Alpha Legion Duped

[Candleshoes]

Do you think perhaps that was emphasized in order to add another layer of doubt to Alpharius's apparent death at the hands of Guilliman?

 

Interesting question, as the astartes that speaks that line at the end of the book (his wording against Chayne before he kills him, something that was used earlier in the book as an indicator under different circumstances) in my mind, is the very person Guilliman kills. As far as I can tell, neither of the Primarchs were on board Namarjita's ship when he was killed.

[Brother Aristeo]

The Alpha Legion could not possibly have been duped for 2 reasons:

 

1) Alpharius proved to be a living lie detector while conducting an interrogation, so if the Cabal was lying he would have known.

 

2) The Cabal are aliens who think humans are backward, warlike and disgusting and would therefore not stoop to a human level by lying to a human.

 

 

The only people who have been duped are those who believe that the Alpha Legion ever genuinely fought "For the Emperor."

 

Alpharius Omegon saved the human race from extinction. They already knew that the Emperor's "utopian ideal" was counter-productive to species survival. On the other end of the spectrum, Horus defeating the Emperor would allow Chaos to burn itself out and take humanity with it. Then the Acuity showed the answer: The 41st Millennium. Oh sure, they acted all horrified and butt-hurt after seeing the Acuity, but Alpharius Omegon's natural reaction to everything was to lie. "War is simply the galaxy's hygiene" - and a galaxy engulfed in constant warfare would keep humanity's genepool clean and strong in order to ensure the survival of our species.

 

We all know the story of the Heresy and how it played out, and it was all according to plan.

[Legatus]

If the Heresy went according to the Alpha Legion's plan, then they made some very risky predictions. After the heresy the Imperium was in ruins, and it would have been taken apart bit by bit by xenos and chaos invaders if it hadn't been for one other blue armoured Legion (or so the background explains). Incidentally the Alpha Legion had one alleged bloody encounter with that Legion, so it seems unreasonable to assume that the Alpha Legion had planned that they would be at full strength and there to protect the Imperium in the times after the heresy. Unless you are proposing that the Alpha Legion was so convinced in the Ultramarines' prowess and that they would be there to protect the Imperium, and that they only fought them on Eskrador as one final confirmation of the Ultramarines' strength, then the whole "AL saving humanity" conspiracy falls apart.

[shatter]

AL closed the gray area in The Emperor's plan. Which was most definitely their design specifications. They were to be the glue binding the yin yang of this universe and the warp, of order versus chaos, Imperium versus traitor and all into a stasis where man could continue to evolve.

 

This gray area scared the bejebus outa the filthy aliens and they used the trick of prescience (acuity) to find a path through it, which led to AL... the tool He made. Silly Aliens, tricks are for kids.

[Brother Aristeo]

If the Heresy went according to the Alpha Legion's plan, then they made some very risky predictions. After the heresy the Imperium was in ruins, and it would have been taken apart bit by bit by xenos and chaos invaders if it hadn't been for one other blue armoured Legion (or so the background explains). Incidentally the Alpha Legion had one alleged bloody encounter with that Legion, so it seems unreasonable to assume that the Alpha Legion had planned that they would be at full strength and there to protect the Imperium in the times after the heresy. Unless you are proposing that the Alpha Legion was so convinced in the Ultramarines' prowess and that they would be there to protect the Imperium, and that they only fought them on Eskrador as one final confirmation of the Ultramarines' strength, then the whole "AL saving humanity" conspiracy falls apart.

 

First off, the predictions had already been made by the Cabal. It's like I've been telling people forever, the Acuity was 100% correct. Alpharius Omegon took Soneka and Shere in with them and were somehow able to verify that the Acuity was true, so they lied to the Cabal and said they'd go along with their plan (in case they needed the Cabal's help again in the future) since the fate of humanity was in the balance. Aliens that come along and show you the key to humanity's survival/extinction should not be thrown away so casually, that's just not the Alpha way.

 

Secondly (and I'm sure you won't believe this at all), yes, the Alpha Legion planned for the Ultramarines Legion to be away from the action so as to be at full strength once Horus was defeated (Eskrador was just the icing on the cake).

 

It is mentioned that Alpharius was thought to have masterminded the Dropsite Massacre and was working closely with the Warmaster. Now that we know that Alpharius had full knowledge of the Heresy before it even started, the Alpha Legion was in the perfect position to pull all the strings. It wasn't about controlling every aspect of the way the Heresy played out, but letting the Heresy play out while being in position to pull strings when necessary. If Alpharius was at the Warmaster's side, Omegon was out in the field with the Alpha Legion making sure things were going smoothly.

 

Alpharius convinced Horus to send Guilliman and the Ultramarines far away to keep them out of the action. Guilliman would think he was being given a lot of responsibility whice made him feel respected and kept him content. This nullified any threat from the Ultramarines during the Heresy while keeping them at full strength. This put Guilliman in the perfect position to write the Codex Astartes and reorganize the legions into chapters. His legion alone has been the basis for more chapters than any other legion, through sheer numbers at the 2nd founding and through geneseed in every founding since. Utopia now had its perfect warriors, utterly faithful and totally predictable. They could fight against Chaos for untold millennia, just like the Acuity showed.

[Candleshoes]

@ Aristeo

 

I wouldn't put so much stock in what Alpharius may have done to sideline Guilliman before the heresy via Horus, someone else made those plans.

 

That said, The Urizen, Kor, Erebus and the Word Bearers have been documented since False Gods to have already had their plans in motion (for decades) in dealing with the plans to nullify the numerical advantages of the Ultramarines and big papa G. Estimates of just how large his legion was at the time of the heresy are quite broad (speculation is all people can use obviously), but people claim the big G could have commanded as high as one half of the total of all standing astartes. Simply put, his legion alone could have been roughly the size of all 17 others put together. Whatever his size, EVERYONE knew he was the key, remove him, gain enough time to stike at Terra before reprisals.

[Legatus]

Alpharius convinced Horus to send Guilliman and the Ultramarines far away to keep them out of the action. Guilliman would think he was being given a lot of responsibility whice made him feel respected and kept him content. This nullified any threat from the Ultramarines during the Heresy while keeping them at full strength.

I don't know about the Word Bearers long time plan mentioned above, but the question is, was the raid on Ultramar something Horus (or Lorgar) had planned by himself without the knowledge of the Alpha Legion? It might have worked, and there would not have been any Ultramarines left after the Heresy. And again, why the battle on Eskrador? (Unless that account had been fabricated, not to diminish the reputation of the Ultramarines, but to convince the other traitor Legions that the Alpha Legion is firmly on their side...)

Also, indeed, that Alpharius intended for the Ultramarines to be the saviors of the Imperium, and for Guilliman to reorganise the Imperial military is slightly noncredible. I do think such an (intended) key element would have been mentioned by Alpharius at some point. He does not seem to care much for Guilliman, though.

[Brother Aristeo]

Legatus, you just don't understand the Alpha Legion at all. I told you that you wouldn't believe me. :D

[Legatus]

So the Alpha Legion had planned that the Ultramarines would not get wiped out by the Word Bearers attack? That a small team of Marines led by an Ultramarine would sabotage and stop the "Furious Abyss" so it could not seal their fate? Yeah, that is some damn good planning.

[igotsmeakabob!!]

So the Alpha Legion had planned that the Ultramarines would not get wiped out by the Word Bearers attack? That a small team of Marines led by an Ultramarine would sabotage and stop the "Furious Abyss" so it could not seal their fate? Yeah, that is some damn good planning.

Good planning?

Alpha Legion.

[increaso]

My first time post here so be gentle!

 

I take it other readers felt that there were similarities between the 'future' shown to Horus in False Gods (chapter 14 - approx first 10 pages) and the visions shown by the Acuity in Legion (chapter 10).

 

If we accept that the Alpha Legion and Cabal are honest in their intent that would leave the acuity as the tainter.

 

Horus was shown 41st millenium as we know it and told that this would be the future if he did not rebel. If this is disputed i will elaborate. He was specifically shown the statues of the 'loyal' primarchs.

 

The acuity also revealed the 40k we know and presented that as the situation if the Alpha Legion did not rebel. For that outcome to occur the Acuity either distorted the path to each future or the Alpha Legion chose to stay 'loyal' (to mankind perhaps rather than the Emperor).

 

I would prefer it if there was a recurring theme of lies associate with warp related future reading.

[Aqatone]

The marine posing As Alpharius at the end of the book was Mathias Herzog or Ingo Pech -- I forget. The phrase "That's all you get" was used earlier in the book by one of the same two marines posing as Omegon. You can identify who's who throughout the book by the descriptions of their eyes.

[Lord Adras]

My first time post here so be gentle!

 

I take it other readers felt that there were similarities between the 'future' shown to Horus in False Gods (chapter 14 - approx first 10 pages) and the visions shown by the Acuity in Legion (chapter 10).

 

If we accept that the Alpha Legion and Cabal are honest in their intent that would leave the acuity as the tainter.

 

Horus was shown 41st millenium as we know it and told that this would be the future if he did not rebel. If this is disputed i will elaborate. He was specifically shown the statues of the 'loyal' primarchs.

 

The acuity also revealed the 40k we know and presented that as the situation if the Alpha Legion did not rebel. For that outcome to occur the Acuity either distorted the path to each future or the Alpha Legion chose to stay 'loyal' (to mankind perhaps rather than the Emperor).

 

I would prefer it if there was a recurring theme of lies associate with warp related future reading.

 

The big difference is that what was showed to Horus was only one of the futures, and was, for all intents and purposes, correct. The difference between what A&O were shown and what Horus was shown is the other option.

[Brother Aristeo]

The big difference is that what was showed to Horus was only one of the futures, and was, for all intents and purposes, correct. The difference between what A&O were shown and what Horus was shown is the other option.

 

They were all shown the future that actually comes to pass. None of them were shown alternate futures or other options.

 

Horus was shown a future that Erebus tricked him into thinking he could change, but instead caused it happen.

 

Alpharius and Omegon were shown the Horus Heresy and the 41st millennium. The Cabal wanted the Alpha Legion to use the Heresy to change the 41st millennium into a galaxy free of Chaos (and humans, but that was just a side effect).

[lee265]

Alpha Legion was shown something by an xeno device that they were told never lied. but as the device uses the warp which can be influenced by chaos really how much can it be trusted. So unless another book comes out explaining things they most likely became pawns to chaos because of there pride (they thought they were the best pride is such a classic way to fall to an enemy).

[increaso]

The big difference is that what was showed to Horus was only one of the futures, and was, for all intents and purposes, correct. The difference between what A&O were shown and what Horus was shown is the other option.

 

Alpha Legion was shown something by an xeno device that they were told never lied. but as the device uses the warp which can be influenced by chaos really how much can it be trusted. So unless another book comes out explaining things they most likely became pawns to chaos because of there pride (they thought they were the best pride is such a classic way to fall to an enemy).

 

This is my point i guess.

 

I see two options really.

 

1) The Alpha Legion were tricked by the Acuity into assisting Horus and causing the 41st millenium occur. They were tricked into thinking that by helping Horus that he would win and then destroy humanity. This didn't happen so the acuity lied. Some of the plot developments in A Thousand Sons might support this and a fall due to pride is becoming such a common theme in the series.

 

or

 

2) They chose some third option.

 

Either way it leaves the question open as to whether they some how became corrupted since the HH or whether they remain loyal to mankind, but perhaps not the Imperium or something else altogether.

[Legatus]

Either way it leaves the question open as to whether they some how became corrupted since the HH or whether they remain loyal to mankind, but perhaps not the Imperium or something else altogether.

I don't think that is an open question. There are sources on the Alpha Legion other than the Horus heresy series, you know? ^_^

[increaso]

I don't think that is an open question. There are sources on the Alpha Legion other than the Horus heresy series, you know? :)

 

I think the codex information in relation to the Alpha Legion does not clearly set out their allegiance and the fact that they did not retreat into the EoT but rather set off east for their own 'mysterious' aims is intended to leave it open ended.

 

For completeness i know there are other novels that portray them as chaos aligned along with the DoW game (if that's even canon), but i think they are more traitor than chaos.

[Legatus]

That's why they are most notorious for establishing and supporting Chaos cults all over the Imperium...

[Piousservant]

That's why they are most notorious for establishing and supporting Chaos cults all over the Imperium...

 

And yet.

 

The 41st millenium is full of shades of grey! There is someone else who does a lot of leg work for chaos cults but somehow seems to make the Imperium stronger (apparently). That dude called Cypher? Remember him?

 

Strength through conflict is a key theme of the Alpha Legion (in the IA not just Legion), which would fit in with the above. The Index Astartes: Alpha Legion may have have been black text on a white background but it was made of many different shades of grey. I have to say, I actually always thought it was too obvious in trying to stress how ambigious it was meant to be. Even if you choose to ignore Legion (though I honestly can't see why you would) the background of the Alpha Legion isn't as certain as it might otherwise seem. The only thing we can be certain about is that we can't be certain what the "truth" is. But of course, many things are true - "from a certain point of view"...

[Lay]

There is someone else who does a lot of leg work for chaos cults but somehow seems to make the Imperium stronger (apparently). That dude called Cypher? Remember him?

So far, there has yet to be any post-heresy fluff where the AL's actions actually strengthen the Imperium - directly or indirectly. There is however plenty of material where the opposite happens.

 

Even if you choose to ignore Legion (though I honestly can't see why you would) the background of the Alpha Legion isn't as certain as it might otherwise seem. The only thing we can be certain about is that we can't be certain what the "truth" is. But of course, many things are true - "from a certain point of view"...

Their post heresy fluff presents them as just as hostile towards the Imperium as the other Legions. Their attacks and campaigns are just as harmful.

[jeffersonian000]

Sorry for the threadomancy, but I just finished reading legion, and a few answers appeared to me during my reading that have not been mentioned be others above. Specifically, the Alpha Legion used very specific tactics throughout the book that are only used by one Imperial organization in the current timeline: The Inquisition.

 

Very old Inquisition fluff has documented a cabal of xenos and humans working together to defeat Chaos. This cabal has full access to the Black Library. The human side of the cabal is the Ordo Malleus. There exists a 2nd founding Space Marine chapter with no recorded 1st founding progenitor that just so happens to use the exact same methods and tactics as the Alpha Legion: The Grey Knights.

 

Both the Alpha Legion and the Grey Knights use human forces as covert and overt force multipliers (AL - their use of the 670th, GK - their ability to direct Imperial forces including IG and Marines), both use precise surgical teleport strikes in direct combat yet stealth and secrecy when outside of combat, and finally, Alpharius Omegon specifically pointed out the need for low-level, gestalt psykers to shield the forces fighting Chaos (AL - Geno Uxors, GK - GK).

 

I happen to concur with the thought that the AL chose the future that became the 40k we all know, and that they remain loyal to the Emperor and Humanity. I also believe that they had the full blessing of their Father. It is my opinion that Alpharius did not die, and that while Alpharius Omegon led the AL into the ranks of the heretic Astartes to undermine and control them, Alpharius Omegon assisted with the founding and command of Chapter 666 to continue their fight from inside the Imperium. As such, both organizations share information via their contacts which strengthens the AL's position among the Chaos forces while lending success to the Ordos in their overall fight versus Chaos spawned daemons.

 

SJ

[Legatus]

I think canon just shot itself.

[Gold Raven]

How do we know the Alphas didn't hedge their bets by playing both sides? Alpharius and Omegon were presented with two possible outcomes for the future, but only a fool believes that the future only branches in two directions.

 

Consider: one primarch willingly joins Horus with half of the Alpha Legion. The other remains loyal, but hidden, to the Emperor and sustains a force that can intervene if things go too far. They dodged both of the options presented by the Cabal, but not quite in the manner that they were hoping to accomplish. Humanity survived the next 10,000 years, but not without a few scars to show for it.

[Walter Payton]

How do we know the Alphas didn't hedge their bets by playing both sides?

 

You're thinking of the Lion...

 

Alpharius and Omegon were presented with two possible outcomes for the future, but only a fool believes that the future only branches in two directions.

 

Good point.

 

Consider: one primarch willingly joins Horus with half of the Alpha Legion. The other remains loyal, but hidden, to the Emperor and sustains a force that can intervene if things go too far. They dodged both of the options presented by the Cabal, but not quite in the manner that they were hoping to accomplish. Humanity survived the next 10,000 years, but not without a few scars to show for it.

 

Ah. But there doesn't seem to be any canon referencing this. It is possible. But it is not, at all, indicated ever. Even the Legion of the Dammned wouldn't fit this, and I can't thinl of any other options. I am not saying it is wrong, merely that it seems unlikely given that it hasn't (to my knowledge) been indicated at all in fluff.