Helsreach Novel Discussion

[Vangarde23]

so wait, by writing BL library novels i can gain cult followers to do my every bidding? Time to change my college major. =D

[Drac0]

In my opinion, criticism is always welcome as long as its a constructive critic, well founded and not presented as a rant.

I wont get into specifics about the writing in the book, descriptions and such because, as much as I hate to say it, I haven't read it yet, still waiting for it (could have read a pdf, but I rather read printed versions, specially when it is a book about OUR chapter.)

 

By now you should be wondering "why is this guy barging in if he didn't even read the book"

Quite simple really.

I've seen posts criticising hive and building sizes, BT hierarchy (or chain of command) and lack of research. What some people seem to have forgotten is that our beloved GW changes the fluff as often as *deleted* (let's just say 'they like'). It just doesn't stop!

 

All in all, in first place we should all be grateful to finally have a full novel about BT (and I'm saying this without having read the book)

 

I can only imagine the hell it must have been putting all of the fluff pieces together and the having to decide which piece overrules which.

[Brother_Cowboy]

Firstly. Drac0... wow, mental image.

 

Secondly

 

Oh Mighty Aaron! I am humbled before your magnificence. I must be truly blind to have not realized that I was addressing the boon of my pitiful existence. It has taken me this long to realize you are the very same godly personage that penned the book which brought joy to my unworthy life. I prostrate myself before you. I am unworthy

You're a tool. The guy has taken the time to actually post on a thread, to seek some sort of interaction with his readers and you go and pull that kind of garbage. He was civil and everything

 

And lastly. Does it really matter if someone takes liberties with the fluff, so long as it aids the story? Abnett does it all the time (to an extent), and I've never not enjoyed an Abnett novel. Brothers of the snake included. Over the top, but awesome.

 

In this readers humble opinion, the focus is really on the characters that inhabit the universe. Which, in the case of Helsreach, are well-rounded, interesting characters unlike some of the other Space marine novels out there (see; sons of dorn).

 

Never mind the difficulty in pleasing everyone with an encyclopedic knowledge of the 40k universe. Thats the easy part. The real challenge to writing a space marine novel is allowing the reader to relate to the them, yet still keep that sense of mastery that a nine foot tall, centuries old post human carries with them. And Helsreach does that well.

 

Frankly I'd kill to read more from A D-B, especially if it had to do with the Templars. I'd also love to see some more done with Grim' (Omnibus anyone?). Either way. Keep it up.

 

Also. Andrej totally sounds like his french canadian or something.

[jma037]

Firstly. Drac0... wow, mental image.

 

Secondly

 

Oh Mighty Aaron! I am humbled before your magnificence. I must be truly blind to have not realized that I was addressing the boon of my pitiful existence. It has taken me this long to realize you are the very same godly personage that penned the book which brought joy to my unworthy life. I prostrate myself before you. I am unworthy

You're a tool. The guy has taken the time to actually post on a thread, to seek some sort of interaction with his readers and you go and pull that kind of garbage. He was civil and everything

 

Damn it! How I wish there is a [sarcasm][/sarcasm] tag! Because in this case you will realise that it's NOT in the html. Here I am. Having a conversation about a book I've read in two days after it first hit the shelves with some "random" on the internet. Only to realise that this "random" is the very same person that penned it.

 

Maybe I should repost my disclaimer from earlier. I loved the book. It's because I loved it so much that it pains me, like a favoured son that got 97% in a maths test.

 

I shall now ritually purify myself for addressing the Mighty and Most Noble Aaron without performing the correct rituals and rite of worship.

[Marshal Rohr]

Someone close this thread quickly!!!! Invisi it too! Someone think of the children.

 

 

 

Also, fluff mistakes don't make you a bad writer. Second, he had access to litterally EVERY piece of information on the Templars. He read all of it. Do you know what kind of illegal and immoral things I would do for that?

 

 

I have always figured the Templars would have Sergeants, the rank did come from medieval Sergeants at arms. The Templars probobaly call all of their veterans who arn't sword brethren sergeants. Besides look at the new codex space marines, all the command squad personnel, which is what squad Grimaldus is, are veterans, but they arnt in the 1st CO. I wouldn't mind if nonSB vets in the Templars are called SErgeants. You dont need rules to have ranks.

 

As for the hive thing, expand your mind a little bit.

 

It's not that you don't have a right to criticism, but your criticism sucks and is executed very poorly with little respect for the amount of time the author spent on the work. Other than your already stated complaints, how did you feel about the plot? The character development? What about the language or immersivness? You know, the real things books are critiqued on. Not the in depth description of a Hive.

[Tranc]

to ADB all i ask is you write better books and spend 5 mins researching.

This is way out of line. I for one am glad ADB interacts with his fans and hopes he continues to do so despite comments like this.

 

Marshal2 Crusaders -- you're right on! Plot, character development, immersiveness (immersivity? Is that a word?) are all way more important than getting every single fluff detail correct, although I sense Aaron puts a lot of effort into doing all of the above.

[Chaplain ChonkE]

The author did a great job in adding to the flavor of the soup without ruining the recipe. All the things he added were common sense and almost no-brainer things which are awesome. Master of the Forge had me turning backflips. A Mandate of the Eternal Crusade had me fist pumping. Sergeants who are not part of the Marshal's Household. All things that would make sense in a Chapter/Legion like the Templars. The fluff (that exists! there isnt much fluff btw, we are the new Kids afterall) was handled delicately and the little touches were awesome. *Real* Artificer Armor vs Techmarine Artificer. I get it now ;)

 

I mean, if you are complaining about the adherence to fluff about how you think all sci-fi cities should look like the Jetsons or Sky City out of Star Wars in your mind come on! This guy sticks to the stuff. I mean, ADB's Marines dont even pick up other weapons when they run out of Holy Bolter shells for the Emperor's sake!!! They run out of shells and the Marine is like "Oh, this is an inconvenience. I bet the others are out too. I am just gonna be a big boy and suck it up," cause he still has melee weapons and his hands. This is a far cry from other Marines who pick up guns (WHICH MAKES SENSE!) cause they run out of ammo. They wouldnt even think of picking up some Xenos filth or "Lesser" weapon to do their work. Dorn's Knights are filled with Righteous hatred.

 

Where is the Righteous Zeal though?

[Marshal Rohr]

I can't describe how awesome their in-fight mindset was. It wasn't bloodlust, it wasn't survival. They killed because the enemy didn't deserve to live. That's awesome. That makes up for any discrepencies, the few there were.

 

 

 

My Helsreach planetary empires boards will be done one day.....

[Ashe Darke]

Regarding the flat hive. Despite all the stuff was said before, ever considered that in last war the place suffered horrific damage and had to be rebuilt, and after 50 odd years they didn't manage to get that high yet?

 

And as for people having a go a Grimaldus. Yes he was a chaplain, a newly appointed one and a lot of people felt didn't deserve to be one and wasn't doing a particularly good job of being one. And you're surprised they didn't snap in a desperate situation and vent on him?

[Piousservant]

The most disappointing thing about Helsreach, for me (and for GW I guess...) is that I still can't bring myself to build a Black Templar army...

 

I loved the book, and I loved the portrayal of the Grimaldus and the other Black Templars and based on the book (and the background) I'd like to build an army of them, but not enough to get over my dislike of their aesthetics. Mostly it's the colour scheme but it's a little bit of their appearance, I guess it's a bit OT for this thread but I thought I'd mention it. :)

 

On topic, I found it more pacey than Soul Hunter and I personally enjoyed it more. Minor fluff, ah, inconsistancies don't really bother me. And I don't mean the description of the hive or the men dragging the fallen marine by that since the first doesn't contradict the background and the second is not something anyone knows the answer to. To be honest, when I was reading the book I didn't have a problem with the men dragging the fallen marine. Reflecting on it now, it might be more dubious but I don't feel that detracts from the book.

 

The only thing I felt was a little iffy at times was the portrayal of Grimaldus, but that kind of thing is personal taste/interpretation so the author is as "right" as I am (well most of the time they're probably more right in all reality but still...). I understand the idea/concept and I get why he was pissed about being dumped in Helsreach but it just felt a little overplayed in my opinion. It's only a really minor thing, as I think his development through the story was done well, though I was also disappointed that we only got the one big speechy moment from Grimaldus.

[Gunslinger87]

Mr. Bowden, I haven't read the book in question, but I've been keeping up on your blog and I can see that you have a great sense of humour and skill to boot. Please don't let yourself get tired of all this ranting and stop contributing to both these forums and elsewhere.

 

Kudos to ADB, Graham McNeill, Dan Abnett, Nick Kyme, James Swallow and the other HH writers. I haven't had the time to read much beyond the HH, but that stuff really surprised me with its quality.

 

Besides my quirks for Stephen King, I'm more of a classical reader and I came into this expecting some quasi-pro fanfiction stuff nevertheless in a universe that I love, but was pleasantly surprised. I've read over 20 books from 40K since last month and I'm only now getting into my stride.

[Brother Loring]

So this has now gone a little off of topic and started to discuss the author more than the book.

 

We will be reviewing all posted material to date in the thread and assessing it's appropriateness for the board.

 

Remember, posting is a privilege not a right and rules must be adhered to. By all means discuss the book, it's content and give your opinion of the book, not the author.

 

I would like to thank ADB firstly for writing about our beloved chapter and secondly for entering the discussion and attempting to answer some of the concerns/queries our members have posted. If people were a little more constructive n their criticism, it may actually help in the writing of the next BT book instead of dissuading an author from approaching the subject.

 

If you feel there is an inaccuracy in the book, by all means mention it. DO NOT take it further and continue to criticise the effort taken by the author to compile the text.

 

This is the first and only warning.

 

p.s. if any of you wish to re-read your posts and edit anything you feel is inappropriate in the cold light of day, it would certainly make things easier!

[Walter Payton]

So this has now gone a little off of topic and started to discuss the author more than the book.

 

We will be reviewing all posted material to date in the thread and assessing it's appropriateness for the board.

 

Remember, posting is a privilege not a right and rules must be adhered to. By all means discuss the book, it's content and give your opinion of the book, not the author.

 

I would like to thank ADB firstly for writing about our beloved chapter and secondly for entering the discussion and attempting to answer some of the concerns/queries our members have posted. If people were a little more constructive n their criticism, it may actually help in the writing of the next BT book instead of dissuading an author from approaching the subject.

 

If you feel there is an inaccuracy in the book, by all means mention it. DO NOT take it further and continue to criticise the effort taken by the author to compile the text.

 

This is the first and only warning.

 

p.s. if any of you wish to re-read your posts and edit anything you feel is inappropriate in the cold light of day, it would certainly make things easier!

 

And let that be an end to the matter.

 

EDIT: A quick timeline check revealed several interesting things about 'flat' Hive Helsreach and the 'why oh why can't they fight anyone, there should be lots of hive gangs, wah wah wah.' gripe:

 

1st: The 2nd War for Armageddon ended in 942M41. The 3rd War for Armageddon began in 998M41. That's a difference of 56 years. This means several things: Firstly, any un-augmented humans (of whom we can assume there are lots) will be either dead of old age or decrepit to the point that they will be unable to perform front-line duties. Even if the Imperium used child soldiers, which it probably didn't, seeing as most of the citizenry were evacuated, they would still be at least 64 (assuming they were eight, the average age of child soldiers today). Of course, this is all academic seeing as the fluff tells us that they were nearly wiped out to the last man in the 2nd War.

 

2nd: Hives build up over many thousands of years. Helsreach, after a fair while in the hands of Orks, would likely be fairly ruined. If we have a real world comparison, Berlin, after WW2 ended, took until 1985 (40 years) to be repaired, and there is no way the Red Army were as savage as the Orks, and also, that Berlin and Helsreach were equal in size.

 

From this, we can assume that the Helsreach of Helsreach is significantly smaller than the city of the 2nd War, and that its speedy recovery is due to its strategic importance.

 

Also, gang culture in Helsreach is likely to be in its infancy (58 years ain't that long) and so most citizens will not have held a gun before.

 

Also, this is the Imperium-if there is one institution that is likely to say: 'Well, lightning has struck the same place twice, but it won't strike it three times, despite reliable evidence to the contrary,' its the Imperium of Man.

 

Argument over.

[Brother Hadafix]

I can't believe what some people are calling "errors" in Helsreach. Something are rules not fitting the fluff, as happens often. For those that decry the use of Sergeants, please turn to page 8 of your codex, its Veteran Sergeants that the BT do not have as these are folded into the SB or are chosen to start the road to become Chaplains. The latter is something that the book is a bit squiffy on, but so is the codex.

 

I am fairly certain that a couple of burly dockworkers could haul away a dead space marine, think of what they do all day, or go visit a dock.

 

All in all it was a very well written book, imho, that got the nature of the Black Templars right if some of the other parts are debatable.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

It is a good book, so much so that I finished it in less than 24 hours... Something I'm hardpressed to do these days with anything other than a short story.

 

On a point about Hives - despite them already being cleared up (pun not intended) - they don't need to go up/down; I can picture London as a Hive - although an actual hive is probably safer ;)

[Gunslinger87]

Just to reiterate what I said earlier. To the author who actually took his time to read the opinions of his readers: don't let this nitpicking bother you. Even though I am new to these boards, I know your blog and admire both your books and your sense of humour. Keep up the great work.

 

PS Thank you to the board moderators for clearing this up for me and explaining how things work (invisible post vs deleted). I appreciate it and apologize for the previous comment. All I wanted to do was back up A D-B :-)

[Kurgan the Lurker]

It is a shame that when somebody goes against the general sentiment, their post is deleted.

 

Your post was removed (along with several others) for contributing to the general decline of the thread with trolling and flaming. I believe the BT mods are in fact PMing those involved at this time as to why said posts are gone.

 

People are welcome to have opposing positions but when people begin to turn it into a tit for tat with personal shots thrown in, we will step in and do what is necessary to salvage the thread.

 

There are rules for this forum and you are expected to follow them.

[Marshal Hadrarius]

really enjoyed this book and thought that ADB portrayed not only the templars but marines as a whole extreamly well. The only thing i didnt understand was Grim's insistence that he was going to di and his general attitude that he was being punished for something?

 

I understand that he thought himself unworthy of his position but i also understand why he would have wanted to be fighting with his Chapter Master in the space battles but why was he soooo pissed off at being the ground?

 

1 aspect i particuly enjoyed about this novel was the way that the Templars supported the defenders not as sqds but as individuals sent to bolster weak areas or sent out where fightest was going to be thickest, this really enscapulated the way that the army can if choose to fight due to thier unique organisational structure. To imagine any other chapter written as fighting this way would look out of place whomever they might be. In fact the only "sqd"to really see are Grims command Sqd and the sallies! The recent sons of dorn books had units splitting up and operating independently which felt unusual and wrong to me (although the situation warrented it) but the Templars suit that style to the ground.

 

All in all great jo ADB, thanks! now more of the same please ;)

[Vangarde23]

Well the thing is Grimaldus was searching for a worthy death, along the lines of what happened with the Shadow (Dark?) Wolves that he reminisces fighting to the end with. Grimaldus didn't believe this hive was worth dying over, there would be no glory in holding helsreach while the rest of his brothers fought on the offensive against the ork fleet. The black templar mentality favors glory over anything else. (the leader of the sisters even pointed this out when she confronted grimaldus about his presence here at the Basilica. How the templars and salamanders, both astartes, fought for different reasons. One for the people of the Imperium, and one for the glory of the Emperor)

 

I think its logical Grimaldus reacted negatively for being assigned to die in helsreach when he could instead be dying assaulting the ork ships instead. "Die well" is a strong mentality to the templars.

[Black Bear]

Having just finished the book last night I can honestly say I am pleased. Finally the disgusting taste of the first two BT books have been wiped away. Was the book perfect? No, but neither was it flawed.

 

I would just like to think AD-B for joining us and I hope he will not be dissuaded from future threads and discussions. He has given his reasoning for the choices he made, and to keep harping on about the same thing over and over becomes a bit tiring. I have never read his work before, but now have reason to pick up his other works, and this is from someone who despises the pulp that is most BL productions.

 

Now for the book. I think--yes this is MY opinion--that he did a wonderful job of displaying our chapter. I switched to 40K from other systems when the Codex:Armageddon came out. I have been a loyal crusader since then and find nothing wrong with our portrayal. I feel as if many are confusing our table-top rules with the fluff of our most excellent chapter. By the Emperor's black bones we can't bring whirlwinds to the gamestore, but according to our fluff we have plenty of them in our crusades (inside back cover of C:BT). If I had read "and their rightous zeal carried them into the enemy I would have laughed and tossed the book in with the other pulp ;) I have from the BL. We see the rightous zeal in the way the Templars persecute their foes, going forward to bring them to grips. If you could not find the rightous zeal, maybe the fault lies with you and not the author. I imagine you will retort with it is the author's job to make sure we find it, and I concede that point to you; however I believe most others have found it.

 

As someone said before me--yes I am being hypocritical--I think too many people brought their interpretation of things into reading the book. Do not assume anything when reading a book unless you have hard evidence to back you up. Other BL books are not hard evidence. Unlike Helsreach most seem to have had no research at all done.

 

Now time for my ;) ing. The one thing that got me

was the timing of one key piece of lore to Grimaldus. When he makes his I have made my grave speech at the end I had always felt from reading in the codex that it came earlier than it did in the book. In the book it seemed it seemed almost a personal rant as there were not that many defenders left alive when he said it, and they really couldn't run. In the codex he said and stopped the masses of defenders from running away from the front lines. If Mr. AD-B would please respond as to why this was chosen the be placed when it was I would be most grateful.

Other than that I thoroughly enjoyed the book.

 

My favorite part was

after Grimaldus had visited the mechanicus base and then met with the old Crone on the titan and told her the way it was and the way it was going to be. I loved it.

 

 

So all in all I have to give the book 2 thumbs up. It is as good as Dan Abnett's work, and as such makes him one of the few BL author's worth reading.

[Brother Richard]

I was very pleased with the book...though I was under the impression that the 'Battle' series would be geared as playable for 40k games or apoc at least..and I find the maps severly lacking in support of that effort.

 

Back to the book I would like to take the opportunity to set aside my blade for a moment and tell you that this book reached me on a very deep and personal level. I have never felt closer to a character of any book or story than that of Grimaldus. I have owned the model for years and could have cared less about the mediocre background paragraphs I was able to glean from the first mentions of this hero. I never even took his servitors out of the box because I 'didn't get it' when they were dragging around chunks of some old church..now, well thats a different story.

 

Let me begin with a touch of background, I have retired after twenty three years in the military. Most of my time was spent in the combat arms...light infantry and cavalry. About midway through my career, I earned the rank of officer and lead men in combat. But it never felt right, yes I had taken all the necessary steps to become a leader, yes I was better than most at doing the job, but I never felt it. Towards the end of my career, I felt a calling to guide souls instead of soldiers and found the task to my liking as I worked my way to becoming a chaplain. I was then notified that after four grueling years of divinity training that I was not qualified to be an officer and resigned my commission to attend an 'accredited' school. The last few years of my militiary career found me back among the soldiers as a sergeant. I performed the duty with honor and retired without ceremony three years later when paperwork finally made its way through the system. Though I am now ordained, I am a soldier without troops, and a chaplain without a church. Past my prime and beyond the ability to reenlist. My dreams and goals of serving never fulfilled.

 

The personality of this character have brought this to the forefront once again, and so I live vicariously through the line written and complete understand this hero. Thank you to the author...an inspiring peice of work. I shall pull my revered chaplain from the ash...paint up his servitors and play him with the fire embued through this art.

 

Thank you brothers for listening.

[Ashe Darke]

...and could have cared less about...

So you cared to some extent? Hasn't this phrase always been 'couldn't have cared less' implying that you're at your not caring maximum capacity, you are at 0% caring etc, which is what I believe you wanted to say? Sorry that has always bugged me.

 

Either way I was perturbed at first when you said you connected with the character as Aaron basically wrote him as autistic. But it was a good story, I couldn't related to him at all, him being very cold and all. I wondered if anyone could relate him and yeah I can see how someone could. And you are right it does paint Grimaldus in a different and more appealing light, maybe this will be represented when the next codex rolls around.

[Chaplain ChonkE]

Do you think every major Crusade has a Master of the Forge? I would like to think so! What do you think?

 

Do you think Sergeants should exist for CommSquads only or should we be seeing them in Crusader Squads as well next Codex?

 

Is the 'Eternal Crusader' a Battle Barge on super-steroids or some other non-standard design?

 

What did you think of the Emperor's Champion, Bayard? I thought it was cool when Priamus called him "liege" and he had nifty armor. He also seemed to be more like the "most able" warrior type than some nutter Marine who had a vision of the Emperor.

 

Mandates of the Eternal Crusade: We know crushing Heresy wherever the E.C. goes is one of the Mandates of the E.C. What other mandates do you think there are? I doubt promoting Galactic Goodwill between species is one of them!

 

How do you guys think Grimmy would feel about serving with Helbrecht after being sent down to make his name and destiny or die trying? Do you think he would understand the High Marshal's reasons for sending him down to Armageddon's surface right away and serve willingly or just as his station calls?

[old git]

I'm not a Templar player (Pups for me), but I read the book as I like the 40k background in all its forms. My take on it is that perhaps Helbrecht saw in Grimaldus what Grimaldus couldn't see in himself and so sent him to a "make or break" situation, sure in the knowledge that it would make, not break him. It simply took the pressure of the siege and the loyalty of his brothers to make him dig deep enough to find what Helbrecht knew was there. Such is the stuff chapter masters are made.

[Galadren]

Finished it yesterday. My comments:

 

I want more. Like a dog getting a piece of steak, one bite isn't enough. I want an entire Templars series written by A D-B now. I absolutely loved the way he portrayed Templars and all of the Knightly references. I also really hope he has a hand in writing the fluff in our codex.

 

My one nitpick was about the references to the first Armageddon War against the daemons. I totally, 100% admit I could be wrong, but I thought the first war was kept a secret from the general public and even the IG because of the daemonic involvement.