Helsreach Novel Discussion

[Algesan]

If we are going to keep this up why not a Diaroma of the entire book?

 

My second would be....When Grimaldus kills the Imperial Guard Office, the commissar salutes and Grimaldus ignores him.....

 

 

 

 

Grimaldus, ignoring your commissars since the third war of Armeggedon

 

No, that one needs to be an action short. ;)

[Brother Taio]

Ahhh I haven't read it yet shut up ;)

[Focke]

If you haven't read Helsreach yet then I would advise against reading a thread called "Helsreach Novel Discussion". You might just come across some spoilers.

[BrotherSargeantDaro]

If you haven't read Helsreach yet then I would advise against reading a thread called "Helsreach Novel Discussion". You might just come across some spoilers.

 

+1 ^_^

[Galadren]

If you haven't read Helsreach yet then I would advise against reading a thread called "Helsreach Novel Discussion". You might just come across some spoilers.

 

Especially when it's 11 pages long...

[d@n]

I loved the hellsreach novel and A-D-B novels in general. Its made me collect Black templars.

[Marshal Pentacost]

I loved the hellsreach novel and A-D-B novels in general. Its made me collect Black templars.

 

...and hopfully shave off the Acquillas...

[Algesan]

I loved the hellsreach novel and A-D-B novels in general. Its made me collect Black templars.

 

...and hopfully shave off the Acquillas...

 

Only off the Marine battle armor, it gets to stay on the vehicles...

[waaanial00]

OK so stupid question (considering how long I have been on this board) but how do I enable the reading of spoilers?

 

Anyone?

 

Thanks

[Marshal Wilhelm]

OK so stupid question (considering how long I have been on this board) but how do I enable the reading of spoilers?

 

Anyone?

 

Thanks

 

Something like this

mmmkay?

 

 

either *square brackets*spoiler*square brackets* and the you close it with square brackets and /spoiler

 

or go to "Insert special item, after highlighting the text you want hidden, then click on insert:spoiler

[waaanial00]

Sorry Wilhelm we seem to have crossed wires.

 

I know how to

post

spoilers however I dont know how to read the text that they cover up. I cant seem to find the option within my controls to read spoilers.

 

Just to let you know, for future reference, if you need to explain "syntax" within a forum you can wrap it in the code tag.

 

For example if I was telling someone how to write the above bit it would be.

 

I know how to [spoiler]post[/spoiler] spoilers however I dont know how to read the text that they cover up.

 

Or here is how to write in bold

 

Or here is how to [b]write in bold[/b]

[Firepower]

Just highlight the censored text with your mouse, and it will become readable. Hurts the eyes something fierce though.

[waaanial00]

Just highlight the censored text with your mouse, and it will become readable. Hurts the eyes something fierce though.

 

Always looking for a technical solution when there is a simpler one available :D Thanks Firepower, a uniquely simply solution which I would never have stumbled upon as I was looking for something far more complicated.

 

I have a different skin so its actually not so bad. Though the guy who posts in yellow reduces my vision somewhat :D

[Algesan]

If you haven't read Helsreach yet then I would advise against reading a thread called "Helsreach Novel Discussion". You might just come across some spoilers.

 

Especially when it's 11 pages long...

 

Spoiler text is fine, but the two points above do kind of provide a warning.

 

Although, if I did choose to interject something about the Ultramarines movie, especially how great the sequence of looks play during the scene

in the armory where the guy with the banner asks "If the demon is dead, why is this still burning?"

 

 

Now that did require a spoiler because it is out of the blue in the thread.

[Walter Payton]

Chapter Knightfall

 

Oh Jesus, AD-B's been playing too much Star Wars: Battlefront II. A pun like that is what I'd expect from George Lucas, not you, AD-B :P

 

Poor joking aside, can't wait to see AD-B's take on loyalists.

[tyrannosaurus]

Bit of threadomancy here but nearly finished Helsreach and have to say I'm less than impressed. Based upon recommendations to get anything by A D-B I bought this and First Heretic the other day. My main gripe is the way that the Templars seem to question their orders, making them come across as spoilt children rather than genetically modified warrior monks. The part when Grimaldus says ""No" to the High Marshall when asked to stay at Helsreach pretty much ruined him as a character for me and he never really recovered. Especially as he is meant to be the spritual guide of the chapter as a whole - questioning the High Marshall in public is setting a good example? As far as I know in a military chain of command refusing a direct order is a serious offence and really spoilt the supsension of disbelief.

 

I picture Space Marines killing quietly, only speaking where necessary, rather than having stupid arguments or crises of conscience as the Templars do throughout. Ok this doesn't lend itself to much dialogue but what about internal thoughts and feelings? I'm at the point where Grimaldus tells the Salamander sergeant to get out of his city, again making him come across as a spoilt brat rather than a spiritual leader and veteran warrior. The Salamanders were portrayed much more realistically IMO, not questioning orders and focussing on protecting the civilians. I really feel this author failed to present a believable characterisation of Space Marines [Templars anyway] - I'm hoping he handles renegades better.

 

Some of the supporting characters were ok, and he did manage to create some suspense at times, although I feel the nature of the secret weapon could have been played out better. Also, Grimaldus risks losing the titans over this secret weapon which at the time is incredibly important, then says it's next to useless and should be ignored and was a waste of time? Where did the Master of the Forge come from, and would he be spared on this mission despite the repairs to their ship that I'm assuming would need to be made during the space battle?

 

Too many inconsistencies, and poor portrayal of Space Marine character IMO. A D-B should read 'Space Marine'by Ian Watson and try again.

[Dennis]

Bit of threadomancy here but nearly finished Helsreach and have to say I'm less than impressed. Based upon recommendations to get anything by A D-B I bought this and First Heretic the other day. My main gripe is the way that the Templars seem to question their orders, making them come across as spoilt children rather than genetically modified warrior monks. The part when Grimaldus says ""No" to the High Marshall when asked to stay at Helsreach pretty much ruined him as a character for me and he never really recovered. Especially as he is meant to be the spritual guide of the chapter as a whole - questioning the High Marshall in public is setting a good example? As far as I know in a military chain of command refusing a direct order is a serious offence and really spoilt the supsension of disbelief.

 

I picture Space Marines killing quietly, only speaking where necessary, rather than having stupid arguments or crises of conscience as the Templars do throughout. Ok this doesn't lend itself to much dialogue but what about internal thoughts and feelings? I'm at the point where Grimaldus tells the Salamander sergeant to get out of his city, again making him come across as a spoilt brat rather than a spiritual leader and veteran warrior. The Salamanders were portrayed much more realistically IMO, not questioning orders and focussing on protecting the civilians. I really feel this author failed to present a believable characterisation of Space Marines [Templars anyway] - I'm hoping he handles renegades better.

 

Some of the supporting characters were ok, and he did manage to create some suspense at times, although I feel the nature of the secret weapon could have been played out better. Also, Grimaldus risks losing the titans over this secret weapon which at the time is incredibly important, then says it's next to useless and should be ignored and was a waste of time? Where did the Master of the Forge come from, and would he be spared on this mission despite the repairs to their ship that I'm assuming would need to be made during the space battle?

 

Too many inconsistencies, and poor portrayal of Space Marine character IMO. A D-B should read 'Space Marine'by Ian Watson and try again.

 

Many people have argued about this, 'the feelings' of Grimaldus, in this thread. If you ever care about learning more about WHY ADB wrote the novel like this, browse this thread.

This novel is based upon the 'creation' of Grimaldus as he is now. If you remember correctly, his squad members also doubt his "spiritual leader" abilities, and so is Grimaldus himself as well. If you read a bit further, you will see Grimaldus transform in the 'spiritual leader' he needs to be as a Chaplain. Until the very end of the book, you could describe Grimaldus as a 'spoiled brat' indeed, because if you do not focus on Grimaldus, you'll see the other Templars DO NOT question the orders. The squad members begin to doubt, because their leader is doubting himself.

 

All your things are right, but only on the part of Grimaldus, but that is what this whole book is about.

 

And regarding your piece of

The Salamanders were portrayed much more realistically IMO, not questioning orders and focussing on protecting the civilians.

that's just the way of their Chapter. I agree with the Templars on this point, I would have gone for the Orkleader as well, crippling their 'structure' :)

[Roesor]

Hit them in the face with your sword! o.o

[tyrannosaurus]

Many people have argued about this, 'the feelings' of Grimaldus, in this thread. If you ever care about learning more about WHY ADB wrote the novel like this, browse this thread.

This novel is based upon the 'creation' of Grimaldus as he is now. If you remember correctly, his squad members also doubt his "spiritual leader" abilities, and so is Grimaldus himself as well. If you read a bit further, you will see Grimaldus transform in the 'spiritual leader' he needs to be as a Chaplain. Until the very end of the book, you could describe Grimaldus as a 'spoiled brat' indeed, because if you do not focus on Grimaldus, you'll see the other Templars DO NOT question the orders. The squad members begin to doubt, because their leader is doubting himself.

 

All your things are right, but only on the part of Grimaldus, but that is what this whole book is about.

 

Ok, I understand that Grimaldus is going on a kid of journey through this book, getting out of the shadow of his mentor, finding himself etc., but he's still a 200 year old veteran of countless wars when he get made Reclusiarch right? I just can't see any soldier questioning their superior officer in that way, let alone someone with as much experience as Grimaldus. And allowing himself to get punched by someone below him in the command structure? Again, ruins the suspension of disbelief which is necessary for a good novel.

 

And regarding your piece of

The Salamanders were portrayed much more realistically IMO, not questioning orders and focussing on protecting the civilians.

that's just the way of their Chapter. I agree with the Templars on this point, I would have gone for the Orkleader as well, crippling their 'structure' ;)

 

Ok I'll give you this one ;)

[Ring-around-the-roses]

Grimaldus does seem a bit of a ;) , as does most of the Templars after reading that book. Especially when they all go nuts in their last stand, laughing as they seem to lose nearly 100 geneseed and their Empy Champion. I am really hoping they will get more coverage, and prove to be noble knights of crusading legend, not just, we got the most, we are the best, don't question us you lesser Astartes/mortal/xenos scum.

[Marshal Rohr]

Grimaldus does seem a bit of a :( , as does most of the Templars after reading that book. Especially when they all go nuts in their last stand, laughing as they seem to lose nearly 100 geneseed and their Empy Champion. I am really hoping they will get more coverage, and prove to be noble knights of crusading legend, not just, we got the most, we are the best, don't question us you lesser Astartes/mortal/xenos scum.

 

 

Dude, its like being a modern day marine. They day you admit you may not be the best, is the day you stop being so dang effective :)

[Ring-around-the-roses]

True enough, and there were a few gems, in the book. And you could argue that most Astartes are like that, but the only Chapter i can recall being that dang prideful in their Absolute Awesomnes Bar None is the Astral Claws.

Its just my opinion, but ADB is the best becuase of his characters, and none of the BT clicked for me.

Although, i reserve judgement on the High Marshall, as he does seem to actually be hinged, and not 'Smite,Hate,Purge,Kill, Rip them into little peices of patheticness, for being themselves'

[Marshal Wilhelm]

This is a quote:

"Histories have been adjusted to fit a more cinematic paradigm with an eye to epic storytelling that will allow us to spin this yarn more eloquently and through broader narrative media."

 

Bit of threadomancy here but nearly finished Helsreach and have to say I'm less than impressed. Based upon recommendations to get anything by A D-B I bought this and First Heretic the other day. My main gripe is the way that the Templars seem to question their orders, making them come across as spoilt children rather than genetically modified warrior monks. The part when Grimaldus says ""No" to the High Marshall when asked to stay at Helsreach pretty much ruined him as a character for me and he never really recovered. Especially as he is meant to be the spritual guide of the chapter as a whole - questioning the High Marshall in public is setting a good example? As far as I know in a military chain of command refusing a direct order is a serious offence and really spoilt the supsension of disbelief.

 

I picture Space Marines killing quietly, only speaking where necessary, rather than having stupid arguments or crises of conscience as the Templars do throughout. Ok this doesn't lend itself to much dialogue but what about internal thoughts and feelings? I'm at the point where Grimaldus tells the Salamander sergeant to get out of his city, again making him come across as a spoilt brat rather than a spiritual leader and veteran warrior. The Salamanders were portrayed much more realistically IMO, not questioning orders and focussing on protecting the civilians. I really feel this author failed to present a believable characterisation of Space Marines [Templars anyway] - I'm hoping he handles renegades better.

 

Some of the supporting characters were ok, and he did manage to create some suspense at times, although I feel the nature of the secret weapon could have been played out better. Also, Grimaldus risks losing the titans over this secret weapon which at the time is incredibly important, then says it's next to useless and should be ignored and was a waste of time? Where did the Master of the Forge come from, and would he be spared on this mission despite the repairs to their ship that I'm assuming would need to be made during the space battle?

 

Too many inconsistencies, and poor portrayal of Space Marine character IMO. A D-B should read 'Space Marine'by Ian Watson and try again.

 

If you are looking for a real and gripping story, then perhaps 40K isn't for you in the first place?

Dudes run around with their helmets off, walking through a storm of small arms fire to chop some guys head off with a whirring chain 'sword'.

Men living for some 400 years because they have been GMed, and not only that, but they live such a life through constant warfare....

 

To get irked about Grimaldus questioning Helbrecht is missing the point entirely.

It shows just how shocked and humiliated Grimaldus was at being caste aside and for what real gain? Helbrecht pretty much thought the mission was hopeless.

 

To be glib, here is tyrannosaurus's Helsreach:

".... and Helbrecht said to Grimaldus 'go down to Hive Helsreach and kill xenos'

and Grimaldus responded 'Yes, lord.' So Grimaldus went down to Helsreach. Grimaldus and his band of warriors killed orks on Helsreach. They were quiet and did not engage in idle chit-chat, for that is not the way of Astartes. They went here and killed orks. Then they went there and killed orks. In between here and there, they bumped into some orks, and killed them.

Priamus said 'Reclusiarch, many orks have we killed, and it is good.'

Grimaldus responded 'Indeed. But must you ruin the moment with your incessant chatter?'

Priamus saw his failing, and bowed in response.

 

Some Salamanders fought alongside the Templars. A problem arose as the Salamanders were interested in saving 10,000 civilians. Grimaldus realised they were being naive tree-huggers, as by killing the Warboss, they might let those 10K die, but would save 100K in their place. But the Salamanders pulled out their plushy of a human civilian and stroked it then handed it to Grimaldus, he relented from his experience as a 200 year old killing machine and took up the plushy, as a tear ran down his face. 'Aw shucks', thought Gimaldus, 'how could I resist that?'

 

And so Grimaldus acknowledged the Salamanders request by nodding his head and grunting confirmation, whilst the plushy was tucked under his left arm and he sucked his right thumb."

 

A good read?

 

+++

 

In short, I think you have totally missed the point of the book. I think my satire shows this. Ian Watson's work have basically been moved away from, though it gets the occasional nod from the authors.

 

You are looking for something that just isn't present in any of the BL books, nor the 40K literature.

The universe itself is ScienceFANTASY.

 

Fantasy is all about great stories, not an inerrant and logically fool-proof story that has no holes in it.

 

When you read it with the right glasses on, ie ScienceFANTASY ones, then the errantness and loop-holes actually vanish.

 

Hopefully I have not come on as too harsh, but have made a point at the same time.

 

Put it this way, if something is not literally 100% perfect, it is flawed, right?

That means any piece of work can be pulled down and ripped apart.

 

When presented with a piece of glowing white paper, with a microlitre dot of red in the middle, do you zero in on the red dot, or do you enjoy the vast whiteness of the rest of the paper?

 

You don't have to like Helsreach, nor do you even need me saying that nor my permission. But....

If you are going to be half-empty about something, what will you ever enjoy?

 

Name a book you like, and I'm sure someone can drag that down too. Are you really interested in someone naysaying a book that you like? I'm not.

 

Grimaldus does seem a bit of a B) , as does most of the Templars after reading that book. Especially when they all go nuts in their last stand, laughing as they seem to lose nearly 100 geneseed and their Empy Champion. I am really hoping they will get more coverage, and prove to be noble knights of crusading legend, not just, we got the most, we are the best, don't question us you lesser Astartes/mortal/xenos scum.

 

"To get irked about Grimaldus questioning Helbrecht is missing the point entirely.

It shows just how shocked and humiliated Grimaldus was at being caste aside and for what real gain? Helbrecht pretty much thought the mission was hopeless."

So who was throwing away the gene-seed, laughing or not, in the first place?

 

+++

 

What gets me laughing is how people want to view their faction in 40K. GW has set up GrimDark. It is not how I would have done it, but it is the setting we are in. Sisters of Battle, Inquisitors and Black Templars are all 100% GrimDark.

 

Then people go for factions, such as Ultramarines or Space Wolves [based on the William King books] who are not even GrimDark at all. They were University aged jocks getting sloshed at kegger parties and rushing into battle boozed and gung ho.

 

Templars are 100% GrimDark. If you don't like them being mean and aloof, then you perhaps don't really like 'real' 40K in the first place?

I understand why people don't, and that is proven by Space Wolves being the most popular Marine faction. But Templars are actually satisfying the requirements that GW wrote in the first place.

[Algesan]

@tyrannosaurus: 1) I think it is in this thread somewhere, but there are other stresses in the story that got edited out to make the book fit a certain length or because it distracted from the story in the opinion of the editor. One of which is that the Emperor's Champion is one chosen by Helbrecht from a "failed" Crusade.

 

2) Depending on what you want out of Space Marines, the questioning of orders (while carrying them out) and the occasional physical shuffle among aggressive warriors happens in private. Yep, playing the personal experience card here. If you want them to sing hymns and never break discipline even in their thoughts, then Marshal Wilhelm wrote a great spoof of that kind of book.

 

3) Grimaldus is on a rite of passage, from nice little sub-officer to lead a charge by a squad while "daddy" (Mordred) looked on into the uber Chaplain war leader needed to replace what appears to be the Master of Sanctity for the Black Templars. This is part of it. Including Grimaldus' desire to stay a nice little sub-officer leading charges while "daddy" (Helbrecht) looked on. A lot of the tension in the book is from Grimaldus acting as the uber Chaplain war leader in public even while his doubts pollute his squad.

 

4) Interesting that the two inner council members who opposed Grimaldus' elevation ended up assigned to the Helsreach Crusade. Helbrecht is being a bit callous here, I'm sure he is well aware of Grimaldus' issues, but knows that Grimaldus and his brethren will at least make a memorable stand and the Black Templars need that presence on the ground. Helbrecht may also get the leader the Black Templars need and adds the two who opposed Grimaldus to make sure that they are satisfied with him. Either Helbrecht gets his Mordred replacement or Grimaldus stays a nice little sub-officer as he dies.

 

5) Of interest on the Space Wolf side, I like the Ragnar saga in the books, but I'll point out something I've discovered lately about pseudo-Norse neopagans. They are seriously clueless about the Nordic Viking culture. The entire mythic cycle is on the Grimdark side itself. It is a warrior cult religion and it really doesn't have much time for women, children and the wimps who won't die with their wounds forward. Read that way instead of with the modern revision (which leads to the image of sloshed aged jocks rushing into battle all gung-ho), then even the idea of Space Wolves (Vikings) fits quite well in the "grim darkness of the far future".

[Ring-around-the-roses]

Overall, i do like the book, i really do. I've just reread it though, and Grimaldus still doesn't click for me. I accept that you may feel that his attitude fits into the 'grimdark' of 40k, but you do not need the main character to be callous and aloof to make him 'grimdark'. Eisenhorn was a perfect Grimdark character, as he was tortured by his own beliefs and hunted by his friends. Still approchable, however.

However, the argument could easily swing back and forth. Let us just agree to disargree on the nature of 'Grimdarkness' and wether it is the character or the setting which affects it the most. I accept that you feel that Grimaldus is a effective character for portraying the unfeeling nature of Astartes, and i am going to agree with you up to a certain point, in that he is effective in showing how Astartes who are more removed from their humanity function and act in relation to the wider Imperial Guard.

 

Sorry if any of this is incromprehensible, or arrogant, but i am trying to lay out my personal feelings on the matter, and refrain from simply decrying Grimaldus as a :lol: without justification or reason.