Alpha Legion Duped

[jeffersonian000]

Well, it has been noted in fluff in regards to the inner circle of the Inquisition siding with xenos versus Chaos since the Drako novels, where the Cabal was first mentioned (as far as I recall). “Legion” mentioned Cabal access to the Black Library via their Eldar members, and implied that no humans had gained access at that time. We know that after the Heresy, humans have access to the Black Library via Eldar allies to the Ordo Malleus (Eldar Harlequins, which are membered equally by Craftworld Eldar, Dark Eldar, and Exodites).

 

What I noticed was that the Alpha Legion used the exact same tactics and strategies as the Grey Knights, with the only difference being that pre-heresy Alpha Legion did not appear to have Librarians (possible due to their founding being near to or after the Council of Nikea) while Grey Knights are fully composed of low-level psykers that form a gestalt mind (just like the Uxor 'cept ability, to which Alpharius approved). “Legion” even pointed out that the Emperor selected genetic treats from the 52nd Chiliad Geno when creating the Primarchs/Astartes.

 

The previous facts about the Inquisition inner circle/Cabal connection combined with the canon Inquisition inner circle membership of high ranked Knights as well as the specific access to the Black Library by Cabal/Ordo Malleus members simply added to the concept that Chapter 666 is a second founding chapter of the Alpha Legion.

 

SJ

[Jarl Bloodwolf]

To me it sucks because wether they where tricked or not they where acting in what they thought where the best interests of the Imperium (or so its theorized) so technicly they should be loyal but I think with the death of Alpharius (or possibly Omegon) they fell to chaos where normally they would only have been "undercover" I say this beause the Alpha Legion is one of my favorite pre-heresy legions. And yes it is kind of ;): that they believed the Cabal so easily.

[Lucifer216]

Erm. Neither Alpharius or Omegon can be safely written off as dead. The Index: Astrates article, mentioned that the story came from an Inquisitor who was later suggested as being an Alpha Legion plant and the Ultramarines deny that the battle ever took place. It's safe to assume that the vast majority known about the Alpha Legion by both its allies and foes in the 41st millenium is disinformation and misdirection.

[Legatus]

What I noticed was that the Alpha Legion used the exact same tactics and strategies as the Grey Knights

I also noticed that the Alpha Legion uses the exact same strategies and tactics as Orks. Think about it, both use lower level units in addition to their elite units (Alpha Legion uses Cultists, Orks use Grotz). Both cannot be disrupted by killing off their commanders, as with Orks there will immediately be a new Nob that takes the place as Warboss. And just as the Alpha Legion cannot definitively be driven off, or they infiltrating agents detected, the Ork spores mean that they too cannot definitvely be driven off a world and might stay there undetected.

 

Obviously, since the Alpha Legion uses the same tactics and strategies as Orks, and since the Grey Knoghts uses the same strategies and tactics as the Alpha legion, that means that the Grey Knights also use the same strategies and tactics as Orks. I guess that makes the Orks part of the Alpha Legion.

 

z0mg, it just occured to me that the Alpha Legion also uses the exact same strategies and tactics as the Tyranids. Where the Alpha Legion operates in different cells, the Tyranid forces operate based off of different "nodes". Genestealers infiltrate worlds years in advance and turn large numbers to their cause, just like the Alpha Legion does. The Tyranids were probably originally made from Alpharius and Omegon gene-seed!!1!

[BoonKin]

The part where Orks are part of Alpha Legion sounds like the fluff in Dawn of War 1 B)

[Captain Idaho]

I'm sure I have said it before, but you can't consider the Cabal as trustworthy, nor any of the other characters in the novel Legion, just because they are sincere. There are myriad different reasons why they could be telling falsehoods without even knowing they are! The Acuity itself is not infallible, indeed what do we know of it except that which we are told by the Cabal?

 

I won't go into it all again, but the Alpha Legion went down the path to damnation like many before them, with a noble intent. They ultimately made a mistake based upon limited information. They knew nothing of what the Emperor planned in the future for humanity, nor whether what they saw was real.

 

Did they really become the matyred traitor to attempt to assist the Emperor "from the other side"? If that is the case then they really were foolish, I would (if I was a fan) prefer it that they turned traitor for other reasons than their own foolishness! Look at what they could have done if they hadn't turned against the Emperor!?

 

People argue they helped turn the tide against Horus when he least expected it, but if they had remained "loyal" this wouldn't have been needed. If they were loyal they could have forewarned Vulkan, Ferrus Manus and Corax of the ambush and saved alot of hassle. They could have turned the trap at Istvaan against the traitors, causing untold damage against the forces of the Warmasters. There could have been an extra 4 loyal Legions involved in the conflict and one less traitor.

 

Since the events in Legion happened prior to Istvaan, why didn't they rallie the other Loyalists who were away from Terra, like the Space Wolves, Dark Angels and Ultramarines? Why didn't they warn the Emperor? Why didn't they disrupt the Warmaster's plans? Why didn't they keep faith in the abilities of the Emperor and their loyal brothers?

 

Horus wouldn't have even approached Terra, let alone lay down a successful siege. They could have done so much to help rather than kill their brethren to trick someone into believing their loyalties were other than what they were...

 

The Alpha Legion were foolish and they have become now twisted in their beliefs, twisted by their own arrogance that they believe they know what is the right course of action.

 

We have no information yet of the supposed noble actions of the Alpha Legion during or after the Heresy. The lowering of the shields on Horus' Battle Barge was always attributed to a decision by him. If that changes, emphasis on the if, that is probably going to be guilt from Horus Aximan, who isn't an Alpha Legion! Either way we just don't know.

[increaso]

I'm sure I have said it before, but you can't consider the Cabal as trustworthy, and so on

 

Good post.

 

It's almost laughable how some (other) people seem to think they know exactly what the position is and that they redicule those who disagree.

 

We currently have a big gap in knowledge of the Alpha Legion between Legion and the other events that have involved them since. The same can be said for many of the other legions and big events in the HH era.

 

The AL might turn to chaos at some point, they may just be traitor marines, the twin primarchs may split off into two legions with opposing views, they may be 'loyal' still in some way.

 

All we know is that we have some exciting stuff coming up in the HH series.

[Hellios]

The thing I disagree with is that if the Alpha legion join Horus for the Emperor and they were tricked/messed-up whatever... because Humanity didn't end... so it must be the other path... I think there was a third path... and I've heard how (I don't know where from) that the Emperor had seen (psychic visions?) a narrow path in which humanity survives and sure it looks bad for humanity now but what if neither of the most likely out comes (the cabals predictions) came to pass and instead another came to pass... the one where Humanity would survive... It helps explain how the Big E who apparently sees everything coming didn't see it coming... because maybe he did... maybe he knew he would need to die...

[Gold Raven]

Ah. But there doesn't seem to be any canon referencing this. It is possible. But it is not, at all, indicated ever. Even the Legion of the Dammned wouldn't fit this, and I can't think of any other options. I am not saying it is wrong, merely that it seems unlikely given that it hasn't (to my knowledge) been indicated at all in fluff.

 

No direct indication, yes. But its interesting that the rally cry of the Alpha Legion, even after the Heresy, is still "For the Emperor". For the loyal half of the Legion, they'd mean this in a completely sincere way, though their foes would never really know (having assumed that all Alphas had turned to chaos).

 

For the half that willingly sided with Chaos, they switched sides "for the Emperor". In other words, they chose to change sides in the hopes that maybe they could help spare humanity the fate that was presented by the Cabal. They are still saying the cry in a sincere way, but with a different underlying meaning for it.

 

So, no indication in fluff, certainly. But Alpharius was always the outsider among his primarch brethren. If he could find some way to mitigate the fall of Horus for the benefit of himself, the Emperor, or humanity, he'd do it.

[Walter Payton]

Ah. But there doesn't seem to be any canon referencing this. It is possible. But it is not, at all, indicated ever. Even the Legion of the Dammned wouldn't fit this, and I can't think of any other options. I am not saying it is wrong, merely that it seems unlikely given that it hasn't (to my knowledge) been indicated at all in fluff.

 

No direct indication, yes. But its interesting that the rally cry of the Alpha Legion, even after the Heresy, is still "For the Emperor". For the loyal half of the Legion, they'd mean this in a completely sincere way, though their foes would never really know (having assumed that all Alphas had turned to chaos).

 

So the Emperor's Children could still be loyal? Intriguing :) After all, they still keep the name of their father and their ancient battlecry of 'Children of the Emperor, death to his foes!'

 

And the Alphas also shout 'Hydra Dominatus.'

 

But Alpharius was always the outsider among his primarch brethren. If he could find some way to mitigate the fall of Horus for the benefit of himself, the Emperor, or humanity, he'd do it.

 

I challenge that. We know he was devious, we know he was an outsider, and we know that he had a strong dislike of some primarchs. But he was close to Horus, and we don't really know how he would behave.

[TheEmperorsPeace]

Ultras all in this thread, getting all butthurt :unsure:

 

Legion, in my opinion, is going to be a lynch pin on the future of the HH fluff. To believe that Alpharius and Omegon even chose an option that the Cabal presented them with is foolish. Throughout the book, the Alpha Legion is always the gray area between two white and black, night and day, options. They're somewhere between the Nurthene and the Lucifer Blacks in terms of behavior. They're somewhere else entirely than Imperial dogma or Chaos heresy. The Alpha Legion are, as of now, the most important yet underrated players in fluff. The motivations from everything from the assassination of Lord Commander Namatijira to the Dropsite massacre is now cast in doubt.

[Captain Idaho]

Regardless of what option they took, even if they made their own, they turned against the Emperor when their loyalty would have changed the out come of the Heresy. As I said before, there are so many ways they could have turned the tide. They could have saved 3 Legions from being destroyed! If they were still loyal they went about things the wrong way. They are either disloyal to the Emperor or just foolish.

 

Ultras all in this thread, getting all butthurt

 

Give over! I enjoy fiction and study it. Just so happens I also collect Ultramarines.

[TheEmperorsPeace]

Regardless of what option they took, even if they made their own, they turned against the Emperor when their loyalty would have changed the out come of the Heresy. As I said before, there are so many ways they could have turned the tide. They could have saved 3 Legions from being destroyed! If they were still loyal they went about things the wrong way. They are either disloyal to the Emperor or just foolish.

 

Ultras all in this thread, getting all butthurt

 

Give over! I enjoy fiction and study it. Just so happens I also collect Ultramarines.

 

:lol:

 

Everything they did served a purpose. Would the legion renowned for its brilliance at planning waste lives unduly? Various legionnaires at points throughout Legion admit that they use lives as part of their plans but never in vain. Lives are the Emperor's currency and the Alpha Legion invests lives very wisely.

??

[Rain]

One thing you seem to be missing Idaho is that even if they did stay loyal in their own minds/motives, they would not warn the imperial legions at Istvaan. Assuming the Alpha Legion believed the acuity, they would want Horus to win not lose the Heresy so that he would then immolate himself and his followers (along with everybody else) from shame and regret.

 

They most certainly were never and will never be written as straightforwardly loyal, they fought against Imperial forces during the Heresy, this is established canon and they are a traitor legion from the Imperial perspective, but possibly not from their own. Honestly I would rather they just leave it unclear as it really gives them an air of mystery that fits their character, but knowing GW I'm sure they will spell it out in ludicrous detail, taking away all of the mystique.

[Captain Idaho]

I'm not missing anything, it just doesn't mean anything so I'm disregarding it. Who cares what they think of themselves. 2nd edition fluff told us Angron was convinced only he could save humanity. Curze though of himself as hard done by. Both of these Primarchs were traitors, causing untold death and misery regardless of their orignal intent. They should have said something to those they are apparently loyal to, as they had no reason to believe the Acuity. "A bunch of aliens said it tells the truth, oh right that must be the case then!"

 

I don't buy that they needed to be in with the traitors to win things for the influence. The pivotal events in the Heresy which turned the tide against the Emperor were those at Istvaan. The loss of 3 loyal Legions meant the Emperor was all but powerless to prevent the attack on Terra becoming a siege. It meant he had to teleport aboard the Warmaster's ship as he had no other way to win the battle.

 

The fact is, if they were loyal in their own heads, then they are arrogant are fools. They had no reason to believe what they were told, yet they took it as truth. They could have played a 3rd way, or betrayed the betrayers sooner (we don't even have any information they did betray Horus).

 

And let's not forget that they massacre Imperial civilians in present day 40K. How is that working towards their plans?

 

The Acuity, whether by design or through itself being mislead by Chaos, essentially caused the Alpha Legion and it's Primarch (as they share a soul apparently) to fall to Chaos through their own arrogance. They were told they were to play the most important parts in the shaping of the Galaxy, which panders to their ego, being as they were the least successful of the Legions (not their fault mind, as they are the youngest by 200 years!). Imagine being the runt of the litter and suddenly being told you are to be the most important!

 

And let's not forget that there is always more than 2 paths. Eldrad Ulthuan himself tried to steer the course of history down another path, and he is possibly the greatest seer in the galaxy.

 

Everything they did served a purpose. Would the legion renowned for its brilliance at planning waste lives unduly?

 

Well yes actually. Legion showed they sacrificed men to bring an enemy to battle.

[Legatus]

They most certainly were never and will never be written as straightforwardly loyal, they fought against Imperial forces during the Heresy, this is established canon and they are a traitor legion from the Imperial perspective, but possibly not from their own. Honestly I would rather they just leave it unclear as it really gives them an air of mystery that fits their character, but knowing GW I'm sure they will spell it out in ludicrous detail, taking away all of the mystique.

I have probably said this before at some point, but there is absolutely no ambiguity about the Alpha Legion's allegiance in the 41st millennium. What the Horus Heresy books just muddied up is how they got there. According to studio fluff it was because Alpharius was closer associated with Horus than with any other Primarch or the Emperor, and because he relished opportunity to fight against other Space Marine Legions (originally he had a particular beef with the Imperial Fists, but the Ondex Astartes changed that to the Ultramarines). According to Black Library they may have had some other agenda. Ultimately tehy arrived where they are now in M41, a Chaos Legion that is attacking an weakening the Imperium wherever it can.

[Hellios]

Curze though of himself as hard done by. Both of these Primarchs were traitors

 

Except if you are betrayed first... you are no longer a traitor!

[Captain Idaho]

Curze though of himself as hard done by. Both of these Primarchs were traitors

 

Except if you are betrayed first... you are no longer a traitor!

 

Neither of them were betrayed by anyone. Curze in particular got a lot of tolerance when he should have been censored long before he went and attacked Dorn.

 

They think they were hard done by and were betrayed, but not really.

[Rain]

@Idaho

 

No you are missing the point. Yes, I agree that what they did made it easier for the Emperor to be put on the throne and put the Imperium in danger of destruction, and I agree that had they acted otherwise, they could have helped crush Horus's rebellion or at the very least keep it from being as close as it was. But it is possible that they believed that that only by Horus winning could Chaos ultimately be destroyed. I'm not saying that it's a rational belief, or that the acuity was truthful or whatever, all I'm saying is that it is at least possible that that is what they believed and that all the deaths along the way would be justified by the ultimate destruction of Chaos.

 

In other words, I am not saying that the Alpha Legion are heroes, in fact I myself am sick of all of the "misunderstood hero" stuff that surrounds the Chaos legions almost as much as I am of the mustache twirling and "Hulk Smash!" idiot CSM in the the HH novels. All that said, they *might* have been loyal in their own minds, but the way they went about it actually made things worse.

 

@Legatus

As for their loyalty not being in question, there really is not much canon about them one way or the other. Their IA is suspicious at best and from what I remember of your posts, even you consider it apocryphal. The tiny blurb in the JJ dex about them hating the Imperial Fists and whatnot was very short, and even you say that it was retconned, so how reliable is it? As for the blurb in the 3.5 'dex, well yes, they like competition, but they liked competition back when they were loyal as well.

 

The strongest case for them being full blown Chaos followers is cases like Voldorius, but just because several of them are truly Chaotic does not mean that they all are, and until there is official fluff that explains their allegiance and how it evolved from the events of Legion, it will remain uncertain. By the way, although I would prefer it were never explained, if it was, I would much prefer them ending up hating the Emperor like the rest of the Chaos legions instead of some Dark Knight "let them hate me as I save them" crap, though GW might be planning just that.

[Lay]

As for their loyalty not being in question, there really is not much canon about them one way or the other. Their IA is suspicious at best and from what I remember of your posts, even you consider it apocryphal. The tiny blurb in the JJ dex about them hating the Imperial Fists and whatnot was very short, and even you say that it was retconned, so how reliable is it? As for the blurb in the 3.5 'dex, well yes, they like competition, but they liked competition back when they were loyal as well.

They may have had less fluff compared to the other Legions, but that doesn't mean it was less distinctive and consistent. The theme of their competitiveness getting the better of them and being their primary motivation is part of several major background descriptions.

 

Codex Chaos (1996)

When Horus made his pact with Chaos the martial pride of the Alpha Legion was their downfall. The Warmaster was a mighty warrior himself, he commanded armies and fleets and fought at the forefront of the Emperor's wars. By comparison he made the distant Emperor on Terra seem a weak and cowardly individual. The Warmaster was a leader worthy of their respect, the Emperor sought only to exploit Horus's conquests and crush the liberated humans of the galaxy beneath his stifling regime. So the lies were insinuated into the hearts and minds of the Alpha Legion, and if any lie is repeated often enough it begins to be accepted, and once accepted it becomes truth.

[...]

Joyously, the Alpha Legion clashed with loyalist Space Marines on Istvaan V and the campaigns thereafter. Here at last was an opponent fully as tough, as war trained, as ferocious as themselves.

 

Codex Chaos Space Marines (1999)

When Horus made his pact with Chaos, the martial pride of the Alpha Legion was their downfall and they were among the first to join him. The legion clashed with loyal Space Marines on Istvaan V and in the campaigns thereafter, any need for restraint forgotten.

 

Codex Chaos Space Marines (2002)

The Alpha Legion respected strength and despised the weak. They were drawn to the strength of Warmaster Horus and welcomed the opportunity to test themselves against their brother Space Marines.

[...]

The Legion has great pride in its prowess and welcomes opportunities to demonstrate their superior skills against loyalist Space Marine Chapters. They have been known to hold back some of their forces to test themselves more thoroughly in these circumstances.

 

 

Imo, the new direction in Abnett's Legion is based upon two previously established pieces of background: The first is the Index Astartes article, the first publication in which historic accounts of their past were described as dubious. Legion most likely expanded upon this by doing the same with their loyalties.

The second is that the Alpha Legion has frequently been described as following their own, independent agenda after the Heresy. Originally, this was tied to the background regarding their competitiveness; they were inventing new military objectives in order to find new challenges in battle. This might have been retconned.

 

Codex Chaos (1996)

The Alpha Legion became entirely separated from the forces of Horus but continued to wage war on all that they came across. By the end of the Heresy they were inventing objectives and missions of their own to fulfil their war-lust without reference to their allies.

 

Index Astartes

However, it is not thought that Alpharius was blindly following Horus, for he seemed to have his own agenda. He relished every battle against loyalist Space Marines as the ultimate test of military skill. Again and again the Alpha Legion proved they were the match of the other legions. They started going out of their way to find Space Marine opponents, and inflicted stinging defeats on the loyalist White Scars at Tallarn, a Space Wolves company at Yarant and other legions at dozens of smaller outposts. Well before the Warmaster's forces reached Terra, the Alpha Legion had become separated, but continued to wage war on all that they came across. Even after the defeat of Horus on Terra, the Alpha Legion continued on unchecked, apparently inventing objectives with absolutely no connection to the rebellion as a whole.

 

----

 

As far as I'm concerned, the reason why all the new stuff in Legion worked out, is because most people didn't really care for AL fluff before the novel came out - and not because there was a lack of it.

It's a byproduct of the fact that the Horus Heresy novel are essentially telling a story that most fans are already familiar with and provide little room for real surprises. So, in order to shake things up, the Legion with the least exposure had to undergo some changes.

[Captain Idaho]

@ Rain: Oops you are right, I mis-understood your angle and was arguing over nothing! I beg your pardon.

 

I agree I am getting tired of the tragic villain thing, it's as over done a theme as the flawed hero thing.