Skirax Posted May 12, 2010 Share Posted May 12, 2010 Well, he's supposedly: St. George Sun Tzu Julius Ceaser Winston Churchill and a billion other important figures that exist from now till then. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/200736-name-of-the-emperor/page/3/#findComment-2397518 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viray Posted May 12, 2010 Share Posted May 12, 2010 I can see where you are going with this train of thought, but doesn't this contradict what we actually know about the Emperor? I'm pretty sure the last thing he wanted was for humanity to be "a hungry and selfish beast," and he most certainly did not want to be worshipped (if he did, then boy did he mess up with the Word Bearers). One can make the case that the Emperor really was a total jerk who had a ton of hidden, selfish ambitions since we, as the audience, really only have vague fluff and speculation to go on, but does tha course seem more reasonable than the one already present: that the Emperor wanted man to become a creature of dignity and intellect free from any superstitious trappings of the past? Also, I thought that most of the Chaos pantheon did not exist, or, at the very least, were incredibly minor, in 10,000 BC. Didn't it take Khorne until the Middle Ages to actually fully come into being, or is this retconned fluff? About worship... One thing we've never gotten from any of the books is a flat statement from Him to the reader about what He wanted. Ever. Just because He said a thing didn't mean He didn't expect it's opposite to occur. Remember, He sees the future. Didn't your parents ever use reverse psychology upon you? And specifically on the argument of religion, how can a contrary religion argue the validity of another when it flatly denies it is one at all? How can one deny a being that is so obviously godlike when in great humility it denies godhood yet sacrifices His petty human desires for an eternity of service? He ordered a secular Humanity. Ultimately, He'd like mankind to appreciate reason and this order will always give it His endorsement. Perhaps this order will find fertile ground in a distant future or maybe it was simply to debunk faith for faith's sake. Blind faith under His aegis is all fine and good, but if mere mortals are directing it... And this was the Word Bearer object lesson which he created. Anyway, in the human galaxy He created, it was obviously impossible to educate all people of every generation completely and to remove all sin from every individual. Ergo, He made a system for the sheep to graze, fight, rut and bleat in but in general, remain nice ignorant sheep in accordance with their nature. The few blessed with enough gifts and circumstance can continue to advance understanding. But present it to the sheep? Hell no... They're not ready yet. As for the named entities or 'pantheon' within the polar extremes of the Chaos potential and the moment of their 'birth'... the poles were there the whole time. Exactly when the poles accreted enough 'mass' and this mass gained a certain cohesive nature, self awareness and were thusly 'named' is immaterial really. 'Destroy' it and the pole will remain and continue to gather stuff as souls project it. Part of His mission was to create a pole of order through Him. In this regard, one can suggest His attempt at the shallow term of Godhood. And why jealousy was so easy a goad for Horus... or any man. (The great object lesson.) Right, but, like I said prior, which scenario has more evidence supporting it? It would be an incredibly troublesome task for a writer to be able to properly convey what the Emperor wanted exactly since the written word, though versatile, cannot compete with the near infinite number of nuances of the human mind, let alone the fictional and superhuman mind of the Emperor. As a character purposefully enshrouded in mystique, there is no way any writer, especially one working for Gamesworkshop, will be able to give the reader a satisfactory perspective in regards to the Emperor's will. As such, it is far more reasonable to assume that the current fluff of the Emperor's disdain towards religion is what he actually wanted when one takes into the account the mediocrity of the Gamesworkshop's writing staff and the difficultly of properly conveying, so as to remove any possibility of doubt, the inner most thoughts of a fictional, supernatural being intentionally obscured for background purposes. As for that last bit, let's disregard the possibility that the Emperor did not want to be worshipped and go with the view that he was using a rather convoluted plan of reverse psychology. If it is indeed true, it can also still be true if the Emperor had been born during a more reasonable date. Waiting 10,000 years before attempting to attain godhood still screams of stupidity on his part since humans would have likely been far more accepting of him when they were still bound on Earth and relatively small in terms of population. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/200736-name-of-the-emperor/page/3/#findComment-2397875 Share on other sites More sharing options...
shatter Posted May 13, 2010 Share Posted May 13, 2010 Every writer writes canon from the perspective that the canon itself has already been thoroughly tampered with by efforts of purity. Every story can therefore be said to have been tainted by the potential for Orwellian newspeak by a system of individuals even when it appears impossible or unintended. If He'd revealed himself and stated what He was, He'd have been an obvious target far sooner and vulnerable to xenos mankind could not hope to defend against. He needed mankind to stand against the galaxy, not just the warp. If He stood up too soon, He'd be 'the castle' I mentioned earlier. And castles don't travel and do difficult works in secret very well. As He espoused secular systems and beliefs, one can simply argue to worship Him is totally rational as He is provable as a god by virtue of his selfless guidance for eons and awesome personal power when compared to historical individuals who still seemed totally mortal. That He denies a desire to see it done only underlines His divinity in the heart of the common man and separates Him from any agents of Chaos attempting to attain similar worship of mankind. *edited for Imperial Truth :) He doesn't have a name because that would infer pride and ego beyond service. Instead He has a label, title or pronoun. From a marketing point of view, no name means His ethnicity is unprovable and can therefore appeal to any man. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/200736-name-of-the-emperor/page/3/#findComment-2398243 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clewz Posted May 13, 2010 Share Posted May 13, 2010 For some reason I keep thinking of that scene in Julius Caeser where Brutus tells the story of caeser refusing the crown when offered Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/200736-name-of-the-emperor/page/3/#findComment-2398267 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viray Posted May 13, 2010 Share Posted May 13, 2010 Every writer writes canon from the perspective that the canon itself has already been thoroughly tampered with by efforts of purity. Every story can therefore be said to have been tainted by the potential for Orwellian newspeak by a system of individuals even when it appears impossible or unintended. If He'd revealed himself and stated what He was, He'd have been an obvious target far sooner and vulnerable to xenos mankind could not hope to defend against. He needed mankind to stand against the galaxy, not just the warp. If He stood up too soon, He'd be 'the castle' I mentioned earlier. And castles don't travel and do difficult works in secret very well. As He espoused secular systems and beliefs, one can simply argue to worship Him is totally rational as He is provable as a god by virtue of his selfless guidance for eons and awesome personal power when compared to historical individuals who still seemed totally mortal. That He denies a desire to see it done only underlines His divinity in the heart of the common man and separates Him from any agents of Chaos attempting to attain similar worship of mankind. *edited for Imperial Truth :D He doesn't have a name because that would infer pride and ego beyond service. Instead He has a label, title or pronoun. From a marketing point of view, no name means His ethnicity is unprovable and can therefore appeal to any man. Exactly. As such, while you can indeed infer that the Emperor had ulterior motives, it seems more far-fetched than merely taking the facts given at face value. Your logic is sound, there is not doubt, but Gamesworkshop fluff is not known for its concrete reasoning; Gamesworkshop fluff is known for using the rule of cool and pop culture references. In short, while your argument is valid, as in it could be true if the premises are true, its soundness is debatable (Are your premises true?). One little bit that bothers me: it does not follow that people would come to the conclusion to worship the Emperor if the Emperor fully endorsed a secular belief system. It does not matter that the Emperor and his might are tangible things, when the man himself, not to mention his Angels of Death (barring the Word Bearers), support the belief that he is mortal and nothing more, the only way anyone would come to worship him is through misguided devotion, not the Emperor's subtle manipulation. The fact that the Lectio Divinatus (or something like that) was shunned, not to mentioned often expunged, as a belief system by the Emperor's forces supports this. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/200736-name-of-the-emperor/page/3/#findComment-2398285 Share on other sites More sharing options...
shatter Posted May 13, 2010 Share Posted May 13, 2010 For some reason I keep thinking of that scene in Julius Caeser where Brutus tells the story of caeser refusing the crown when offered It's not exactly an unusual idea and it's consequences are psychologically powerful. After the fact, they have to overcome their own choice of giving him the crown before they can overcome him. GW has made it somewhat clear that such instances of history were Him practicing his technique or laying the groundwork for how man perceives it's own history. The Life of Brian while extraordinarily blasphemous to the number one religion on the planet does contain the extreme example of: "I'm not The Messiah! Go Away!" "ONLY THE TRUE MESSIAH WOULD DENY HIS OWN DIVINITY!" Or something like that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/200736-name-of-the-emperor/page/3/#findComment-2398401 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walter Payton Posted May 13, 2010 Share Posted May 13, 2010 For some reason I keep thinking of that scene in Julius Caeser where Brutus tells the story of caeser refusing the crown when offered It's not exactly an unusual idea and it's consequences are psychologically powerful. After the fact, they have to overcome their own choice of giving him the crown before they can overcome him. GW has made it somewhat clear that such instances of history were Him practicing his technique or laying the groundwork for how man perceives it's own history. The Life of Brian while extraordinarily blasphemous to the number one religion on the planet does contain the extreme example of: "I'm not The Messiah! Go Away!" "ONLY THE TRUE MESSIAH WOULD DENY HIS OWN DIVINITY!" Or something like that. You do realise, don't you, that Brian and Jesus Christ are completely different characters? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/200736-name-of-the-emperor/page/3/#findComment-2398436 Share on other sites More sharing options...
shatter Posted May 14, 2010 Share Posted May 14, 2010 I thought we didn't talk about that here... Big nose! edited to present awareness. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/200736-name-of-the-emperor/page/3/#findComment-2399463 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imperialis_Dominatus Posted May 14, 2010 Share Posted May 14, 2010 My post delves ever so slightly into matters of religion and politics and history. I think in light of the fact that it's all based on the Emperor's actions pertaining to it the post is close enough to the subject matter and far enough from objectionable material to be acceptable. At that thing with Jesus makes no sense, because there ist no "God" in Warhammer 40k. The "old ones" created everything I think. Existence of the God of Abraham is not relevant in this case. The Emperor being Jesus (or engineering a Jesus-figure or multiple Jesus-figures) would represent His attempt to unite Humanity through a religion based on the belief in an omnibenevolent, omniscient, omnipotent deity, not the actual existence of such. I know putting Jesus and Hitler in one list is kinda bad.... but it was something like that. Hitler (or other infamous historical figures) could represent another method by which the Emperor attempted to unite Humanity- through the act of committing (or engineering an individual who would commit, remember that sources state He stayed in the shadows through most of history) a great evil, he could perhaps unite Mankind in the face of its own darkness. Indeed, now that I think on it, engineering the rise and bloody reign of such figures could very well be part of some overarching plan. He doesn't have to be the figures themselves (he doesn't even have to be Jesus, as noted above). He just has to make it so some other dude becomes that figure, performing its part in His plan. Actually doesnt it say he walked among humans for 40 thousand years as far as his age goe he would have to have been born roughly 10,000 BC for that to be true as he has sat for 10 thousand years. 8000 b.c. IIRC. Is it not a general rule that anything written by the Black Library, especially by Graham Mcneil, should not be taken as canon? No, I don't think it is. Conflicting quotes about what is canon and what is ignored make a mess of any guess. Personally, I find it hard to swallow that the Emperor would not have united humanity much, much sooner if he truly had been around all those years. Personally, it sounds more like fun Imperial propoganda or some such, otherwise the forces of Chaos would not be entirely unjustified in thinking the Emperor an incompetent moron... :( It certainly isn't Imperial propoganda; the few who have any inkling of such knowledge keep it very secret and purge the fekomatter out of anyone who tries to get it out in public (last few pages of the 3rd edition rulebook). And sure, it would have been easy to unite Mankind by basically becoming a god-figure over all of them, but I get the idea that the Great Crusade was His absolute last resort (and perhaps the nebulous chance of post-Heresy apotheosis His last resort beyond that). What He tried to do was subtly get Humanity to unite itself, on its own strength, with just a little help from Him. Which anyone in any age of history could plainly see is... somewhat difficult. If anything He should be commended for His patience with us. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/200736-name-of-the-emperor/page/3/#findComment-2399639 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walter Payton Posted May 14, 2010 Share Posted May 14, 2010 I thought we didn't talk about that here... Big nose! edited to present awareness. Oi! I'll do you for that! :( Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/200736-name-of-the-emperor/page/3/#findComment-2399652 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonny Roxtar Posted May 14, 2010 Share Posted May 14, 2010 If the Emperor is St George, then Im gonna have to go Chaos for the World Cup. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/200736-name-of-the-emperor/page/3/#findComment-2399657 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walter Payton Posted May 14, 2010 Share Posted May 14, 2010 If the Emperor is St George, then Im gonna have to go Chaos for the World Cup. Anyone but England mate, anyone but England... (*stalks off weeping about what happened to my beloved Hearts of Midlothian) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/200736-name-of-the-emperor/page/3/#findComment-2399661 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted May 14, 2010 Share Posted May 14, 2010 If the Emperor is St George, then Im gonna have to go Chaos for the World Cup. Come to rugby union and support the All Blacks Legion. <_< Come to think of it, does that mean that 23rd April is the official Emperor's Day? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/200736-name-of-the-emperor/page/3/#findComment-2399985 Share on other sites More sharing options...
shatter Posted May 15, 2010 Share Posted May 15, 2010 *chuckle* Suddenly imagined the Emperor giving Horus, Lorgar et al a red card. Off to the sin bin with you! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/200736-name-of-the-emperor/page/3/#findComment-2400554 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamafore Posted May 16, 2010 Share Posted May 16, 2010 As many others have said, my opinion is that before the whole Age of Strife thing, He tried to do the "Man behind the curtain" bit, but when the AoS came around, He went, "Oh sod it, want something done right, do it yourself." My reasoning is this, I can easily see many of histories leaders, heroes, and villians being simply puppets. Puppets that maybe didn't perform to the standards that He needed, or needed to take a fall. Hence several said historical figures meeting untimely, or mysterious ends. Alexander the Great, Genghis Khan, Nepoleon , and Adolf Hitler immediately come to mind. IIRC all of those it is either unknown, or there are questions about how they died. EDIT: If I'm going to be grammatically incorrect about the He, Him bit, I should at least be consistant with it. EDIT2: Nepoleon died long after he was ousted as emperor of France, so his death being deliberate would have served no purpose. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/200736-name-of-the-emperor/page/3/#findComment-2401406 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted May 16, 2010 Share Posted May 16, 2010 *chuckle* Suddenly imagined the Emperor giving Horus, Lorgar et al a red card. Off to the sin bin with you! Come to think of it, daemons being banished back to the warp for a set period of time rather than destroyed outright is much easier to explain when you consider it being similar to being sent to the sin bin for ten minutes. :cuss Is it not a general rule that anything written by the Black Library, especially by Graham Mcneil, should not be taken as canon? No, I don't think it is. Conflicting quotes about what is canon and what is ignored make a mess of any guess. There is no answer to the canon debate, so just keep your wits about you and try to put together a logical & coherent personal canon as far as is possible. That's as much as any of us can do. Back on topic, perhaps the Emperor simply calls himself "Legion" as an in-joke. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/200736-name-of-the-emperor/page/3/#findComment-2402025 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walter Payton Posted May 17, 2010 Share Posted May 17, 2010 Back on topic, perhaps the Emperor simply calls himself "Legion" as an in-joke. Or Palpatine... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/200736-name-of-the-emperor/page/3/#findComment-2402756 Share on other sites More sharing options...
shatter Posted May 17, 2010 Share Posted May 17, 2010 According to The Inquisitor War, He calls Himself We. The whole bifurication thing is pretty interesting. For those that've not read it, (spoilers) the voice from the throne that addresses our hero has split His consciousness(?) up to better navigate (multiple destinies?) and guide His Imperium. What it (the book) doesn't say is the extent of this splitting and how much/many of His consciousness is based in the Immaterium. Or, it could be that the what our hero spoke to was just a psychic program run by the throne and powered by souls when the real He (singular) is elsewhere... in the warp completely or completely dead and dissolute as far as the throne consciousness is concerned. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/200736-name-of-the-emperor/page/3/#findComment-2403195 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Raven Posted July 6, 2010 Share Posted July 6, 2010 In the 3E codex, a third party mentions that Eldrad knows the Emperor's real name. Of course, this could have just been bold conjecture in the face of an inquisitor. Regardless, Eldrad isn't the chatty type. This is further complicated by the fact that he's dead, and isn't likely to tell anyone anytime soon. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/200736-name-of-the-emperor/page/3/#findComment-2454755 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arnil Posted July 6, 2010 Share Posted July 6, 2010 I think the emperor had to spend those years undoing the psychic harm the necrons did on us...remember only the orks escaped the fear of death...but now death is scary but reason has made us able to strive into the darkness and get eaten in horror movies...I blame the emperor! I also bet he wrote part of all great books and helped inventors...gave edisson the right fiber and such...reshapeing humans for the enternal wars he could see ahead of us....also actions speak louder than words, he is a god figure now and humanity is violent and brutal and power hungry...good traits in a galactic empire! We may be falling under our own weight but he did manage to create the longest empire ever! And largest! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/200736-name-of-the-emperor/page/3/#findComment-2454881 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellios Posted July 6, 2010 Share Posted July 6, 2010 In the 3E codex, a third party mentions that Eldrad knows the Emperor's real name. Of course, this could have just been bold conjecture in the face of an inquisitor. Regardless, Eldrad isn't the chatty type. This is further complicated by the fact that he's dead, and isn't likely to tell anyone anytime soon. It is lucky that the Eldar are immortal then... and that 'death' isn't a huge problem when it comes to talking to them... the question is was his soul destroyed by the daemon? or maybe he is flying a super-weapon around space right now! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/200736-name-of-the-emperor/page/3/#findComment-2455028 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady_Mournival Posted July 7, 2010 Share Posted July 7, 2010 Well He signs His name "I" like the inquisitorial I. Ave' Imperator....his name is not of consequence any longer he is the Imperator, the All Father, the Omnisiah, The Outlander, He is not the Omnisiah! that's just an excuse the tech-brains use so they won't get scorched! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/200736-name-of-the-emperor/page/3/#findComment-2456148 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Raven Posted July 9, 2010 Share Posted July 9, 2010 It is lucky that the Eldar are immortal then... and that 'death' isn't a huge problem when it comes to talking to them... the question is was his soul destroyed by the daemon? or maybe he is flying a super-weapon around space right now! He's currently in the Infinity Circuit, and seems to have a much easier time of getting around than any of the other inhabitants. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/200736-name-of-the-emperor/page/3/#findComment-2457763 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purge The Weak Posted July 10, 2010 Share Posted July 10, 2010 Actually back in the day GW made reference that the Emperor was jesus Well, that would still fit in with the storyline that he has been many important Terran figures throughout history. I believe certain story lines have him predating Jesus - and even predating Chaos. His birth is now noted as being the eight millennium BC and in Central Anatolia (though I don't see a source for that on lexicanum). He won't predate chaos as the shamans of the old world commited suicide to stop chaos taking them over and put there life engery into making one being of unlimited power, the emperor of course. The shamans are mentioned in a few places in the Horus Herasy too. Thousand sons novel? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/200736-name-of-the-emperor/page/3/#findComment-2458885 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady_Mournival Posted July 10, 2010 Share Posted July 10, 2010 Actually back in the day GW made reference that the Emperor was jesus Well, that would still fit in with the storyline that he has been many important Terran figures throughout history. I believe certain story lines have him predating Jesus - and even predating Chaos. His birth is now noted as being the eight millennium BC and in Central Anatolia (though I don't see a source for that on lexicanum). He won't predate chaos as the shamans of the old world commited suicide to stop chaos taking them over and put there life engery into making one being of unlimited power, the emperor of course. The shamans are mentioned in a few places in the Horus Herasy too. Thousand sons novel? You are correct brother, it is indeed mentioned in A Thousand Sons. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/200736-name-of-the-emperor/page/3/#findComment-2458928 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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