angels' future being cloudy?

 

anyway, what I think is that everything depended on the DA. If they sided with horus, he wouldve won, and if they sided with the emperor, he wouldve won. But they didnt really side with anyone, so a mixture of both outcomes was created: what GW have greated now. a chaotic and corrupt imperium lasting for ten thousand years... ect.

 

just my views! ^_^

[BrotherAtrox]

• Reading the future is tricky business and rarely accurate. Ref: A Thousand Sons
  
• Aliens are nothing but lying scum. Specific example: Eldar. They'll do anything to further their society including lie through the teeth or create some ridiculous contraption that allegedly shows the future.
  
• The Alpha Legion are a bunch of traitors. Believing the Cabal and their sorcery tarnishes any potentially "loyalist" deeds they committed.
  
• Horus was a pompous douche. Turning into a Chaos-worshiping nancy tends to change your personality. The Horus before Davin would not be the same Horus that attacked Terra.
  

 

I don't know where people get this bit about "2 truth-holders". Even if the Cabal is a truth-holder, it doesn't follow that the Acuity is. I also don't see how you come to the conclusion about the Alpha Legion sabotaging the Warmaster's shields. Yes they have the capability, but there's no remotely hard evidence to suggest this. Did they "fight for the Imperium"? Maybe. But correlating that with "ZOMG THEY DROPPED TEH SHIELDZ" is horrible logic.

[grimz]

Isn't there a quote from A/O regarding war being the galaxy's "survival of the fittest", meaning AL decided to go with the option which would result in war for the next 10 milennia?