Alpha Legion Duped

[Solid Zaku]

Or we could go with an option 3: The Cabal was wrong/lying...

 

Perhaps the Alpha Legion DID choose Candle's Option 1 with the altruistic hope of killing the Emperor for the sake of the galaxy, but were mislead by incorrect information.

[hmk17]

Chaos was very big on manipulating the appearance of the future. Horus was shown the potential future, but blinded as to WHY that particular future might exist. Odds are excellent the Cabal got twisted up too.

 

I have to agree with candle for the most part.

[Dark Mechanicum]

Just finished reading Legion again and I shall say, the timing is what is good. Horus has been Warmaster for what only 4 months when the Cabal show their vision. The Alpha Legion decides to go with the Cabal, whether lying or not, the AL chose to go with them. They take out the expedition fleet that has the most inept Lord Commander and more gaudy than an Emperor's Children. Their last words are "For the Emperor."

 

Now the AL being duped, I dont think so, they already knew and have said that the Great Crusade was a utopian exercise. They are also the only legion to use non-astartes in battlefield roles and as information gatherers. Due to this the Ultramarines dont like them because they are gits. Most of the other legions dont like them because they do think outside of the box all the time. They dont use conventional warfare, they use cold war era tactics to win. So, I say that the AL did their own thing and only joined with Horus to get what they saw as humanities saving grace to keep them alive for a long time.

[Walter Payton]

Ultramarines dont like them because they are gits

 

Grow up.

 

The Ultramarines didn't like them because they viewed their tactics as needlessly wasteful and idiotically complex, when a simpler approach would be just as effective. Roboute Guilliman had a very different outlook on warfare to Alpharius- Guilliman viewed it almost as a necessary evil (he would always pick the path that guaranteed the greatest number of friendly/non-compliance human survivors). Alpharius viewed it as a kind of sport, a test of strength and wit. This is evidenced when he could have simply attacked an unprepared enemy, but waited until they had built extensive defences because an early attack would be "too easy".

 

Of course, this isn't to say that Alpharius didn't take warfare seriously-he certainly did. But he took it seriously in the way that an athlete takes his sport seriously, Guilliman took it as a grave and violent, yet also noble, endeavour, a product of his harsh upgringing on Macragge. Guilliman's pragmatic approach was at odds with Alpharius's 'happy-go-lucky' approach, hece animosity, but saying that the Ultras didn't like them because they were 'gits' is moronic in every regard.

[Lord Adras]

Ultramarines dont like them because they are gits

 

Grow up.

 

The Ultramarines didn't like them because they viewed their tactics as needlessly wasteful and idiotically complex, when a simpler approach would be just as effective. Roboute Guilliman had a very different outlook on warfare to Alpharius- Guilliman viewed it almost as a necessary evil (he would always pick the path that guaranteed the greatest number of friendly/non-compliance human survivors). Alpharius viewed it as a kind of sport, a test of strength and wit. This is evidenced when he could have simply attacked an unprepared enemy, but waited until they had built extensive defences because an early attack would be "too easy".

 

Of course, this isn't to say that Alpharius didn't take warfare seriously-he certainly did. But he took it seriously in the way that an athlete takes his sport seriously, Guilliman took it as a grave and violent, yet also noble, endeavour, a product of his harsh upgringing on Macragge. Guilliman's pragmatic approach was at odds with Alpharius's 'happy-go-lucky' approach, hece animosity, but saying that the Ultras didn't like them because they were 'gits' is moronic in every regard.

 

Actually, Alpharius let the enemy dig in because he wanted to prove to Guilliman that his tactics were effective. His disagreements as far as tactics were primarily because Guilliman favored a "one size fits all" approach to tactics, while Alpharius favored adaptability and fluidity.

[Legatus]

Actually, Alpharius let the enemy dig in because he wanted to prove to Guilliman that his tactics were effective.

That is true, allthough "effective" in this situation meant defeating a very numerous foe with a much smaller force. Unfortunately it did not mean achieving the most efficient result in terms of time and resources spent on the campaign.

 

 

His disagreements as far as tactics were primarily because Guilliman favored a "one size fits all" approach to tactics, while Alpharius favored adaptability and fluidity.

Guilliman's doctrine was that a force should be able to deal with any kind of situation and condition, while Alpharius's doctrine was to concentrate and tailor his plans meticulously to the specific situation and condition at hand. The "flexibility" of the Alpha Legion was that they pre-planned for different eventualities and had back up plans for their back up plans. The flexibility of the Ultramarines was that they were trained to deal with any kind of conceivable situation, or at leat with the majority of those that could be expected.

If the Ultramarines are faced with developements they did not initially expect, the Codex doctrines should still allow them to cope with the situation. If the Alpha Legion was faced with developements they did not initially expect, well tough, they probably did not prepare for that eventuality. At least they will not be in danger of their command structure being shattered by one unfortunate blow. B)

[Lord Adras]

Actually, Alpharius let the enemy dig in because he wanted to prove to Guilliman that his tactics were effective.

That is true, allthough "effective" in this situation meant defeating a very numerous foe with a much smaller force. Unfortunately it did not mean achieving the most efficient result in terms of time and resources spent on the campaign.

 

 

His disagreements as far as tactics were primarily because Guilliman favored a "one size fits all" approach to tactics, while Alpharius favored adaptability and fluidity.

Guilliman's doctrine was that a force should be able to deal with any kind of situation and condition, while Alpharius's doctrine was to concentrate and tailor his plans meticulously to the specific situation and condition at hand. The "flexibility" of the Alpha Legion was that they pre-planned for different eventualities and had back up plans for their back up plans. The flexibility of the Ultramarines was that they were trained to deal with any kind of conceivable situation, or at leat with the majority of those that could be expected.

If the Ultramarines are faced with developements they did not initially expect, the Codex doctrines should still allow them to cope with the situation. If the Alpha Legion was faced with developements they did not initially expect, well tough, they probably did not prepare for that eventuality. At least they will not be in danger of their command structure being shattered by one unfortunate blow. :)

 

That's not quite it either. The AL does tailor their forces for engagements, sure, but so did the Ultramarines, to an extent. I think the big disagreement was over how battles should be fought. Alpharius used secrecy and cunning, while Guilliman preferred more honorable combat. Basically, Guilliman trained warriors, while Alpharius trained operatives.

[Legatus]

The conduct was certainly one of Guillimans main complaints, but I don't think it was the stealth aspect so much, since stealth is used to a degree in Codex forces, as more the subversive elements. The mobilisation of opposing civillian forces or planting/turning of enemy personell. Infiltrating Scout forces behind enemy lines and performing ambushes or sabotage missions is nothing too out of the ordinary. I assume it was the organised and actuvely initiated collaboration with defectors and traitors that Guilliman objected to. Perhaps he saw that as unworthy of honest warriors. Or he felt that it may lead to problems in the long run, when even after a planets population has been introduced into the Imperium there will now allways be suspicion towards the own soldiers, since they remember how the battle for their world was fought and how many of the soldiers were persuaded to work with the opposition. If you meant that with "secrecy and cunning" then I agree with you. But if people speak of stealth and cunning in relation to the Alpha Legion I am usually assuming they are refering to infiltratig Chaos Marine units first and foremost.

[Lord Adras]

The conduct was certainly one of Guillimans main complaints, but I don't think it was the stealth aspect so much, since stealth is used to a degree in Codex forces, as more the subversive elements. The mobilisation of opposing civillian forces or planting/turning of enemy personell. Infiltrating Scout forces behind enemy lines and performing ambushes or sabotage missions is nothing too out of the ordinary. I assume it was the organised and actuvely initiated collaboration with defectors and traitors that Guilliman objected to. Perhaps he saw that as unworthy of honest warriors. Or he felt that it may lead to problems in the long run, when even after a planets population has been introduced into the Imperium there will now allways be suspicion towards the own soldiers, since they remember how the battle for their world was fought and how many of the soldiers were persuaded to work with the opposition. If you meant that with "secrecy and cunning" then I agree with you. But if people speak of stealth and cunning in relation to the Alpha Legion I am usually assuming they are refering to infiltratig Chaos Marine units first and foremost.

 

Yeah, I meant more secrecy, especially the whole "keeping secrets from even our allies" bit. I understand why Alpharius preferred to do so (It was fewer variables to take into account during planning), but I can't imagine it went over well with someone like Guilliman, who liked cooperation between human and astartes fighters.

[Dark Mechanicum]

Ultramarines dont like them because they are gits

 

Grow up.

 

The Ultramarines didn't like them because they viewed their tactics as needlessly wasteful and idiotically complex, when a simpler approach would be just as effective. Roboute Guilliman had a very different outlook on warfare to Alpharius- Guilliman viewed it almost as a necessary evil (he would always pick the path that guaranteed the greatest number of friendly/non-compliance human survivors). Alpharius viewed it as a kind of sport, a test of strength and wit. This is evidenced when he could have simply attacked an unprepared enemy, but waited until they had built extensive defences because an early attack would be "too easy".

 

Of course, this isn't to say that Alpharius didn't take warfare seriously-he certainly did. But he took it seriously in the way that an athlete takes his sport seriously, Guilliman took it as a grave and violent, yet also noble, endeavour, a product of his harsh upgringing on Macragge. Guilliman's pragmatic approach was at odds with Alpharius's 'happy-go-lucky' approach, hece animosity, but saying that the Ultras didn't like them because they were 'gits' is moronic in every regard.

 

Ok, to defend my statement. Guilliman doesn't like anything that isn't Codex related due to his upbringing. He is a git, his gitness is in not thinking of other ways or allowing for commanders to think outside the box when it will fit. A good example, and I cant believe I'm using it: Ventris in thinking outside the box and disagreeing with the codex is charged with heresy and is going to be executed because he didn't follow the rules when it wasn't working and would have gotten them killed.

 

Alpharius thought outside the box and wanted to prove to the other legions that his tactics were just as vaulted as theirs. Guilliman didn't take secrecy well and thought that everything should be out in the open as true warriors. Sometimes that doesn't work. Best example of it all working: After the Heresy when Guilliman goes and attacks the Alpha Legion on a planet, Alpharius gets killed, Ultramarines are then systematically taken apart and ambushed time after time after time until the rest of the legion has to come and help out the Primarch. He was broken and filled with doubt in the fact that the Alpha Legion didn't just break down and stop fighting at the death of their leader, they kept fighting. If that had happened to the Ultramarines it would have broken them since they put so much into their commanders.

 

Anyway, if you haven't noticed I dont play the smurf's so insulting me and calling me moronic for expressing my opinion is childish in its own.

[Legatus]

Guilliman doesn't like anything that isn't Codex related due to his upbringing.

We know that he included tactics and strategies of other Primarchs, so it is rather that what Guilliman "does not like" had not been included in the Codex by him instead of him not liking what isn't in it. Alpharius' tactics were not worthy in his eyes.

 

 

He is a git, his gitness is in not thinking of other ways or allowing for commanders to think outside the box when it will fit.

The reason for that is that the Codex Astartes is supposed to be a box that includes every conceivable viable method, so there would never be a reason to go outside of the box. If there is a solution, it's in this box. If it is not in the box, it is of no use, or even detrimental. That was the intent for the Codex at least. It is not "one way we are keeping on using", it is "the optimal way for any given situation".

 

 

Ventris in thinking outside the box and disagreeing with the codex is charged with heresy and is going to be executed because he didn't follow the rules when it wasn't working and would have gotten them killed.

IIRC he was charged with leaving his company behind without a proper reason. It is also bad writing on the part of any author if they try to contrive situations where "following the Codex will get them killed". I don't think that was the case in the Ventris books either.

 

 

After the Heresy when Guilliman goes and attacks the Alpha Legion on a planet, Alpharius gets killed, Ultramarines are then systematically taken apart and ambushed time after time after time until the rest of the legion has to come and help out the Primarch.

That may be because apparently the Ultramarines had never before faced opposition in the form of guerilla tactics (no Eldar or Hrud or anything like that) so it was inconceivable for Guilliman that anyone could fight in such a way and he did not incorporate counter strategies in the Codex. Does that sound a bit daft? Yes it does. :huh:

 

 

He was broken and filled with doubt in the fact that the Alpha Legion didn't just break down and stop fighting at the death of their leader, they kept fighting. If that had happened to the Ultramarines it would have broken them since they put so much into their commanders.

Apparently neither could Guilliman conceive that a forces' commander might be incapacitated. Or maybe he did. At least the Index Astartes Imperial Fists states: "All ranks are able to make tactical decisions and are encouraged to act on initiative." Just don't tell Graham McNeill, it will shake his conviction in the Codex being a crutch.

 

How the Ultramarines were able to be one of the most successful Chapter for 10,000 years inspite of clinging so strictly to the Codex should be amazing for the people that uphold the belief that the Codex is weighing a Chapter down. To me it isn't, and it is precisely because of the Codex that they have been continuously successful.

[Eetion]

Maybe they are the most successful because the codex was FORCED upon the legions? Everybody uses it these days with a few notable exceptions.

Dorn disputed the introduction of the codex. What happened, his Ships were fired upon for failure to comply. This doesn't sound like the man who masterminded the greatest siege defence in the history of humanity was consulted at all. Other primarchs opposed it too. Men who had their own specialities and operations. What gives gullieman the right to push the codex through?

What's to say that other methods wouldn't be even more effective?

 

Alpharius obviosly took issue with it as ineffective and predictable. Which then his Legionairres proved after his death. (supposedly, I'm running an assumtion that the event actually took place and is not misinformation by the AL).

The codex is a hand book and to expect every conceivable response to be in there is misguided. It seems like he was out thought, and out maneuvered by the AL. And the one success he did have came about because he broke with his own codex and assaulted without support into Alpharius's HQ.

 

Alpharius was everybit the skilled commander, and just because his way was different Guilleman sought to insult and undermine him stating 'you will never attain my accolades' or something similar.

 

Alpharius fought with his head and the war was won on the mind long before boots were on the ground. Whereas it seems that once things spiralled out of Guillemans expectation of what is in the codex then he seemed to be quickly on the back foot.

[Legatus]

Maybe they are the most successful because the codex was FORCED upon the legions? Everybody uses it these days with a few notable exceptions.

Dorn disputed the introduction of the codex. What happened, his Ships were fired upon for failure to comply.

What Dorn protested against was the dividsion of his Legion into indipendent Chapters.

 

 

Alpharius was everybit the skilled commander, and just because his way was different Guilleman sought to insult and undermine him stating 'you will never attain my accolades' or something similar.

Several Primarchs could boast with exceptional victories. Top among them were Horus, Jonson and Russ. Alpharius, in his own way, was gifted in overcoming opposition with uncinventional means. However, what the Ultramarines can claim for themselves is that they were able to conquer worlds faster than any other Legion (even before they grew to be the largest), suffered the fewest casualties and ending up with loyal, productive and well defended worlds. Guilliman was suggesting that Alpharius should adopt these doctrines that made his Legion so successful, but Alpharius wanted nothing of it. After a heated debate about tactics (and probably also conduct, perhaps even mainly so), when Alpharius was not willing to listen to any of it, Guilliman pointed out how successful his Legion had been throughout the Crusade, and that Alpharius would not be able to achieve similar things with the tactics he was using.

 

 

Alpharius obviosly took issue with it as ineffective and predictable. Which then his Legionairres proved after his death.

There is little to be said about the campaign description given in the Index Astartes Alpha Legion. The Ultramarines were utterly unable to cope with sabotage, espionage, jammed communications, disguised enemies, ambushes, traps, really anything it seems. Makes one wonder how they would have been able to supposedly be so successful during the Crusade and the past 10,000 years. They had probably only fought Orks running straight at them throughout the whole Crusade.

[Dark Mechanicum]

Yea, its one of those things but the story of the heresy trial is from the short story Consequence which is in Legends of the Space Marines, its pretty much that inbetween two of the books. But yea completely understandable in what the Codex is, but there is still that whole thing that Guilliman puts forth his codex and there is still resistance. Not much due to the end of the Horus Heresy, but just enough that some legions dont adapt to it.

 

I will say that the Codex has helped them but the Ultramarines do view any breaking from the codex as heresy as big as betraying the emperor for those moments when it doesn't seem to work.

[Eetion]

Alpharius obviosly took issue with it as ineffective and predictable. Which then his Legionairres proved after his death.

There is little to be said about the campaign description given in the Index Astartes Alpha Legion. The Ultramarines were utterly unable to cope with sabotage, espionage, jammed communications, disguised enemies, ambushes, traps, really anything it seems. Makes one wonder how they would have been able to supposedly be so successful during the Crusade and the past 10,000 years. They had probably only fought Orks running straight at them throughout the whole Crusade.

 

 

Im sorry. Are you trying to make a point here? Are you being sarcastic or trying to say that a Marine Chapter/Legion must get a good kicking before they learn anything? Counter Terrorism and insurgents should be something the marines are versed in. Even if they didnt encounter Eldar or Hrud and lets face it that is some stretch of the imagination. Did they also not encounter human worlds that resisted compliance? They MUST have dealt with insurgents.

 

I would also debate the Ultras being one of the fastest legions to conquer worlds, what they were was the most through. That by merit of its requirements cannot be fast, i would debate they are one of the slowest Chapters, but likely due to the size of the Legion could spread themselves out and have a larger distribution of forces so a larger Planetary conquest number than their speed would show.

 

Now lets look at the codex itself, The Tyranids decimated the UM 1st company, and within the Chapter there is huge resistance to the forming of Tyranic war veterans, a schism and heated dsebate about breaking from the norm of the codex even when facing off against possibly the most significant threat the Galaxy has faced for 10000 years, if not ever. Its hardly inspiring stuff

 

With regards to Dorn, he not only protested against being broken in chapters but meddling into how his Legion could operate. It wasnt just the Marines but tghe entirety of the Imperium that changed. And Dorn was excluded from this, finding out only on his return to Terra.

What Gullieman was best at was organisation. And to that end he no doubt saved the Imperium directly after the HH. But that does not mean he is a master of battles but understands the logistics of warfare. That does not nessacerily mean he is the most qualified to decide upon the most efficient methods of sige or fast attackl. Had the codex been written by all Primarchs and Legions it would be much stronger.

 

As it was the UM were all but broken on Eskrador against the primarchless AL. Alpharius by design or accident proved the superiority of his tactical dogma in that instance. Guilleman was cut off from orbit and confined to ground, seperated from his own Legion, lacked supply lines, and outmaneuvered by the AL, whichever way you cut it, he was beaten.

 

What it demonstrates is that the codex CAN be broken, it is not infallible, and there are times when it will not help, and any inherrent flaws in the codex to those who know about it, (Chaos Marines) will know that in a strictly codex formation the loyalists will act in one of so many ways. Useful knowledge in any war. Can you say the same of the Alpha Legion?

#

I firmly believe Alpharius would have studied the codex and committed it to memory, and would have no problem using some of its tactical dogma, but he would not react ONLY in that way.

 

 

Anyways as much as im enjoying this... back to the acuity....

How do you know who the AL fought for? Its perfectly feasable they fought for both? hoping to prolong any kind of judgement on humanity.

[Legatus]

Anyways as much as im enjoying this... back to the acuity....

But... can't I...? I will try to keep it brief then.

 

 

Im sorry. Are you trying to make a point here? Are you being sarcastic or trying to say that a Marine Chapter/Legion must get a good kicking before they learn anything? Counter Terrorism and insurgents should be something the marines are versed in. Even if they didnt encounter Eldar or Hrud and lets face it that is some stretch of the imagination. Did they also not encounter human worlds that resisted compliance? They MUST have dealt with insurgents.

Yes, I was trying to make a point/be sarcastic. The Ultramarines have no response at all in that account of the Battle for Eskrador other than to "fight it out" while the Alpha Legion is runing circles around them. They should be able to realize what the conditions are (the enemy prepared the terrain, the enemy has spies everywhere, while their own ommunication is being disrupted), and they should have an appropriate response to it. At least they should know what is going on. Instead, as the account describes it, they don't know what is happening to them. "our techmarine thinks our communications are being jammed", or "the Alpha Legion seemed to have prior knowledge of their every move". They don't have a clue. It is like "Derrr, why aren't they lining up so we can exchange volleys?"

 

 

I would also debate the Ultras being one of the fastest legions to conquer worlds

I would then usually quote the (albeit 2nd Ed.) fluff stating that they were exactly that, but I wanted to keep it brief (I am not good at that, though). Right from the start, before becoming the largest Legion. That was not due to them beating the opposition quicker, but thanks to the way Guilliman organised the worlds defenses and the supply lines. I ssume thanks to that his Legion did not have to wait for supplies or double back to defend a world they had already conquered.

 

 

With regards to Dorn, he not only protested against being broken in chapters but meddling into how his Legion could operate. It wasnt just the Marines but tghe entirety of the Imperium that changed. And Dorn was excluded from this, finding out only on his return to Terra.

What Gullieman was best at was organisation. And to that end he no doubt saved the Imperium directly after the HH. But that does not mean he is a master of battles but understands the logistics of warfare. That does not nessacerily mean he is the most qualified to decide upon the most efficient methods of sige or fast attackl. Had the codex been written by all Primarchs and Legions it would be much stronger.

Though the Index Astartes Alpha Legion might imply different, Guilliman was actually capable to recognise the talents of his brother Primarchs. That he included the articles about the siege tactics of Perturabo is mentioned in various sources. Also, Dorn never complained that he was being told how his forces should operate. The Index Astartes articles (mostly BT and CF) specifically describe how he did not want to divide his Legion. It is never stated that the others were forced to organise their Chapters according to Codex guide lines, and it is never said that anyone complained about something like having to organise according to Codex guidelines.

 

 

I may have been overstating things when I had declared earlier that the Codex Astartes includes tactics on everything. There are new discoveries over the millenia, and new information has been added constantly to the Codex. The Tyranids had not been known untill very recently, for example, so material on how best to combat them would be added to the Codex material. However, where such new threats are discovered, it is not really possible to go against the Codex Astartes, since the Codex Astartes is not really saying anything about these instances. In such instances it is up to the experience and the judgement of the commander. Information such as "target teh synapse creatures to disrupt their brood coordination" would be added as a Codex doctrine. But that is different from changing the Codex organisation fundamentals. To specialise half of a Chapter's first company against one particular enemy goes against the Codex, to stay with the Tyranid example.

 

How was that for keeping it short? I suck at that.

[Eetion]

This totally merits its own thread....

So I will keep short.

 

Im prepared, to adfmit Eskrador could be a hoax, exagerrated or nevber even happen, and I know you think the Ultras should know what to do too, but its hard to respond to an enemy that wont do as youexpect them to. Confusion is perfectly feasable, even with Astartes, just when you think you have the situation under control, something completely unexpected happens.

[The emperors chosen]

I may have been overstating things when I had declared earlier that the Codex Astartes includes tactics on everything. There are new discoveries over the millenia, and new information has been added constantly to the Codex. The Tyranids had not been known untill very recently, for example, so material on how best to combat them would be added to the Codex material. However, where such new threats are discovered, it is not really possible to go against the Codex Astartes, since the Codex Astartes is not really saying anything about these instances. In such instances it is up to the experience and the judgement of the commander. Information such as "target teh synapse creatures to disrupt their brood coordination" would be added as a Codex doctrine. But that is different from changing the Codex organisation fundamentals. To specialise half of a Chapter's first company against one particular enemy goes against the Codex, to stay with the Tyranid example.

 

How was that for keeping it short? I suck at that.

Do you have any proof of this? As far as I know, we the players have not actually seen any major part of the codex astartes. Furthermore the codex doesn't give exact examples of what to do. it's not "attack the brood lord by using lascannon to disrupt blah blah blah..." it's more of a "use (a.) to achieve (b.)", where A is what you have on hand, and B is your goal. Part of the problem is the Ventris series, which gives the idea that you must follow everything the codex says to the letter or be kicked out of the chapter.

[Legatus]

Do you have any proof of this?

Which one in particular? That new information is added to the Codex Astartes (C:SM, p. 9), that the Codex includes specific examples as well as broader guidelines (C:SM, p. 9) or that specialising in fighting one particular enemy is against the Codex doctrine (C:SM, p. 87)?

[Adarul Greystalker]

The Alpha Legion are not loyalists. “For the Emperor” is a lie.

 

That’s how I see it anyway. In order to come to a conclusion about the questions of the twentieth legion‘s loyalty and other matters, first, we must be able to see through all the secrets and lies contained in Dan Abnett’s superb spy novel. So, here are the things we know about the Alpha Legion:

They routinely decieve everyone they are in contact with, including their allies

Their plans are incredibly complex, including contingencies upon contingencies

They seek control in any and every situation that they may get themselves into

They think for themselves to a high degree relative to the other legions

They are essentially pragmatists

 

In all of the events of the novel, much is claimed about the Alpha Legion, but little more than these facts is revealed in a clear and obvious way. However, we can learn more through the application of logic. There is an inconsistency that shows up several times in the book. The legionnaires claim that the Emperor’s utopian ideal is unattainable and is inimical to species survival. At the same time, they claim to be utterly loyal to the Emperor and committed to his vision. This is logically inconsistent, while the Alpha Legion normally presents meticulously constructed and factually consistent deceptions. These deceptions are only exposed as inconsistent when they are contrasted with the truth, and I would suggest that that is exactly what’s happening here. Either the Alpha Legion are lying about the perceived flaw in the Emperor’s ideal and are truly loyal, or they are telling the truth about the flaw and are lying about their loyalty to the Emperor. Which is true? The answer seems to be that they think for themselves.

 

The simplest explanation is that the Alpha Legion is lying about their loyalty to the Emperor. Such a lie has obvious advantages, and we have no reason to believe that they are being truthful about their loyalty. If this is so, then the Alpha Legion were in fact the original traitor legion and were simply posing as loyal astartes until they saw their opportunity in Horus’s impending betrayal. On the other hand, if they were truly loyalists, there would be no reason for them to lie about their apparent belief that the Emperor’s vision is impossible and that the pursuit of such a goal could lead to the destruction of humanity. Such a lie could only serve to brand them as traitors, which would have no practical purpose before any inkling of the impending heresy was known to the Alpha Legion.

 

Therefore, I think that we can assume that the Alpha Legion’s philosophical claims are truthful and that they were opposed to the Emperor’s vision even before Horus ascended to the rank of Warmaster. This has far-reaching implications, including some beyond the immediately obvious. If the legionnaires’ philosophical statements are truthful, then we know that they opposed the Emperor because of their belief in the importance of species survival. In fact, it would seem that this is the ultimate goal of the Alpha Legion - to ensure the survival of the human species. We can also divine something about their preferred methods of achieving that goal beyond the obvious by examining some of their other statements, principally Alpharius’s quote from the very beginning of the book about war being the galaxy’s hygiene. The objective of the Alpha Legion seems to be to ensure the survival of the human race by continually stoking and maintaining the embers of conflict, thereby tempering and strengthening the resolve of humanity. This was opposed to the Emperor’s ideal of a unified, peaceful Imperium, which the Alpha Legion saw as deluded and impossible, and so they rebelled.

 

As far as whether the Cabal lied to the Alpha Legion, we know that any deception on their part would be only partial, and if they did lie, it may not truly matter. The acuity showed them two possible futures, and it seems that at least one of those was true, since it was the future that came to pass. It seems to me that the other possible future was too terrible to be a lie. If the Cabal had wanted to decieve the Alpha Legion into doing their will, they surely would not have given them such a difficult choice. They likely would’ve had them believe that Horus’s victory would lead to a positive outcome for humanity. If there was a possibility that Horus could’ve been defeated decisively, then the Cabal had every reason to conceal it from the legionnaires, but it may have been irrelevant. The Alpha Legion would not have wanted the Emperor to succeed and continue with his grand plan. On the other hand, we know that they would never have gone along with the Cabal’s desired outcome and ensured Horus’s decisive victory. Such a course of events would’ve been contrary to their goal of species survival. Instead, they saw what they believed to be the only path toward the ultimate survival of the human race and ensured that it would be the true path of history. I believe that the Horus Heresy turned out exactly the way the Alpha Legion had wanted it to. Speculation as to what their goals were after that, how they may have succeeded or been thwarted, and how these things relate to the legion as it exists in M40 are subjects for another thread and another time.

 

For now, what do you guys think of my conclusions?

[Candleshoes]

@Adarul

 

In the philosophy debate in Legion, where you gave your options, can't the Alpha Legion a) Openly disagree with the possibility of success within the Emperor's utopian plan and know it will fail. b ) Openly make the conscious choice to continue loyaly crushing the enemies of humanity and the Emperor in the endless wars of expansion.

 

This would mean they told the truth in both accounts, for why would either of these points need to be lied about.

 

The Imperial Fist Captain Sigismund in Horus Rising shares this same viewpoint of not only disagreement of peaceful ideals (against Loken no less) and states quite firmly "Peace is a vain wish. Our crusade may one day adopt another name, but it will never truly end. In the far future, there is only war... how innocent you are." These views are not that of an unloyal astartes, but rather very intelligent ones. There is much to be said about the few Legions who took pride in philosophically asking "why" about larger issues, and still fought for the Emperor, whether or not they agreed with the answer.

[Adarul Greystalker]

I suppose I can't exactly prove that the Alpha Legion are lying about their loyalty, so you may be right, but I strongly believe that evidence for it is present in the text.

 

Firstly, if you believe that the Alpha Legion are loyal, their actions as of the end of the novel and for the rest of the Heresy don't make much sense. Alpharius's claims that he does what he does for the Emperor ring hollowly as his legion decimates the loyal Imperial fleet. If they betrayed Horus and sabotaged his shields, why did they leave it at that? Why not ambush Horus and help the Emperor defeat him or otherwise mount aggressive attacks against the traitors? As it is, the evidence that the Alpha Legion helped the loyalists is circumstantial, and I believe that if they were truly loyal, they didn't do a very good job of sabotaging the traitors relative to what was within their means.

 

You make a good point about other astartes claiming that the Emperor's vision is not as perfect as it seems. I think there's an important difference, though. The Alpha Legion did not simply state that they thought that the Great Crusade could not give way to peace, they actually claimed that the Emperor's actions were inimical to species survival. That suggests that the Emperor's efforts are dangerous to humanity and that he should be stopped.

 

Furthermore, and this is really my main point, the reason that I pointed out that contradiction between apparent claims of loyalty and disloyalty is the fact that the Alpha Legion normally presents a factually consistent deception. If you assume that the Alpha Legion are telling the truth until they are shown to be lying, then it's reasonable to assume that they are loyal, but have doubts. On the other hand, if you assume as I do that the Alpha Legion are lying whenever possible, then concluding that they are loyalists is illogical.

 

It seems highly unlikely to me that the Alpha Legion were actually loyal, however, that's my interpretation of the text and what I believe was the author's intent, and you're certainly welcome to a different opinion. I think that Legion: Secrets and Lies was definitely written to have people walk away with widely different conclusions. It's only fitting that a novel about the Alpha Legion should deceive its readers as much as or more than it actually reveals anything about them, and that may be its true genius.

[Candleshoes]

The space marine at the end of Legion who says "For the Emperor" is not Alpharius. Took me a few read throughs to realize that.

 

As far as brass tax goes for the loyalty issue: Pre-heresy, the 18 years of the XX Legion's existance, and the two years before Horus Rising, the Alpha Legion were loyal to the Emperor and the Crusade to reclaim humanity's birthright, whether or not they philosophically agreed with the outcome. When reality itself is challenged by the Cabal, and the choices are given, they either stay loyal, turn against mankind, or persue an unspoken agenda. Whichever the "real" choice is, the wars, cleansing and "blooding" if you will that is the war against the Emperor up untill his mortal wound could very well be a variable that changes everything. Even then, anything can happen along the way to change what they once thought or felt.

 

Not enough is know during this time to truly pin down "loyalty" to the Imperium, to the Ruinous Powers, or to themselves. I also think it's brilliant that the seeming step in one of these directions can be taken and embraced by almost anyone, yet, there really is nothing to support one over another.

[kalicurealm]

The more i think about it the more i have to agree. It seems very out of character, particularly for a legion that supposedly prides itself on their use of deception and subterfuge.

 

Cabal: 'If the emperor wins then the galaxy will die. The emperor mustn't win.'

 

Alpharius/Omegon: 'I instantly believe you.'

 

Me: 'Huh?!'

 

I think it's more interesting that you don't seem to think it's possible that A and O lied to the Cabal.

 

Alpharius had just seen some very interesting information, but had no way to be sure. He also knew that the Cabal was going to stick its nose into whatever he did from then on unless he 'accepted' their mission. I don't think it's unreasonable to conclude that Alpharius lied to the Cabal about believing them, and waited until he had more information before making his move.

 

Also: I always thought that the AL's battle cry "For The Emperor" was actually sincere and not mockery.

 

I must say, although I haven't yet finished reading the thread, that I am inclined to side with Lord Adras' theory.

I think one of the darker powers :cuss ed with the Cabal and, perhaps, that is a part of the reason that one of my most beloved characters in the series, John Grammaticus, commited suicide.

 

Also: I always thought that the AL's battle cry "For The Emperor" was actually sincere and not mockery.

[Adarul Greystalker]

The space marine at the end of Legion who says "For the Emperor" is not Alpharius. Took me a few read throughs to realize that.

 

You're right. I just read that passage again. That almost certainly wasn't Alpharius or Omegon, was it? Given the Alpha Legion's practice of using body doubles even when there's no obvious threat, it makes perfect sense.

 

Do you think perhaps that was emphasized in order to add another layer of doubt to Alpharius's apparent death at the hands of Guilliman?