Helsreach Novel Discussion

[Tybrus]

How do you guys think Grimmy would feel about serving with Helbrecht after being sent down to make his name and destiny or die trying? Do you think he would understand the High Marshal's reasons for sending him down to Armageddon's surface right away and serve willingly or just as his station calls?

 

He will serve as a Knight of the Black Templars with Honor, and Duty. He will carry out his lords orders, with out question. Those who have never seen war never understand how often "orders" put you in harms way. Death is a part of war, and all of the Black Templars knew that. "FIRE YOU FOOLS HE IS DYING FOR US!" (One of the best lines in the book). You must remember that Grimmy as you call him (Love to see you call him that to his face see A B D's post in other tread) was never mad, angry, or even cared really he had been sent to his death, as a warrior he was always ready for that order. He was Mad because he felt his Death servered no greater purpose for his chapter or the Imperiam. It took him time to understand why he was fighting. "MY GOD, THE IMPERIUM WAS BORN IN TIMES LIKE THESE!" (Another one of A B D's Best lines).

 

A B D is hands down the best writer BL has, I just wish he had done Sons of Dorn as well...

[Drac0]

My one nitpick was about the references to the first Armageddon War against the daemons. I totally, 100% admit I could be wrong, but I thought the first war was kept a secret from the general public and even the IG because of the daemonic involvement.

 

I'd say it would have been kinda hard to hide a major invasion in a world such as Armageddon. Obviously they would try to conceal the demonic presence, but still it would be hard given the amount of forces/population massed in Armageddon's 1st war. Tales would still pass down from generation to generation.

 

And in my opinion, by now many chapters (if not all) are aware of the existence of daemons.

[Galadren]

Well...

 

Although they had won, the victorious Armageddon soldiers were doomed from the start. They had gained knowledge of the existence of Chaos, and been exposed to its corruption. The Inquisition had all of the people who fought on the planet, except for the Space Marines, sterilized and placed in work camps, with their world being re-colonized by people from other regions of space with no knowledge of the war. Logan Grimnar battled long and hard to prevent this, but he failed and has never forgiven the Imperium for doing what Chaos had failed to. He saw it as betraying the people who had honorably fought for their homes and for the Imperium.

 

Cite: White Dwarf 151. The Chaos Wars: The First Battle for Armageddon, by Jervis Johnson

 

It's also mentioned in Codex: Chaos Space Marines 2nd and 3rd editions. Now, I'm not sure if that was retconned or not, but that's why I'm questioning if every Tom, Dick, and Harry on Armageddon would know about the First war.

 

Space Marine chapters are a completely different story. They're allowed to know of such things because they must fight it. The general population is largely kept ignorant of Chaos, though.

[Imperialis_Dominatus]

My favourite part so far must have been the scene

in the Cathedral of Sanctuary, as the Templars see Dorn's statue.

The following line was also rather epic:

"...where Astarters of lesser chapters wear the Emperor's Aquila. We do not wear His symbol. We are His symbol."

 

Though on the very cover of the Black Templars Codex... :P

 

It is an awesome line though.

 

Does the Forgemaster die when he fires Oberon? The words used indicate he did, but its not quite clear. Also, did Domoska die at the end?

 

Impression I got was that

the Forgemaster does die, probably, when the Mechanicus forces retrieve the Oberon. And from the reaction to the question of whether or not he found her, yeah, I'd assume Domoska died.

 

 

walls that are paper thin.

 

Not sure where you got the idea that the walls were paper-thin. Inadequate in the face of dozens of Gargants, perhaps, but what isn't in the face of such unholy xenos might?

 

But I'll do a deleted scene for you, dude:

 

Grimaldus stalked into the mayor's office, and was all like 'Seriously?'

 

At his side, Andrej talked like this Russian guy who the author totally knew. He had a hellgun. It was rad.

 

'Hola, G-dawg,' said the Imperial mayor.

 

Grimaldus straight-up killed the guy. And when the dude was dead, he said 'Don't call me G-dawg. I hate that. Anyway, your city is as well-defended as one could reasonably expect, and we'll be fine unless it's the biggest ork invasion in the history of the subsector. Ha! That's not likely, right? We'll be screwed if it is. Anyway, good job, man. Sorry for being so hard on you, there. '

 

The corpse didn't answer.

 

'I am thinking we should summon a medic, yes?' said Andrej. 'Yes, that would be prudent.'

 

'Shut up,' said Grimaldus. 'I hope you don't survive the novel.'

 

Love it.

 

 

2moro

 

I think you should stop that. The rest of your post has been addressed but I nearly blew a capillary.

 

On the dragging power armor note, power armor is made of a ceramic and titanium alloy I believe? I know ceramics aren't that heavy in comparison to say iron, and I can't imagine the titanium used would burden it much more. I can see 2 fairly fit humans dragging a space marine along. He would be pretty heavy, but its not unbelieveable.

 

I've always been under the impression that a Marine weighs as much as a car, with no wheels to aid you in dragging him if he's prone. Thus SQUAD BROKEN when facing stairs. :P Or maybe they have suspensors in those massive leg-greaves.

 

as an amusing aside to break the tension a bolter actually has a shorter range than a 1815 musket.

 

marine is 7 foot tall, represented by 1.5 inches of plastic. bolter fires 24 inches single shot or 112 feet. a musket shot 192 feet.

 

old thing worked out waaaay back in the day from somewhere but always made me lol when i got too involved in one of these discussions :P

 

Never has the discrepancy between the rules and the fluff been so very exemplified. Of course a bolter has more range than a musket. It's the pinnacle of grunt weapons tech from tens of thousands of years of warfare by the glorious race of Man. It's just that if everyone had accurate weapons ranges on the tabletop, we'd never get to use our choppy stuff.

 

We have abled bodied males that never held a lasgun before? You fanbois are welcome to explain your way out of this one.

 

Maybe because the production offered by the docks of Helsreach (you know, promethium, fuel, the lifeblood of His Glorious Hosts) was so monumentally important to the Imperium that its Administratum never saw fit to let some of the dock workers take a shift off to crack a few shots off at the range?

[Locmac]

Just finished the novel and I love it but it did leave me with a rather minor fluff question someone can hopefully answer; when they are talking about how the Sallies defending instead of attacking they were sickened and all, but isn't an IF thing defending? How would Templars feel when the Sons of Dorn are sitting there letting the orks run? Or is a Son of Dorn always good with other sons? (ignoring the blood drinkers)

[Chaplain ChonkE]

I dunno Tybrus, there are several instances in the novel where Grimaldus curses Helbrecht for the duties given to him. In one of these scenes he even goes so far as to say he would never forgive Helbrecht for sending him to this duty. I think he would forgive the High Marshal.

 

As far as Helbrecht sending Grimmy down before he was "ready", it is in the scene with Jurisian and Bayard talking about how they feel Grimmy isnt ready for the mantle of Reclusiarch. Helbrecht says something to the effect that he is going to succeed in his position or die on the surface of Armageddon.

[Marmande]

Well ADB I enjoyed Helsreach and I enjoyed Cadian Blood and Soul Hunter, so just keep doing what you're doing and I'm sure we'll all be very happy about it. :P

[saadeath]

Is there any thought that this will be a limited edition release? I seem to be busy lately and haven't had time to go get a copy! I really want to though and hope i wont miss out if its a limited release.

[Ashe Darke]

Is there any thought that this will be a limited edition release? I seem to be busy lately and haven't had time to go get a copy! I really want to though and hope i wont miss out if its a limited release.

I'm sure 5 years down the line it might not be available. I had to get Lord of Night from somewhere other than the GW or BL site because it was either taken down or out of stock, so you have a while yet.

[Tybrus]

Just finished the novel and I love it but it did leave me with a rather minor fluff question someone can hopefully answer; when they are talking about how the Sallies defending instead of attacking they were sickened and all, but isn't an IF thing defending? How would Templars feel when the Sons of Dorn are sitting there letting the orks run? Or is a Son of Dorn always good with other sons? (ignoring the blood drinkers)

 

 

I think your missing the point here. It was not that the sallies were taking a defensive stance, its that they took such a stance to save HUMANS! More to the point non-combat effective humans that were no longer any use to the Imperium. So combat resources were task to defend non-combat assets, while failing to support the combat effective assets in the field. Imperial fists would NEVER do such a thing. They would have supported the combat advance as that was the best tactic to regain the advantage. No Son of Dorn would ever put anything above the mission. If the mission was defend, then defend, if attack attack, but NEVER put Protect the Humans above the needs of the Imperium.

[Knight of Old]

No Son of Dorn would ever put anything above the mission. If the mission was defend, then defend, if attack attack, but NEVER put Protect the Humans above the needs of the Imperium.

I'm not so certain. I believe that it was in Rynn's World mentioned that

Pedro risked the success of the mission to cover refuges. Though he was commended for this humanitarian action by the Chaplain, he was also reminded that mission comes first no matter how hard it is.

 

 

Black Templar can also feel the need to protect or at least ease the pain of the population, after the second purging of Lastrati the Black Templar apothecaries aided the survivors, which resulted in the delay of the other crusade. Though I feel these are an exceptions rather than the rule, it does however show more of a "human" and "knight in shining armour" side of sons of Dorn. I feel it's nothing wrong with this portrayal.

[Brother Richard]

@ Ashe Darke - Thanks for the english lesson.. I did care enough to buy the figure but that was the extent of it.

 

As for understanding Grimaldus - If you tell a human to leave the area, and they don't. They will die. If you have a full on invasion and someone would rather hide in a shelter than fight for their life..they will die. I heard a story once that kind of puts it into context for me.. The Combat Mindset - Are you a wolf, a sheep or a sheepdog?

 

THE WOLF

The wolf is always on the hunt, working with a pack of other wolves to search out its prey. The wolf will always attack with extreme violence of action. The wolf will hit you from one side while his pack hits you from the back.

The wolf feeds on the sheep without mercy.

 

THE SHEEP

The sheep is a kind, gentle creature who can only hurt other sheep by accident. The sheep goes to pasture with little concern for situational awareness. The sheep requires a sheepdog to protect it from predators

 

THE SHEEPDOG

The sheepdog has an important role in life. The sheepdog lives to protect the flock and confront the wolf even at the risk of his losing his own life

 

If you have no capacity for violence then you are a healthy productive citizen, a sheep.

 

If you have a capacity for violence and no empathy for your fellow citizens, then you have defined an aggressive sociopath, a wolf.

 

But, what if you have a capacity for violence and a deep love for you fellow citizens? What do you have then?

A sheepdog, a warrior, someone who is walking the hero’s path. Someone who can walk into the heart of darkness and walk out unscathed.

 

The sheep generally do not like the sheepdog. He looks a lot like the wolf. He has fangs and the capacity for violence. The difference though is that the sheepdog must not, cannot and will not ever harm the sheep.

 

Still, the sheepdog disturbs the sheep. He is a constant reminder that there are wolves in the land. They would prefer that he didn’t tell them where to go, or give them traffic tickets, or stand at the ready in our airports in camouflage fatigues holding an M-16. The sheep would much rather have the sheepdog cash in his fangs, spray paint himself white, and go “Baa.” Until the wolf shows up. Then the entire flock tries desperately to hide behind one lonely sheepdog.

 

Here is how the sheep and sheepdog think differently. The sheep pretend the wolf will never come, but the sheepdog lives for that day. It is denial that turns people into sheep. Sheep are psychologically destroyed by combat because their only defense is denial, which is counterproductive and destructive, resulting in fear, helplessness and horror when the wolf shows up. And so the warrior must strive to confront denial in all aspects of life and prepare himself for the day when evil comes. This story was courtesy of LTC (Ret) Dave Grossman.

 

I am a retired wolf. Too old to run with the pack and yet not ready, willing, or able to be a sheep, so I settle for the sheepdog role. I believe that Grimaldus is very much in that mindframe of a wolf guarding the flock from other wolves, while the salamanders where true sheepdogs.

 

: wow that was a lot..thanks for letting me ramble again.

[Marshal Rohr]

Grimaldus is not a soldier, he's a warrior. The Black Templars are not soldiers by any means, its a warrior fraternity. Think about the portrayal in Helsreach and what we know about them in general. The Templars are too ruthless, too focused, and too driven to let considerations other than the mission get in their way.

 

Sure regular marines, especially the Salamanders, are sheep dogs. Or sheep dragons. But Templars are not regular marines, they are knights. And not any Knights, they are the Black Knights, the Knight Templar. Their end justifies their means.

 

'Let justice be done, though the world may perish'.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

That was epically interesting, not just when referencing Grimaldus but other Astartes Chapters as a whole, so cheers Brother Richard.

[Ashe Darke]

@ Brother Richard

 

It was odd that you put that when you did as I recently wrote a piece about people doing exactly that. A bizarre coincidence. Either way it wasn't meant to offend.

 

That was an interesting comparison. I can see the whole wolf being forced into a sheepdog role thing, it makes his rage more understandable.

[Yogi]

@ Brother Richard that biased metaphor pisses me off.

 

Mostly because sheep aren't allowed to defend themselves or the sheepdogs will get all upset about it and attack the sheep (maybe because it makes things too complicated). That metaphor is a tool to keep sheepdogs happy about doing their thankless tasks.

 

My comment is no doubt a common sheep response. :)

 

Maybe that is why I dislike Grimdalus so much.

[GreaterDragon]

I just wanted to add my 2 cents here and to say thanks to ADB,Nick Kyme and any other writers visiting those boards.Be like the salamanders and be not afraid of the flames! :P

 

I recently read the novel and my best friend collects Black Templars while I collect Salamanders.It was highly entertaining to see them fight together as well as seeing their contrasting attitudes.Leaving the battle approach aside,I particularly liked their different outlooks.Grimmy's hatred was felt throughout the book,he was like a chained beast.I actually chuckled at the part where

he sees V'reth and thinks "So calm.So patient."I imagined Grimaldus like he was about to explode from frustration at that point and the Salamanders staying true to their Character.An awesome scene. :D

 

[Beef]

Just finished the novel and I love it but it did leave me with a rather minor fluff question someone can hopefully answer; when they are talking about how the Sallies defending instead of attacking they were sickened and all, but isn't an IF thing defending? How would Templars feel when the Sons of Dorn are sitting there letting the orks run? Or is a Son of Dorn always good with other sons? (ignoring the blood drinkers)

 

 

Well you have to rememeber that the original IF were split into 3 groups (i still dont buy the Sould drinkers being IF)

the most zealous were the BT, so they like to get in close and kill, Yes the IF were great defenders (and attackers) and I am sure the BT if seeing IF defending would have been sickened by that also. They would probably have felt they are DOrns only true followers.

 

Ps I missed out on the celebrities,

[Galadren]

Just finished the novel and I love it but it did leave me with a rather minor fluff question someone can hopefully answer; when they are talking about how the Sallies defending instead of attacking they were sickened and all, but isn't an IF thing defending? How would Templars feel when the Sons of Dorn are sitting there letting the orks run? Or is a Son of Dorn always good with other sons? (ignoring the blood drinkers)

 

 

Well you have to rememeber that the original IF were split into 3 groups (i still dont buy the Sould drinkers being IF)

the most zealous were the BT, so they like to get in close and kill, Yes the IF were great defenders (and attackers) and I am sure the BT if seeing IF defending would have been sickened by that also. They would probably have felt they are DOrns only true followers.

 

Ps I missed out on the celebrities,

 

 

See, I disagree on the 'sickened by IF defending' thing. The Templars, like other chapters, revere their Primarch. Sigsimund is their father and they follow his example, but if they saw Imperial Fists defending they would probably go "Oh, well that's what Imperial Fists do." I think the reason Grimaldus was so pissed off with the Sallies is what they were defending wasn't a strategic asset or anything. The Salamanders sacrificed a military objective (killing the Ork Warlord) to protect a bunch of civilians who were probably going to die anyway.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

Just finished the novel and I love it but it did leave me with a rather minor fluff question someone can hopefully answer; when they are talking about how the Sallies defending instead of attacking they were sickened and all, but isn't an IF thing defending? How would Templars feel when the Sons of Dorn are sitting there letting the orks run? Or is a Son of Dorn always good with other sons? (ignoring the blood drinkers)

 

 

Well you have to rememeber that the original IF were split into 3 groups (i still dont buy the Sould drinkers being IF)

the most zealous were the BT, so they like to get in close and kill, Yes the IF were great defenders (and attackers) and I am sure the BT if seeing IF defending would have been sickened by that also. They would probably have felt they are DOrns only true followers.

 

Ps I missed out on the celebrities,

 

 

See, I disagree on the 'sickened by IF defending' thing. The Templars, like other chapters, revere their Primarch. Sigsimund is their father and they follow his example, but if they saw Imperial Fists defending they would probably go "Oh, well that's what Imperial Fists do." I think the reason Grimaldus was so pissed off with the Sallies is what they were defending wasn't a strategic asset or anything. The Salamanders sacrificed a military objective (killing the Ork Warlord) to protect a bunch of civilians who were probably going to die anyway.

 

Exactly.

 

The IF were siege specialists as a Legion, so you could hardly expect them to not sit back and gradually wear down the foe, either in attack or defence.

 

Killing the warlord would have damaged Ork ops in the areas to a degree, whereas saving the civies only put another strain on already stretched Imperial forces - as seen by the Templars.

 

Remember as well that the Templars were made of the most zealous of the Fists Legion and not just the Company of Sigismund.

[Chaplian Silkor]

Okay, I haven't read much of what's being said here and I'm still reading the book, but I'm gonna give a quick opinion atm.

 

1) The story is told in a different perspective then the other BL books I have read so far and it's really fun to read it like that.

2) The story has given me a different view of the BT, which is always nice. They are real crusaders!

3) At first the attitude of Grimaldus was irritating too me, but along the lines I began to understand why he was feeling the way he did and also understood this wasn't his normal self. From the moment he refound himself I could appreciate him more (he finally started to act as a darn Reclusiarch!)

4) The novel is very exciting and I want to keep on reading (last night it was like 2 am before I stopped)

5)... dunno what to say anymore

 

Good literature so far. I'm happy with it :)

[saadeath]

well im angry, i went out to Borders to buy it, couldn't find it, even searched the computer catalog. Alas they have the book named as "Hellsreach" not Helsreach. so i wasted an hour drive to find out that Borders can get their names right.

[Sven Bloodskull]

Give me helsreach, or i'll give you hell within my reach!!!1

 

Seriously now, i bought the book online, can't wait to read it!

 

Marshal hellmund

[Ulfast]

I bought Helsreach this last saturday and I´m allready finshed with it (and that´s a good sig for me with both work and a little daughter taking a lot of attention from me) and I must say that I think it´s a excellent book! One of the best books that I have read by Black library and in the 40k universe. Brilliant and it gives a strong story with intersting characters. I would guess even people not used to 40k could read it and enjoy it. This is a strong book that I can recommend to many others. I just hope that A D-B don´t stop here and contuie the story of the BT (we sure need more good fluff) and also I got the feeling that perhaps we have not heard the last from Andrej (I sure hope so, he was a very good character that grow under the book, together with Grimaldus)?

 

 

5 strong bolter of 5 ;)

[Th!rdeye]

Is there anything involving an Emperors Champ in Helsreach?

 

 

My fluff i am creating will be based on a Marshal and a badass Chaplain... Looking to pick this up for a good read and inspiration...

 

I want to see how chaplains act, and just other day to day BT rabble...