[Dornian Heresy] Raven Guard - How to represent them?

[Aurelius Rex]

The Dornian Heresy, which has been featured in the new Legio Imprint - the e-zine of the B&C - has shown an alternate timeline where the legions came out a little different to the norm. Click the board banner or the links in my sig for more details. There has been interest expressed in discussing what rules could be applied to field these armies, and so first up, discuss a 'counts-as' ruleset, and then, if needed, go for a set of homebrew house rules.

 

For the full story on the Raven Guard, check the Legio Imprint. The short version, however, goes like this. Corrupted while attempting to rebuild their legion after the Istvaan, the Raven Guard have dedicated their lives and souls to Tzeentch, the God of Change. Flesh follows desire, as bone and armour is moulded into wings and claws. Even before their Fall the legion was able to strike from the darkness, to end the battle before it even began. Now, guided by their powerful sorcerers, they manipulate the fates of whole worlds.

 

The Raven Guard has retained the ability to attack without warning where the enemy is most vulnerable, and a favoured tactic is to strike under the cover of darkness, be it true night or a form of stygian gloom conjured up by their sorcerers. As befits their lightning-fast ambush tactics, the legion favours infantry over heavier vehicles. At the forefront of attacks are always their assault squads, who sweep in on sable wings before rending their victims apart with razor-sharp talons. In their wake come all manner of daemonic creatures spitting balefire and hate, and the grossly mutated spawns that can only be directed, if not controlled, by their sorcerer masters.

 

The youngest, least mutated marines are tasked with providing a strong gun-line to suppress the enemy. These brethren, whose abilities to transform their bodies and armour are yet to fully mature, fight instead with bolters and on occasion with heavier weaponry. An over-reliance on static firepower is rare though, and the role of laying down the heaviest ordnance is most often provided by the monstrous Annihilators. These abominations have willingly given themselves over to daemonic possession to enhance their natural abilities, and are able to transform their bodies and armour into a wide array of exotic weaponry. Be it a mob of Orks or an Imperial Land Raider, there is no target that these living tanks are unable to deal with.

 

Raven Guard covens are led on the battlefield by their greatest warriors, although careful examination has shown that the true leaders are the sorcerers. As direct conduits to Tzeentch, the cabal of sorcerers guide their charges and direct them towards whatever incomprehensible mission they might be intent upon. The number of sorcerers in a coven varies depending upon its size and prestige, and the coven will sometimes split apart or merge with another seemingly on a whim.

 

According to Chief-Librarian Mieuren of the Thousand Sons, the success of a Raven Guard coven can be judged by its composition. Older, more established forces are composed largely of assault troops. Ones that have recently split off from a larger warband, or that have taken heavy losses contain more of the younger bolter armed marines that have yet to fully manifest their abilities to transform. According to Mieuren, covens rarely grow beyond a hundred marines in size – not including the attendant spawns and summoned daemonic entities - as their style of warfare achieves with lightning strikes what others would attempt with a massed assault. The number nine also seems to hold a fascination for them, with units composed of nine members being particularly favoured.

 

Because of the vital role played by the sorcerers to the continued existence of the coven, on only the most critical and sensitive occasions does a senior magus venture onto the battlefield. Usually lesser members of the cabal are sent in their stead, but such is the importance of even these individuals that they are inevitably surrounded by a cadre of brutal killers, summoned daemonic entities and the hideous results of their failed genetic experiments. Outside the cabal, marines are given respect based upon the extent to which they can transform their bodies. The monstrous Annihilators and the raven-winged assault squads held high above their younger bolter-armed brethren. Even the youngest initiates, though, look down in pity upon the amorphous spawn. These unfortunates have proved unequal of Tzeentch’s gifts, and in doing so have paid the price with their sanity.

 

 

To me, Codex: Chaos Space Marines seems to be the logical choice, although if anyone can come up with a viable alternative, then shout out. :)

 

If C:CSM is indeed the way to go, then it is just a matter of going through the codex unit listings and pinpoint the things to characterfully use, and to avoid.

 

Just to throw out some ideas, sorcerers are going to be important, with Raptors, spawns, 'rubricks' would be the protectors of the aspiring sorcerers in the front lines, with 'Obliterators' for the transforming monstrosities and summoned entities being prominent. The basic bolter armed squads would be the newer inductees, providing the gunline.

 

Off the top of my head, Tzeentch marks and icons would be important, avoiding the marks of the other gods.

 

 

OK, that’s an opening salvo of ideas with which to play... It may be one of the more straightforward legions. What do you think?

 

Regards,

Aurelius.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

I agree with all of that, except for the use of Rubrics. Their inclusion would bring the army just a bit too close to a main-universe Thousand Sons army, playwise. They don't particularly fit the theme of an army of ravening, twisted creatures. Simply including standard Chaos Space marines with an icon of tzeentch, and perhaps Khorne Bezerkers representing the marines which are heavily mutated but not quite as severely as the Possessed would probably be better Troops choices, thematically. I know there's an attraction in the unit due to the Sorcerer Sergeant, but I don't think his presence is really enough to justify the unit as a whole. (Personally, I think that once actual fandexes are being created, the inclusion of a Wolfguard-type unit to represent Sorcerer Cabals, and how they might be assigned throughout the army, would be a good idea).

[Arikromus]

Ah, one of the Alternate Chaos Legions.

 

The CSM codex is a given. Rubrics would be a bad idea. Let's take a look at this section from the flavour:

An over-reliance on static firepower is rare though, and the role of laying down the heaviest ordnance is most often provided by the monstrous Annihilators.

With that, I can hardly see the Legion making use of Rubric squads.

 

The only real way to fully portray a Alt-Heresy Raven Guard unit requires an entry created for it.

[Insacrum]

So I already posted this idea on the main topic thread, but I figured I would give it again here with the hope to get some discution going.

 

I know most people are interested in trying to pigeon hole most of the previous chapters into an already existing Chaos or Loyalist chapter rules, but I just don't see the Raven Guard using the same rules as the Tzeentch's Thousad Suns followers.

 

Given the fluff writen in the Dornian Herasy I would like to offer this alternative:

 

The Raven Guard are followers of Tzeentch due to the changes and mutations that are running rampant through the chapter, not because of the heavy use of magic. Becuase of this I want to throw out a very (IMO) radical codex for these chapter. Codex: Tyranids.

 

This will probably take a lot of arguing on my part so here goes.

 

How I see it, the Raven Guard hierarchy is based on how much a marine is able to mutate and upgrade themself. Your basic fire support that Aurelius Rex mentioned would be played by Termiguants. Yes, the stats for the Troops, and the weaponry isn't going to match that of C:SM or C:CSM, but given that Tzeentch is the lord of change, wouldn't it be acceptable fluff that he has also changed the gear used by the RG. Followers of Tzeentch (choas Cultists) could be represented by Genestealers. The Marines who have started the mutation process to having wings could represent the Hormagaunts, while those who have completed wings would be gargoyles. It might be hard find ways to represent some of the other tyranid forces, but it really shouldn't be that hard to factor in the mutation process and some story fluff to represent their presence.

 

Since most people will be wondering about the Sorcerers, these would most easily be represented by Zoanthropes and any other synapse creature. The more powerful the synapse creature (Hive Tyrant and such) the more powerful the Sorcerer. And with the lack of the synapse creature/sorcerer presence, you have the out of control horde as discribed in their DH:IA.

 

As for the more demonic Aspects of chaos, I would use the Hive Tyrant as a sorcerer who has managed to become a Demon or Demon Prince. Your chosen and chaos champions would be represented by Tyranid Warriors or other similar creatures. Occationally you'll have your Marines who didn't manage to mutate correctly, with these you have your monstrous creatures. Lictors, Biovores, Carnofex, and Mawloc to name a few of them. Within the current RG, I see to characters that would easily be represented within the currect C:Tyranid. the Clonelord, and Shrike. The Clonelord I would represent with the Broodlord, and Shrike with Red Terror.

 

I understand that using the Tyranid Codex as the codex for the RG would require a huge endevor to get just write, but I really see it as one of the better ways to represent them.

 

Please feel free to C&C. If everyone thinks that this is the stupidest idea out there, at least I've spoken my peace about it.

 

Thanks!

[Chengar Qordath]

I would personally suggest representing Raven Guard by home-ruling that Possessed Marines count as a troops choice for Raven Guard.

[Lord Draco]

I think this question fits in here, even though this thread is a bit old.

The Dorian Heresy Corax doesn't lead the legion any more does he?

[Aurelius Rex]

No. The implication is that he died trying to take out the guy who turned his legion into mutant freaks (Fabius Bile) and to end as many of the abominations as possible. As they are still wandering the galaxy, it looks like he failed, although at least there has not been any sign of Bile since. :(

[Culebras]

Running with the idea about using the Tyranid Codex, The Ymgarl Genestealers ( an elite option) already have the ability to reshape their bodies, which could at least serve as the basis for a similiar unit.

 

Also, the Trygon's ability to burrow and appear, leaving behind a tunnel for enemies to come out of, could be changed to represent a daemon prince opening a warp gate, which allows more raven guard to pour out of.

 

Finally, the warriors, with the bone-swords mimicking the effect of force weapons, could be used to represent troops. At the very least, the base point costs could be used to extrapolate what a unit of shape changing marines should be able to do.

 

In the other direction, it could be possible to homebrew an entire army list using the Chaos and Tyrannid codexes as a framework. The biggest difficulty is figuring out what does and does not fit in such an army.

 

I would assume you would have

 

A lord or daemon prince for an HQ

 

Elites representing specialized shapechangers. Infiltartors?

 

Troops which would be not much different from regular marines, possibly with demons or cultists

 

Fast Attack assault troops that can grow wings and claws

 

Heavy support units made up of Obliterator style Ravenguard.

 

Ultimately, it looks very basic but not exceptionally sexy. No bikes, no dreadnoughts, no tanks, no vehicles. I, as a rule, feel every army should have some "Fun" units that can do interesting things rather than have an army that consists entirely of stat lines. If they are ravenguard, they should have all sorts of little tricks and nasty suprises hidden up their devious sleeves.

[SyNidus]

I actually thinking that with some work, the BA codex could serve as a basis for a veteran Dornian-RG.

 

As mentioned in the article, older more successful covens tend to have more assault marines.

 

Sanguinary Guard can be used for the more senior assault marines.

 

Have a big mob of Death company to represent weregeld being herded into battle

 

Sanguinary priests act as Sorcerors, boosting the troops around them.

[Aurelius Rex]

Just popping in for a second - have to say that I have been mulling over the idea of using the Tyranid codex, and that it is a really interesting idea! Having looked at the codex, there seems to be a lack of rank and file 'power armour' 3+ saves to represent the basic troops. However, it might be a really characterful way to represent a warband that have lost their sorcerers (see the Assassins report colourpiece) and have begun to devolve into monstrous creatures, which could nicely explain some strange gribblies, both more and less powerful than marines, as well as the rather uncontrollable instinctual behaviours! ^_^

 

Edit: Would you care to expand on this idea, Culebras, detailing what units would and would not fit into a characterful army of this type? :)

 

As to using the Blood Angel codex to represent their flying, fast attack aspect, that sounds like an interesting way to do it. :) Any ideas on how to show the prodigious Tzeentchian nature of their powerful sorcerer leaders?

[Culebras]

Just popping in for a second - have to say that I have been mulling over the idea of using the Tyranid codex, and that it is a really interesting idea! Having looked at the codex, there seems to be a lack of rank and file 'power armour' 3+ saves to represent the basic troops. However, it might be a really characterful way to represent a warband that have lost their sorcerers (see the Assassins report colourpiece) and have begun to devolve into monstrous creatures, which could nicely explain some strange gribblies, both more and less powerful than marines, as well as the rather uncontrollable instinctual behaviours! :)

 

Edit: Would you care to expand on this idea, Culebras, detailing what units would and would not fit into a characterful army of this type? :P

 

As to using the Blood Angel codex to represent their flying, fast attack aspect, that sounds like an interesting way to do it. :) Any ideas on how to show the prodigious Tzeentchian nature of their powerful sorcerer leaders?

 

Yes, the lack of the +3 armor save is a major factor and really cuts into the Tyranid survivability. There are 2 ways to do this. What would be a good character army and what would work well on the tabletop. For the moment, I'm gonna stick to character and fluff and avoid tactics.

 

HQ

 

the Hive tyrant is the big one I think, and the stat line is a good stand in for a demon prince. Straight off, it comes with a bonesword, which works like a force weapon, and its lash whip could represent the prince turning its hands into some kind of lashing tentacle or such. Giving it wings would be very nice and totally in keeping with the Ravenguard concept. On the other hand, you can buy it artificer armor or give it a template weapon that it can fire on top of its other guns. The weapon could represent a flock of demonic birds attacking an opponent. And of course, the Hive Tyrant is Psychic with some nice powers to choose from. :)

 

If its not flying, the "raven guard" demon prince could come with hive guard, which increases its survivability. Think of them as better chaos spawn/bodyguards which can also have force weapons and lash whips. Plus, they go crazy if the "prince" is killed.

 

Tyranid prime is the other option, as it has the +3 save. It can come with alot of the same options as a prince, minus the psychic powers, but it can dual wield force weapons so :P and it can improve the shooting of nearby warriors

 

The other two options are the Parasite of Mortifex, which counts as jump infantry, has a weapon that inflicts instant death with no armor saves on a wound roll of 6, and spawns swarms of Rippers from its victims. The parasite could represent some kind of Raven Guard leader that kills his foes by mutating their innards, and the rippers could represent flocks of wingless hungry ravens. :) in fact, since the Parasite is a Independent character, you could attach it with a swarm of flying rippers to represent even more demon ravens and have it be some sort of Very evil Character. That would just be MEAN

 

Finally you have the tervigon, which I don't really think will fit in the flavor of this army as its whole job is to spawn broods of little guys. Unless you want it to stand in for some bizarre Demonic bird mother/nest creature that creates wave after wave of mini-disposable demons....

 

 

Elites

 

Ymgarl (squidy) genestealers as elite infiltrating Raven guards: Ok, this unit would work brilliantly and fit exactly with the concept. squidy gs get to hide in a terrain piece before battle, then pop out, move, and assault in the same turn. Absolutely terrifying. Plus they have a better armor save then regular gs and they can change their shape, adding +1 to their str, toughness, or attacks.

 

Zoanthrope, think of this as a really powerful sorcerer. It has a +3 invul save and it can throw out Warp lances and warp blasts that fry stuff. I imagine a unit of two or three of these might represent a powerful coven of raven guard unleashing the power of Tzentch on their victims.

 

Doom of Malantai: um, wow. If zoanthropes are sorcerers, I'm not sure what to call this one. This might represent another Raven guard special character who tried to achieve the ultimate form shape/metamorphosis/spell but failed and now exists as a sort of black hole. His hearts were replaced with a living warp tear and now he pulls anything that gets too close into it. I dunno, but its psychic. Could work.

 

Lictors could be used to represent a powerful type of Raven guard that have turned their shape changing ability into camouflage to better close with an enemy. Lictors have hit and run, stealth, and they can deploy in units of up to three in any terrain piece. The down side is they have weak armor saves, which might represent them being unstable after having been out on their own for so long.

 

Deathleaper: basically a lonely but extremely more powerful lictor.

 

Venomthrope and hive guard. These guys don't really fit in the army concept, but if you tried hard enough they might work. both are valuable to a normal Tyranid army. Venomthrope could be some strange demon/hybrid creature that cloaks nearby units in a field of darkness before strangling victims with garotes made of its own muscles. The hive guard could be pseudo-spawn who have had their brains taken over by their daemon guns and now only live to fire them into the enemy.

 

Do not take the pyrovore, don't even look at it. just walk away. Trust me

 

Troops

 

I would go with Warriors and Genestealers and avoid Termagaunts, hormagaunts, and rippers. The latter three don't really work as marines but they could stand in for hordes of summoned demons.

 

Warriors are very close to marines, but are much more expensive and aren't as durable. chaos spawn might work. In the game they are psykers, but don't have any actual psychic powers. :( On the other hand, they can wield force weapons so there is that.

 

Genestealers are more raven guard ish. They can infiltrate, outflank, and their speed and rending claws make them feel very much like Mutated marines leaping and tearing into victims. The bad thing is they have reeeeaaaaalllly bad armor saves. Possible good stand in for marines.

 

Fast attack

 

Harpy: this monstrous creature doesn't get played alot, but its not bad, its just not fantastic. It flies, it lays down lots of blast templates, and it has a scream that deafens its victims. Once again, I don't see this as a marine or marine stand in, but it could work as some kind of bird demon summoned to aid the ravenguard.

 

Tyranid Shrikes: basically flying warriors. They have worse armor saves, making them on par with Genestealers, but they are faster. I could totally see these as a small five man unit of Raven guard flying across the battle field ready to tear into some poor sap. Combine this with the parasite character or the demon prince/flying tyrant HQ and you might have something scary to look at.

 

Gargoyles: Furies. These guys would work in place of chaos furies. Hell you could even use the same model.

 

Sky-slasher: flying rippers, could stand in for flocks of demon ravens

 

Raveners are basically shrikes, but instead of jump infantry, they can deep strike and then charge 12 inches the following turn. They are beasts, so maybe they represent another Type of Raven guard with feet designed to propel them swiftly across the ground.

 

Spore mines: I dunno, wandering demon eggs of doom that roll across the battle field, exploding if they get to close to an enemy?

 

Heavy Support

 

Tyrannofex/Trygon/Mawloc/Carnifex/old one eye: either greater demons, demon princes, or some really pissed off spawn.

 

Biovore: doesn't really fit with the image, unless you think the Raven guard would use some kind of demon/mutant that lobs exploding doom eggs at their opponents.

 

Ok, wow thats alot. Hopefully that helps. If I was making a pure fluff Army, I would probably use the genestealers and Gaunts as basic troops, a hive tyrant as a demon prince. And then load up on Squidy genestealers and shrikes to represent my infiltrating and flying Raven Guard, and then fill in the edges with Zoanthorpes as covens, and maybe a Monstrous creature as some kind of Summoned greater demon.

 

Hope that helps

[Aurelius Rex]

Thanks for that assessment, Culebras. :D Apologies for the absence as my pc is circling the drain... so for the forseeable future I will have little to no net access or word processing ability. It's like the dark ages - I have to use my pen and everything!

 

Printed off the ideas for a good mull, though. They look really good.

 

Regards,

Aurelius.