Helsreach Novel Discussion

[jma037]

On the dragging power armor note, power armor is made of a ceramic and titanium alloy I believe? I know ceramics aren't that heavy in comparison to say iron, and I can't imagine the titanium used would burden it much more. I can see 2 fairly fit humans dragging a space marine along. He would be pretty heavy, but its not unbelieveable.

 

How much does a marine weigh? What about that bulky looking powerpack on his back? Ever dragged the biggest dude in the troop with all his kit? Now imagine him holding onto a Mini couper.

[Vangarde23]

Longtime lurker, but made my account after seeing the recent thread that got merged into the main one.

 

I am a big fan of ADB's work so far. His portrayal of the 40k word is heads above the vast majority of the action pulp.

So he interpreted a few things differently than you have. Does it detract from the story at all? I think its a little disingenuous to criticize him for the most minor of fluff interpretations.

 

Not all hives are alike. And i still think its coneshaped in general, there i still open sky hab blocks of certain tiers. Like a wedding cake. Had no issues portraying it in my mind has godbreaker marched around.

And two humans dragging a power armored space marine. Are we really gonna complain about such little things? It didn't ruin the story for me. After having it pointed out, whats the other alternative? Leave the black templar there? It helped the nuances of the storyline more than it did not by showing that even the imperial infantry fighting with the templars knew that something inside the astartes made it important to recover the body. Legacy is important. It's a huge theme in the end i think.

 

The reason why i make this post is to encourage Black Library authors to come and visit forums more and share their thinking process in the creation of their next novels and such. I want a positive environment in the progression of the further expansion of the 40k universe. Lets not drive them out for the most petty of reasons. Thats what happened in the blizzard forums when it comes to class balance in world of warcraft. =P

[Teutonicorder]

id rather have accurate books than non accurate books, just one mans opinion.

 

and by accurate i mean solid with previous fluff about the exact same subject. if this happened on a made up world weve never heard of before knock yourself out. but when you tackle something already written about i just think it should gel with your work in some way.

 

one mans opinion thats all :)

 

as for authors, if your an author the hazing you get from forums is nothing, nothing in comparison to your average publishers comments about nearly any published work you can name. id rather not have such fragile ego'd individuals in any public forum let alone one where active debate happens on the subject.

[Brother_Kaelgrim]

On the dragging power armor note, power armor is made of a ceramic and titanium alloy I believe? I know ceramics aren't that heavy in comparison to say iron, and I can't imagine the titanium used would burden it much more. I can see 2 fairly fit humans dragging a space marine along. He would be pretty heavy, but its not unbelieveable.

 

How much does a marine weigh? What about that bulky looking powerpack on his back? Ever dragged the biggest dude in the troop with all his kit? Now imagine him holding onto a Mini couper.

 

Unfortunately without some empirical data on how much a marine with kit weighs, its hard to say whether he would weigh as much as a mini coup or if he was a more manageable weight. There could be systems in the armor itself that lighten it to prevent the marines from falling through thin ice or things like that. Without some solid info, I would say its just as reasonable as unreasonable.

[Teutonicorder]

well....thats a bit harder of a point its true but...

 

all we have is the fact a bolter is hard for the average man to handle. size and kick back etc so for a marine to fire it as haphazerdly as they do they gotta be strong, also ref carrying heavy bolters etc etc. ok so a marine is super strong. muscle weighs more than fat. you try dragging a body builder around, somewhat challenging, now make him an extra foot taller and encase him in power armour....who the hell knows lol

 

 

as an amusing aside to break the tension a bolter actually has a shorter range than a 1815 musket.

 

marine is 7 foot tall, represented by 1.5 inches of plastic. bolter fires 24 inches single shot or 112 feet. a musket shot 192 feet.

 

old thing worked out waaaay back in the day from somewhere but always made me lol when i got too involved in one of these discussions :)

[Vangarde23]

In the end maybe it was a fruitless endeavor. The scene cuts off just as they start trying to drag the marine to a safer place. Maybe they struggled and had to call upon the rest of the ragtag militia party to help.

[Brother_Kaelgrim]

My point exactly. It may be something that when you sit down and actually look at the data for it it seems impossible but in the context of a story and given the quality of the work as a whole, I think its a bit nitpicky to dwell on it over long.

 

However, I can definitely see that if you notice that discrepancy while reading it can be a bit jarring. But hey, at least its not rhinos transforming into landraiders and back again right?

[jma037]

Why does people think that when someone critizises something, it means that they don't like it? I for one loved the book. "Get out of my city." The recovery of the black sword. Soo bad ass. But it is because I love the book, that's why these basic factual inconsistencies are so jarring. In a world so immersive, we suddenly feel like we're in the boom docks mingling with Irish dock workers. Instead of in the Docks district in HIVE Helsreach on Arma-freaking-geddon.

 

It's a cop out to say that people living in an imperial world. That survived two massive invasions from Chaos and Orks. With legions known in the far reaches of the stars. Models of resistence. We have abled bodied males that never held a lasgun before? You fanbois are welcome to explain your way out of this one.

[Teutonicorder]

However, I can definitely see that if you notice that discrepancy while reading it can be a bit jarring. But hey, at least its not rhinos transforming into landraiders and back again right?

 

 

this really is the key for me. a good book envelopes you in its world and when you read somethign that conflicts with something you already had entrenched from previous reading or study it derails the train and you lose out for a bit untill you get back into the world presented by the author. cept now your looking for other errors and it detracts.

 

 

after all its the writers job to know what hes talking about. and if your talking about a subject already writtena bout it helps to know the previous info so u dont screw up. you want flat hive cities awsome dont put it on armaggedon. its just too well written about as a desolate waste land and towering spires etc etc to suddenly have differences as an example.

 

planet bob can have any damn thing you want on it, a hive, death, agri world with feral orks trading with rainbow marines who think the tau are ok and a pdf mostly filled with mutants and a eldar planetary governor whos actually the reincarnation of khaine. but not on armageddon

[Brother_Kaelgrim]

Its simple. We are talking about a massive planet with a massive population. Also, from what I understand of the Armageddon Wars, only select hives and areas were majorly hit. It was my understanding that Helsreach was not hit from the previous Ork invasion. And since it is a hive, I would imagine a dock worker who had lived there all his life, most likely spent the previous wars working overtime shifts to supply promethium from the oil rigs to the other hives, and generally stayed in a city that may or may not have seen combat would not know how to handle a lasgun.

 

And apologies if it seems that most, including myself, took your comments as meaning you didn't like the book. Criticism is well and good however the manner in which you delivered said criticisms implied that you did not like the book and thought the author lazy and lax in his fact checking. This may not have been how you actually felt, but since we only have words to go on here your word choice implied that to me at least.

 

So I do apologize if it seemed that way. That being said, I'm happy to discuss/dispute points as brought up.

 

 

I would also like to point that as to my knowledge, Helsreach had not been described beyond Grimaldus' bio in the BT codex. So we really didn't have much info on the city. And while it may be flat (which isn't quite the truth if I was reading the book accurately) it is but one city on the planet which means the majority may still be those soaring spires one is accustomed to.

[Teutonicorder]

correct in your point that this spire is not exactly described. but consider the surrounding evidence. a hive doesnt get to be a hive unless potentially billions of people live there. and on a planet where useable space is not overly abundant, plus the descriptions of the other hives we do know about on armageddon, wouldnt that support a taller hive. what makes this city different from the rest? its too out of the ordinary to be easily explained away imo.

[jma037]

How come no one is mentioning the colour map in the middle of the book??

 

Look at the map. Look at the elevation, or section of the hive. Now die a little on the inside.

 

Also. What's with the use of the rank "sargeant" in a black templar crusade?

[Brother_Kaelgrim]

Actually from what I can tell, Armageddon has some broad swathes of barren land. Land that could house cities if the need arises. Also note that the only importance Helsreach had was it was a supplier city. Its purpose was to refine promethium and transport it. It was an industrial city and was I believe described as one of the smaller cities in the area. And it could conceivably cover a vast swathe of terrain that would mean its not as towering as other cities.

 

 

And yet I would also point out that height of buildings is rather relative. I do not know if you have read any of the Gaunt's Ghosts series, but Verunhive as I mentioned before had a tall spire that one could associate with the traditional hive city, but it also had sprawling habs and factories all along its girth. I would imagine that Helsreach had the same since it had buildings tall enough

to cripple an Imperator Titan.

 

[A D-B]

Also. What's with the use of the rank "sargeant" in a black templar crusade?

 

Dunno. Could be it's a rank used to refer to a sergeant. I think it sounds more catchy to say "Sergeant" in prose, rather than "Guy who has rules on page 33 of Codex: Black Templars".

[Teutonicorder]

fair points, but its definitly described as a hive. not just a supplier city.

 

also the temple was described as "vast basilica" referencing tallness. now it doesnt say it dwarfs other buildings in the area. so they built at least one building up high, youd think that would block at least someones view of the roks raining down on them ;)

 

also Verunhive is described as having outer mining areas if i recall and could create more a sense of sky and more relatively low level city design rather than just upwards. armageddons hives are just described differently it would seem form most availiable sources. ok so weve discredited one but most of them say the same thing, thus the discussion here (and it is a discussion not an argument) if there was supporting arguments for armageddon having these cities and areas then wed not be sat here typing but it wasnt. i just think you should stick to pre written fluff. you dont liek it, theres like a million other planets out there :D

 

what if i wrote a book about the blood angels and started messing with baal. its pretty green and lovely in that part over there, you just read about the inhospitable parts, angle falls is actually just a stream. na if your writing about baal you wright about how screwed up it is and that lends its self to the chapter of blood angels.

 

templars dont have a homeworld but if theres one thing that gives our chapter character its the war for armageddon.

[Teutonicorder]

Also. What's with the use of the rank "sargeant" in a black templar crusade?

 

Dunno. Could be it's a rank used to refer to a sergeant. I think it sounds more catchy to say "Sergeant" in prose, rather than "Guy who has rules on page 33 of Codex: Black Templars".

 

 

which was a fluff screw up by GW and blatently copied over straight from the marine dex without proof reading.

[Brother_Kaelgrim]

Also. What's with the use of the rank "sargeant" in a black templar crusade?

 

Dunno. Could be it's a rank used to refer to a sergeant. I think it sounds more catchy to say "Sergeant" in prose, rather than "Guy who has rules on page 33 of Codex: Black Templars".

 

 

And isn't it clearly stated that Templars prefer a very ad-hoc arrangement of forces? Sounds like they would use pre-existing ranks when appropriate to expedite a clear chain of command in a fluid situation.

 

 

As to your points Teuton, I simply have to ask, have you read much Black Library? Many authors have committed much much worse errors, from the previously mentioned transforming rhinos to shoe-horned second founding chapters nobody had ever heard of.

 

That being said, that doesn't excuse ADB from mistakes, however I feel that all he did was describe and flesh out what was a very curtly described event. The only information I can think of offhand about Helsreach is Grimaldus' entry in the dex. And that doesn't really give us much of an idea of the city layout and other key points. As to Verunhive being low to the ground as a mining city, it should be noted that they did have the Spire which would have been the part of the city most readily identified as the Hive part. And correct me if I'm wrong, but I do not think you have noticed the spoiler tagged buildings I've mentioned earlier. Its clear that the Temple was not the only cyclopean structure of Helsreach.

[jma037]

One other disappointment is the lack of neophytes. This could be developed into something great. But alas. It was not.

[A D-B]

Also. What's with the use of the rank "sargeant" in a black templar crusade?

 

Dunno. Could be it's a rank used to refer to a sergeant. I think it sounds more catchy to say "Sergeant" in prose, rather than "Guy who has rules on page 33 of Codex: Black Templars".

 

 

which was a fluff screw up by GW and blatently copied over straight from the marine dex without proof reading.

 

And mentioned in other Black Templar stories since.

 

Look, I get where you're coming from. Your nitpicks mean a lot to you. But what do you want from me? To agree with you? I told you, I already asked Games Workshop about the hive thing before I went anywhere near the book. I'm sorry if I'll take their word over yours. I don't see it as a mistake, and my sources are peachy-keen on that score. You see it as a blasphemy that requires a lot of discussion. I can dig that. I spill a lot of word count over stuff, too. You should see me rage at my brother when he gets stuff about Star Wars wrong. My anger can be tracked from space. It shows up on radar. I weep blood for six hundred and sixty-six nights of pain.

 

But everything else that's been said has either been shot down or cleared up by other people, through the joys of perception, research and nuance.

[Teutonicorder]

to Brother_Kaelgrim

 

yes i used to read a great many and ranted about all the errors i found in them too, and always got the same responses weve seen here, its just a shame the writing side of the hobby is still stuck in the amateur stages when it could have true potential. being some what of a writer myself when i finally get to read someone elses fiction and forget all the other crap that bothers us from day to day it irritates me when the same mistakes are made that were made in Inferno! back in 1997 and that are easily avoided.

 

and whats worst is when you point them out, you get the same weak crap always used to defend the authors etc and i just wish that after 13 years theyd improve their standards.

 

also i said outer areas on verunhive, the hives on armageddon as far as im aware had few outer ares ever refferenced, minor technicallity and not overly important.

 

to ADB all i ask is you write better books and spend 5 mins researching. if i ask a priest his opinion of his church hell probably be overflowing with praise and joy but it may not be the most fair view of the faith in question.

 

look no GW staffer should be expected to know every bit of fluff and keep score of everything in this huge universe they created. im sure they said it was ok. but you chose to center in on a certian part and it was your job to know that helsreach was a hive city and as such tall and work out the repercusions of that fiction fact on your story. if you produced a 40k book with no inaccuracies and no points like this, which imo is not that hard to do, it would be lauded. id be the first to jump up and say this is a great book well done.

 

but you didnt and as you wrote about my chapter, its only right that here on a board dedicated to small plastic figures where we all post and you have registered, that points are made so future books are better. i want more templar focused books but maybe its best for everyone if they are set some place new so you can have your flat cities and super strong civilians on a war torn world run by gangs who have never handled a firearm before.

[A D-B]

to Brother_Kaelgrim

 

yes i used to read a great many and ranted about all the errors i found in them too, and always got the same responses weve seen here, its just a shame the writing side of the hobby is still stuck in the amateur stages when it could have true potential. being some what of a writer myself...

 

to ADB all i ask is you write better books and spend 5 mins researching. if i ask a priest his opinion of his church hell probably be overflowing with praise and joy but it may not be the most fair view of the faith in question.

 

look no GW staffer should be expected to know every bit of fluff and keep score of everything in this huge universe they created. im sure they said it was ok. but you chose to center in on a certian part and it was your job to know that helsreach was a hive city and as such tall and work out the repercusions of that fiction fact on your story. if you produced a 40k book with no inaccuracies and no points like this, which imo is not that hard to do, it would be lauded. id be the first to jump up and say this is a great book well done.

 

but you didnt and as you wrote about my chapter, its only right that here on a board dedicated to small plastic figures where we all post and you have registered, that points are made so future books are better. i want more templar focused books but maybe its best for everyone if they are set some place new so you can have your flat cities and super strong civilians on a war torn world run by gangs who have never handled a firearm before.

 

I will treasure this post forever and ever.

[Brother_Kaelgrim]

Well I'm going to say this and you can take it as you will, but you are behaving as if ADB did not put any research into this book.

 

As a fan of his, I can say he does, and when I say he does, I mean he goes through every bit of fluff that he can get from GW, books we can't even find anymore, and pours over that info. Out of all the Black Library authors out there, I rank him as one of the best when it comes to checking his facts and being accurate to the universe.

 

What I think is going on here is that from the sounds of it, you have some precedents you have set for your view of both the chapter and of Armageddon. While that is understandable, I have yet to see a specific source as to where you are pulling your info from. Remember that the majority of sources out there describe broad sweeping views of the battles and landscapes and are also written from the PoV of Imperial Historians. This means that yes, the previous sources for Armageddon can be wrong.

 

It is a unique position that a BL author can take with the fluff in that the entire universe is based on ambiguity. And its the author's job to flesh out those little bits that the broad histories can fail to cover.

 

 

Consider in the Gaunts Ghosts, the Imperial Histories probably depict things very differently than how the actual account went. Such is the nature of BL publications.

 

And in this occasion, it seems like you are fixated on the history view and aren't liking the *personal* view. Thats fine and you are entitled to that opinion. But I wouldn't fault the author for that and I wouldn't imply that he put no effort into researching it.

[StrangeGuy]

to ADB all i ask is you write better books and spend 5 mins researching. if i ask a priest his opinion of his church hell probably be overflowing with praise and joy but it may not be the most fair view of the faith in question.

 

Helsreach was a great book. Very enjoyable.

 

look no GW staffer should be expected to know every bit of fluff and keep score of everything in this huge universe they created. im sure they said it was ok. but you chose to center in on a certian part and it was your job to know that helsreach was a hive city and as such tall and work out the repercusions of that fiction fact on your story. if you produced a 40k book with no inaccuracies and no points like this, which imo is not that hard to do, it would be lauded. id be the first to jump up and say this is a great book well done.

 

Since it's so easy to produce a 40k book with no inaccuracies or "points like this", why don't you write one so we can all read your version of the grim dark future? Why don't you get it published by the Black Library?

 

but you didnt and as you wrote about my chapter,

 

No, he wrote about MY chapter, and did a damned fine job of it.

 

its only right that here on a board dedicated to small plastic figures where we all post and you have registered, that points are made so future books are better.

 

This seems like something for the black library's site. The Bolter and Chainsword is not an official Games Workshop site.

 

i want more templar focused books but maybe its best for everyone if they are set some place new so you can have your flat cities and super strong civilians on a war torn world run by gangs who have never handled a firearm before.

 

As do the rest of us, but if when a truly excellent Black Templars novel is written, and some guy on a forum does nothing but rant about it and decry it, why should anyone want to write another one?

[Vangarde23]

Opposite reaction, i think most of black library and sci-fi fantasy books are drivel except for a certain few. ADB's stories are actually interesting. I gave a bunch of black library books to my roommate to read. He had no idea what 40k is at all. He loved Soul Hunter and Helsreach (and also brothers of the snake despite the fluff travesty even i can't ignore) and thought the rest was crap due to shoddy pacing and writing. Action pulp is the word i like to use to describe most of it.

 

So yes, i will post in defense of this new style because its the first time I walked into a barnes and nobles to buy scifi novels and not college textbooks in a long time. I rather have a coherent and interesting novel to read at the cost of a little fluff in a vast universe that many fans still can't agree on what is correct or not. (how strong are lasguns? how tough are space marines? why do bolter shells have casings? what exactly is the layout of helsreach down to each block?)

 

He raised the bar for writing in scifi. You can knock on fluff inconsistencies, but I don't see any valid argument to knock on writing quality or pacing. It is way above amateur if its able to intrigue new readers of the 40k universe and get good ratings from critics that normally decry the majority of this stuff as drivel.

[jma037]

Aaron looked thoughtful as he asked the question: "Is every single Imperial hive done in the classic Necromunda-style, or is it a generic, oppressive-sounding noun for Imperial urbanscapes?"

 

"It's the latter," said Games Workshop.

 

"Okay," said Aaron.

http://themoderatevoice.com/wordpress-engine/files/2009-january/bow_down.gif

 

Oh Mighty Aaron! I am humbled before your magnificence. I must be truly blind to have not realized that I was addressing the boon of my pitiful existence. It has taken me this long to realize you are the very same godly personage that penned the book which brought joy to my unworthy life. I prostrate myself before you. I am unworthy.