Eidolon

[Gree]

When re-reading Horus Rising and Galaxy in Flames, I was struck again by Eidolon's incompetance in matters of war. His failure on Murder and inabiity to defeat Tarvitz through any other way than attrition or treachery. This strikes me as strange that such a poor commander could rise to such a high rank, especially in a legion like the Emperor's Children, who are noted for perfectionist nature and strategic planning. Eidolon susposedly had an excellent war record, but we never see it in action.

 

It's one thing if Eidolon is arrogant, but a skilled commander. It's another if he is both arrogant and a poor commander, which he had demonstrated multiple times. I kept one wondering while reading the novels exactly how someone like him ever got to a command rank with such poor abilities. I know Fulgrim is not an idiot.

[Legionator]

I agree with you. Eidolon was a really old fashioned villain, he was arrogant and stupid. He should have been a more original character.

[Brunensteiner]

Indeed.

 

Although from the books Im not so sure Fulgrim wasnt an idiot :)

[MCCCXXXVII]

I think that maybe he does have good military skills, but perhaps he lets his ambition for glory get in the way. If I can remember properly, on Murder, he rushed in and failed that campaign because he wanted to "save" the Blood Angels before anyone else could get there. On Isstvan III, he made that deal with Lucius because he wanted to be the reason that they achieved victory. I'm not saying these are good tactics, but perhaps his judgement is clouded whenever he sees a chance to gain favour.

[Imperialis_Dominatus]

It's difficult to make a character or army tactically skilled if you are not yourself well versed in such matters.

 

I don't think Graham McNeill, or very many of the BL staff, either have military experience or research deeply into such matters.

[Gree]

It's difficult to make a character or army tactically skilled if you are not yourself well versed in such matters.

 

I don't think Graham McNeill, or very many of the BL staff, either have military experience or research deeply into such matters.

 

It's not so much like that, they just have to make him win, look at Tarvitz.

[Midgard]

I am really hoping that Eidolon suffers an unpleasant and painful demise in one of the future books... just saying... (although wasn't there a bit of older fluff about him possibly being one of Abaddon's lieutenants in M.41?)

[Ashe Darke]

I want him to die by Tarvitz's hand. Even with his gifts from Slaanesh and Bile he would still beat him, proving that he was much more than a line officer.

[Rain]

Yeah Eidolon is still alive, he was mentioned both in the Emperors Children IA and I believe the WD fluff during the Eye of Terror campaign. That said, that doesn't really mean that he won't be killed in the novels as A.) the novels seem pretty free to retcon existing fluff and B.) Ignatius Grulgor's death didn't seem to stop him from reappearing on Medusa V in the "present day".

 

As for his incompetence, well he is too busy being eeeveeeeel and hating our freedom to fight properly. This is to make the novels more believable.

[Valdenaar]

Eidolon is arrogant to the hilt and maybe its his being a Lord Commander that serves to make him ten times more so to the point that it hampers his ability to command effectively. He's always out for personal glory and when he's fighting beside Fulgrim he doesn't have full command so he takes orders and is good at following them. But when he has his own independant commands the gloryhunter in him always makes him bumble and turn good plans into absolute failures as he tries to big himself up and outshine the other Legion commanders, who he refuses to believe are better than him or his equal.

[Burias-Drak'shal]

I think that the emperors children children are portrayed as having massive ego trips (the perfection idea they have), and therfore assume no one is better than them.

[Ju'kosian]

I think that the emperors children children are portrayed as having massive ego trips (the perfection idea they to have), and therfore assume no one is better than them.

yes indeed.

Eidolon is so full of himself.. Seems to me that Tarvitz and the other loyal captains (who are dead now, can't remember their names) are saner.

They still strive to reach perfection and things like that but not at cost of everything..

 

Too bad Eidolon is supposed to be still alive in the current timespan..

[Badaboom]

Seems to me that Eidolon was probably the kind of guy who´s always finding a way to take glory and mention off others who really do the real job, nothing more. Look at the other Lord Commander, the one who was killed by Fulgrim because he was too pure...That guy disliked Eidolon deeply, as he probably was a real soldier.

[Starblayde]

Even if Eidolon, the Primarch's favourite, gets a battle plan all wrong, the ordinary Astartes would/should be determined and skillful enough to turn almost any situation into victory. Any victory (however slender or pyrrhic) can be played up by Eidolon as a victory nonetheless. So, despite all his bad decisions and planning, he consistently brought victories.

 

Nevermind that Tarvitz could have probably brought better victories from his lowly position, Eidolon's string of 'perfect' results kept him in good favour, which was all-important in the pre-heresy Emperor's Children.

[Ashe Darke]

I like to think Tarvitz is still alive. There was talk about the hidden under ground hanger and I looked at the final part in Galaxy In Flames where people said about him looking up at the explosions and how they didn't try to hide, they didn't need to.

 

Well it doesn't say Tarvitz looked up, it just said it was going on in the sky. And why try and take cover when you don't need to because you're in an underground hanger ;)

 

It's not like I want him to live forever, just for him to live long enough to cause some more pain.

[ashrog]

Eidolon failing against Tarvitz says as much about Saul as it does about Eidolon. It doesn't necessarily mean that Eidolon is a bad leader/warrior/whatever, it just means that Saul is better. The reason Eidolon held a higher rank is because Tarvitz was happy to just do his job and not engage in the butt-kissing, intrigue, politics, etc, etc, that some of the other Children used to get ahead.

 

As for his other failures, yeah, chalk it up to arrogance. Seems like he's the kind of guy that wouldn't take responsibility for those failures. He would later try to blame it on someone else, thereby keeping "his" record clean.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

Eidolon failing against Tarvitz says as much about Saul as it does about Eidolon. It doesn't necessarily mean that Eidolon is a bad leader/warrior/whatever, it just means that Saul is better. The reason Eidolon held a higher rank is because Tarvitz was happy to just do his job and not engage in the butt-kissing, intrigue, politics, etc, etc, that some of the other Children used to get ahead.

 

"Butt kissing"?

 

The Emperors Children were all about perfection, so Tarvitz was considered good enough only to be a line officer.. Eidolon was Lord Commander - like Vespasian - because he excelled at his duty, not because he kissed arse.

[Dark Mechanicum]

Eidolon is one of those characters I look at and go "cmon Angron...kill him..please" whenever they are in the same room. And on Grulgor he was daemonically possessed on the Eisenstein and when the warp left his soul went so just like most demons..not dead just waiting.

[Clewz]

Eidolon failing against Tarvitz says as much about Saul as it does about Eidolon. It doesn't necessarily mean that Eidolon is a bad leader/warrior/whatever, it just means that Saul is better. The reason Eidolon held a higher rank is because Tarvitz was happy to just do his job and not engage in the butt-kissing, intrigue, politics, etc, etc, that some of the other Children used to get ahead.

 

"Butt kissing"?

 

The Emperors Children were all about perfection, so Tarvitz was considered good enough only to be a line officer.. Eidolon was Lord Commander - like Vespasian - because he excelled at his duty, not because he kissed arse.

 

Think duty is the wrong word there. Perhaps combat flair and finesse.

[ashrog]

Eidolon failing against Tarvitz says as much about Saul as it does about Eidolon. It doesn't necessarily mean that Eidolon is a bad leader/warrior/whatever, it just means that Saul is better. The reason Eidolon held a higher rank is because Tarvitz was happy to just do his job and not engage in the butt-kissing, intrigue, politics, etc, etc, that some of the other Children used to get ahead.

 

"Butt kissing"?

 

The Emperors Children were all about perfection, so Tarvitz was considered good enough only to be a line officer.. Eidolon was Lord Commander - like Vespasian - because he excelled at his duty, not because he kissed arse.

 

Yes, but how do you define perfection? What was their model? Fulgrim. To become more perfect, you have to make yourself more like Fulgrim. That's what I was referring to. "Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery."

[StrangeGuy]

Eidolon failing against Tarvitz says as much about Saul as it does about Eidolon. It doesn't necessarily mean that Eidolon is a bad leader/warrior/whatever, it just means that Saul is better. The reason Eidolon held a higher rank is because Tarvitz was happy to just do his job and not engage in the butt-kissing, intrigue, politics, etc, etc, that some of the other Children used to get ahead.

 

"Butt kissing"?

 

The Emperors Children were all about perfection, so Tarvitz was considered good enough only to be a line officer.. Eidolon was Lord Commander - like Vespasian - because he excelled at his duty, not because he kissed arse.

 

Think duty is the wrong word there. Perhaps combat flair and finesse.

 

This. It seems like the Emperor's Children had two kinds of officers, Line Officers (like Tarvitz) and the more Glorious heroic type (like Eidolon was supposed to be, and Lucius could possibly become). The line officers were the day to day, get the job done guys while the more heroic officers were the symbols that the Legion rallied around. That's just my take anyway.

[Midgard]

Well, if Dawn of War II is any indicator, in Chaos Rising one of the Blood Ravens mentions that "souls are like currency" in the Warp, and that even a Chaos Marine that died could be reborn/recreated at a whim of a daemon or a god, for whatever purpose. They use this explanation to explain a reappearance of a prominent character in Chaos Rising that was thought dead from a previous campaign, and I presume it can be used to explain Grulgor showing up at Medusa V (and possibly Eidolon as well, if Eidolon died without his soul being destroyed). Not sure how "canon" DOWII is, but it is the closest to an explanation presented in the universe (that, and the constant returning of Madox in Space Wolves books).

[Clewz]

Well, if Dawn of War II is any indicator, in Chaos Rising one of the Blood Ravens mentions that "souls are like currency" in the Warp, and that even a Chaos Marine that died could be reborn/recreated at a whim of a daemon or a god, for whatever purpose. They use this explanation to explain a reappearance of a prominent character in Chaos Rising that was thought dead from a previous campaign, and I presume it can be used to explain Grulgor showing up at Medusa V (and possibly Eidolon as well, if Eidolon died without his soul being destroyed). Not sure how "canon" DOWII is, but it is the closest to an explanation presented in the universe (that, and the constant returning of Madox in Space Wolves books).

 

Khârn the betrayer is the best example of that

[Rain]

Actually I would say Lucius would be a better example as A.) He has done it a lot and B.) He is also Slaaneshi, much like Eidolon.

 

Anyway, I personally don't consider the DoW games canon, but yes, Chaos characters don't seem to always die permanently. A more interesting idea for me though than them just being brought back is the time warping effects of the warp causing a younger pre-death version of them to appear after they have already died in real space. Come to think of it, I'm amazed they haven't used this plot device yet.

[Wrath of Terra]

It's pure GW. All the obvious characters turn evil. Well nearly all them. Psychopathic Angron, vain Fulgrim, mad Curze etc etc. Its lazy writting that's stood for years and that they're trying to ret-con now with Alpharius/Omegon and why they "turned".