Jarl Bloodwolf Posted May 24, 2010 Author Share Posted May 24, 2010 Well, if you're going to base your DIY chapter off the BA's I reallly hope you're going to take the time to do some proper reserch, not just going on the often wrong messages on the interweb... You still havent come up with what (to me) seems like a justifiable reason for an 'unknown' survivor to exist, and to fall to chaos because of the death of Sanguinius. Have you actually read how the Black Rage took time to appear after Sang died - there was no massive psychic shockwave that hit every BA. Not until/unless they get to writing the last HH book where the fight happens. And every loyalist that teleported onto that ship was after 1 thing and 1 thing only - Horus on the command deck - so no mysterious sabotage mission to the enginarium for your survivor. It was either Horus dead/Imperium wins, or the Emperor, Dorn, Sang and every loyaist dead and Chaos winning. No point in blowing up the enemy ship if you've just lost the Emperor after all. Would the love of his primarch coupled with the rage at his death and the twisted (and wrong) drive to gain vengance on those who caused it not be enough? I mean imagine you were Abigor in the situation I created. You have a deep love for your primarch as he is essentially your father, then he is killed and the anguish of knowing he was dead is overwelming to the point were your sanity is almost broken. And then in your moment of deepest greif a voice offers you vengance on those who cuased your lords death, it twists your mind and your perspective so that instead of blaming Horus who actually killed Sanguinious and turned against the Imperium you blame the Emperor for not listening to Magnus' warnings and preventing the entire situation in the first place. I cant see any better reason for a marine to turn than that, I mean yeah he was misguided, manipulated and tricked but thats the way chaos is. They find your weekness and use it against you. In my story Abigors weekness was actually his love for his primarch. Now as for my research I do take it seriously and plan to do alot of it but sadly at this point I do not own the BA codex and do not have access to its fluff though I have read it. As far as the Black Rage aspect I wasent really aiming for him to have fallen to the BR but instead was on the verge of normal insanity, not BR insanity. And I thought I read somewhere that when Sanguinious died every Blood Angel felt it? I may be mistaken though, and as for the sabotage mission I was just throwing out an idea. More likely I will go with the cannon created in the GW created HH game that says that upon teleporting on to Horus' flagship the entire party was scattered by foul sorceries. This is why Abigor was seperated from his bretheran during the battle. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/202166-black-ragered-thirst-and-sanguinary-guard/page/3/#findComment-2410967 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Requiem of the Wolf Posted May 24, 2010 Share Posted May 24, 2010 Well, if you're going to base your DIY chapter off the BA's I reallly hope you're going to take the time to do some proper reserch, not just going on the often wrong messages on the interweb... You still havent come up with what (to me) seems like a justifiable reason for an 'unknown' survivor to exist, and to fall to chaos because of the death of Sanguinius. Have you actually read how the Black Rage took time to appear after Sang died - there was no massive psychic shockwave that hit every BA. Not until/unless they get to writing the last HH book where the fight happens. And every loyalist that teleported onto that ship was after 1 thing and 1 thing only - Horus on the command deck - so no mysterious sabotage mission to the enginarium for your survivor. It was either Horus dead/Imperium wins, or the Emperor, Dorn, Sang and every loyaist dead and Chaos winning. No point in blowing up the enemy ship if you've just lost the Emperor after all. I am fairly sure that the biggest reason he came here was to get peoples viewpoints,to take advantage of the greater and more specialized knowledge of the BA players here as a good starting point. The fact you point out about the sabotage mission not being likely at all is a perfect example of the knowledge he was looking for. So right off the bat,something would have to be changed in it. The first thing that comes to mind is that perhaps the SG was wounded and close to dead and captured by the Chaos marines as they were leaving the ship. Nothing like a bit of torture to while away the boredom on a long trip after all. This could bring about another way that a SG could be twisted into Chaos. Probably a more reasonable reason perhaps. There are plenty of examples in all the canon books of Torture being used to change someone. And before you go off on how Space Marines are immune to Torture...I put forth the examples of how the Dark Angels 'Redeem' the Fallen they find. By Torture,pure and simple. Now ,when Sang fought the Blood thirster that first time,and got his legs broken,Didn't every Blood Angel on that planet go Berserk thinking he had died? I am fairly sure it mentions that. Now...We all know that the Blood Angels were linked psychicly to their Primarch, Far more strongly then any other Chapter. So it is safe to assume that anyone that had been on that ship when Sang died,if they were alive,would not be in the most coherent state to begin with. So,If he went with the Idea of a near-dead SG,forced to live through the death of Sang at close range,and then suffering Torture in the Warp. A Greater Daemon of Tzeentch,doing all it could (which we know from several books is quite a considerable amount) to play on the mind of the guy. Who knows...He could have spent thousands of years in the Warp before he fell. The Daemon could have promised him a way to bring back Sanguinus for serving him. He could have been told that the Imperium had fallen along with the Emperor,to further weaken his resolve,and only learned after he had been twisted and remade into a Chaos Lord that it still existed,though rotten to the core. There are a almost infinite amount of things that could have been done to erode the mind and will of the SG till it broke. That is of course assuming it was intact when he was initially captured,which might be iffy at best. Now,Black Orange,and the others that have voiced doubts about Jarl's reasoning...Let me ask you this..would you rather that he came here,presented an idea and asked for ways that it is or is not possible,and tried to find ways to represent your chapter accurately, Or would you rather he just pulled an idea out of his arse,said "they are space vampires allready,whats one more peice of weirdness" and presented it that way? I know that given the two options,if the Space Wolves were the ones in question, which I would prefer. I am fairly confident of which you all would prefer as well. We Space Wolves tend to really love a good story,and that is what Jarl is trying to craft. By all means,point out ways that the idea is flawed. Should you feel inclined,point out ways it could be improved. And before any of you wonder,No I did not come into this thread because Jarl put out a call to the Wolves or anything silly like that.To date I don't think I have even seen Jarl posting in any of the threads on the Wolves section. I wandered in,decided to take a look around,and check out some of the Fluff for your Chapter,considering I just got done reading the BA 5th codex a bit ago and wanted to learn more because I was considering having Blood Angels show up in one of the chapters of stories I am writing for the backstory of some of the Characters in my army. I stumbled on the thread and decided that the idea was possible and wanted to help him develop it. Not out of chapter envy or any of the other charming reasons that certain people put forth....But because I love a great story. I wouldn't write the stories I do on this board If I didn't love a good tale. I thought,and still think, that having a squad of..well I guess they would be not scouts but the very next step up in experience squad of Blood Angels in friendly competition with the Blood Claws would be kind of fun. Maybe even having it be Jump Pack centered, with some good natured grumbling about how the BA make this look so damn easy. To date my Blood claws have been deployed on the ground,so they wouldn't be taking to it with any ease. But that is the question of another thread. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/202166-black-ragered-thirst-and-sanguinary-guard/page/3/#findComment-2411002 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Bloodwolf Posted May 25, 2010 Author Share Posted May 25, 2010 Well, if you're going to base your DIY chapter off the BA's I reallly hope you're going to take the time to do some proper reserch, not just going on the often wrong messages on the interweb... You still havent come up with what (to me) seems like a justifiable reason for an 'unknown' survivor to exist, and to fall to chaos because of the death of Sanguinius. Have you actually read how the Black Rage took time to appear after Sang died - there was no massive psychic shockwave that hit every BA. Not until/unless they get to writing the last HH book where the fight happens. And every loyalist that teleported onto that ship was after 1 thing and 1 thing only - Horus on the command deck - so no mysterious sabotage mission to the enginarium for your survivor. It was either Horus dead/Imperium wins, or the Emperor, Dorn, Sang and every loyaist dead and Chaos winning. No point in blowing up the enemy ship if you've just lost the Emperor after all. I am fairly sure that the biggest reason he came here was to get peoples viewpoints,to take advantage of the greater and more specialized knowledge of the BA players here as a good starting point. The fact you point out about the sabotage mission not being likely at all is a perfect example of the knowledge he was looking for. So right off the bat,something would have to be changed in it. The first thing that comes to mind is that perhaps the SG was wounded and close to dead and captured by the Chaos marines as they were leaving the ship. Nothing like a bit of torture to while away the boredom on a long trip after all. This could bring about another way that a SG could be twisted into Chaos. Probably a more reasonable reason perhaps. There are plenty of examples in all the canon books of Torture being used to change someone. And before you go off on how Space Marines are immune to Torture...I put forth the examples of how the Dark Angels 'Redeem' the Fallen they find. By Torture,pure and simple. Now ,when Sang fought the Blood thirster that first time,and got his legs broken,Didn't every Blood Angel on that planet go Berserk thinking he had died? I am fairly sure it mentions that. Now...We all know that the Blood Angels were linked psychicly to their Primarch, Far more strongly then any other Chapter. So it is safe to assume that anyone that had been on that ship when Sang died,if they were alive,would not be in the most coherent state to begin with. So,If he went with the Idea of a near-dead SG,forced to live through the death of Sang at close range,and then suffering Torture in the Warp. A Greater Daemon of Tzeentch,doing all it could (which we know from several books is quite a considerable amount) to play on the mind of the guy. Who knows...He could have spent thousands of years in the Warp before he fell. The Daemon could have promised him a way to bring back Sanguinus for serving him. He could have been told that the Imperium had fallen along with the Emperor,to further weaken his resolve,and only learned after he had been twisted and remade into a Chaos Lord that it still existed,though rotten to the core. There are a almost infinite amount of things that could have been done to erode the mind and will of the SG till it broke. That is of course assuming it was intact when he was initially captured,which might be iffy at best. Now,Black Orange,and the others that have voiced doubts about Jarl's reasoning...Let me ask you this..would you rather that he came here,presented an idea and asked for ways that it is or is not possible,and tried to find ways to represent your chapter accurately, Or would you rather he just pulled an idea out of his arse,said "they are space vampires allready,whats one more peice of weirdness" and presented it that way? I know that given the two options,if the Space Wolves were the ones in question, which I would prefer. I am fairly confident of which you all would prefer as well. We Space Wolves tend to really love a good story,and that is what Jarl is trying to craft. By all means,point out ways that the idea is flawed. Should you feel inclined,point out ways it could be improved. And before any of you wonder,No I did not come into this thread because Jarl put out a call to the Wolves or anything silly like that.To date I don't think I have even seen Jarl posting in any of the threads on the Wolves section. I wandered in,decided to take a look around,and check out some of the Fluff for your Chapter,considering I just got done reading the BA 5th codex a bit ago and wanted to learn more because I was considering having Blood Angels show up in one of the chapters of stories I am writing for the backstory of some of the Characters in my army. I stumbled on the thread and decided that the idea was possible and wanted to help him develop it. Not out of chapter envy or any of the other charming reasons that certain people put forth....But because I love a great story. I wouldn't write the stories I do on this board If I didn't love a good tale. I thought,and still think, that having a squad of..well I guess they would be not scouts but the very next step up in experience squad of Blood Angels in friendly competition with the Blood Claws would be kind of fun. Maybe even having it be Jump Pack centered, with some good natured grumbling about how the BA make this look so damn easy. To date my Blood claws have been deployed on the ground,so they wouldn't be taking to it with any ease. But that is the question of another thread. That is exactly why I posted this, who better to ask about Blood Angels then BA players in the BA forum. That being said I do understand why many BA players dont like the idea of a member of the SG turning to chaos. Its the same as saying a SW Wolf Guard had turned, a DA Deathwing, an Ultramarines honour guard or any other veteran of a chapter. But of course it is known that chapter masters and of course primarchs can and have turned to chaos, and if these venerated leaders can fall anyone can. I do appreciate most of the answers i have recieved as many of them have given me food for thought and given me the oppurtunity to beat out the kinks in my story and make it more believable for actual BA fans who while they may not like it could see it as at least credible if not an interesting story when it is all said and done. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/202166-black-ragered-thirst-and-sanguinary-guard/page/3/#findComment-2411061 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roachboy Posted May 25, 2010 Share Posted May 25, 2010 Before the new codex i'd have said BA allying with necrons was impossible.... I personally think your idea is very plausible, good luck with it Roachboy Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/202166-black-ragered-thirst-and-sanguinary-guard/page/3/#findComment-2411086 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Bloodwolf Posted May 25, 2010 Author Share Posted May 25, 2010 BA and Necrons? How does that happen? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/202166-black-ragered-thirst-and-sanguinary-guard/page/3/#findComment-2411120 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roachboy Posted May 25, 2010 Share Posted May 25, 2010 during a battle they stopped fighting each other to kill tyranids together, then went their seperate ways. They occasionally write to each other....or not. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/202166-black-ragered-thirst-and-sanguinary-guard/page/3/#findComment-2411133 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Bloodwolf Posted May 25, 2010 Author Share Posted May 25, 2010 :) wow. That kind of dosent make sense though because in either the Tyranid or Necron codex it shows tendrils of hive fleets avoiding worlds with Necrons on them, I think its the Necron codex. Oh well back on topic Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/202166-black-ragered-thirst-and-sanguinary-guard/page/3/#findComment-2411148 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blindhamster Posted May 25, 2010 Share Posted May 25, 2010 hey again Jarl ;) just wanted to say that: Its the same as saying a SW Wolf Guard had turned, a DA Deathwing, an Ultramarines honour guard or any other veteran of a chapter is sadly rather innacurate, it'd be more like... perhaps a chaplain from another chapter falling, honestly, the codex has made a huge deal about just how pure and restrained the Sanguinary Guard are, they don't even have the red thirst rule they're that restrained. A wolf Guard, Deathwing or honour guard would be like a blood angels stern/vanguard, terminator or honour guard respectfully. However, I do think there is space for you to work on the idea, personally I'd say your thoughts on him not acftually following a chaos god sound good, not sure if you've read soul hunter? its a Night Lord Novel, the main character is a Night Lord Apothacary, he doesn't follow the chaos gods and he hates his own chapter for what they've become. Perhaps you could take ideas from that? This Character loathes the chaos gods and their legions for what they did, what they've become, but equally loathes the loyalists for what the emperor allowed to happen, and for the shadows the loyalists have become, going along that idea you really can work with the fallen angel motif, I stand by making him look like a sanguinary guard above all still however, if you don't do that, personally id scrap him being a Sanguinary Guard and instead work on the concept of him having been a captain or similar (which would be much much much easier to explain as well :) ) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/202166-black-ragered-thirst-and-sanguinary-guard/page/3/#findComment-2411343 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted May 25, 2010 Share Posted May 25, 2010 If I recall correctly, all of the original Sanguinary Guard were killed on Horus's ship (except one who was not on the ship). Now, is it possible one turned to chaos rather than be killed and was recorded as killed, yeah I guess that is possible. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/202166-black-ragered-thirst-and-sanguinary-guard/page/3/#findComment-2411455 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted May 25, 2010 Share Posted May 25, 2010 The chances of that are very slim though James. 0b Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/202166-black-ragered-thirst-and-sanguinary-guard/page/3/#findComment-2411529 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roachboy Posted May 25, 2010 Share Posted May 25, 2010 they don't have the red thirst rule for game balance probably. Same as all hq choices don't have it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/202166-black-ragered-thirst-and-sanguinary-guard/page/3/#findComment-2411550 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted May 25, 2010 Share Posted May 25, 2010 It's a sign of control. 0b Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/202166-black-ragered-thirst-and-sanguinary-guard/page/3/#findComment-2411555 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roachboy Posted May 25, 2010 Share Posted May 25, 2010 no one can control it completely (except mephiston, but hes an anomaly). I know its not red thirst, but look at Tycho. A CAPTAIN couldn't control the black rage, theres no reason why they should have more control over red thirst then any blood angel. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/202166-black-ragered-thirst-and-sanguinary-guard/page/3/#findComment-2411580 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pcm979 Posted May 25, 2010 Share Posted May 25, 2010 I contend the assumption that susceptibility to the Black Rage equals susceptibility to the Red Thirst. If they were the same then they wouldn't have seperate rules, after all. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/202166-black-ragered-thirst-and-sanguinary-guard/page/3/#findComment-2411587 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted May 25, 2010 Share Posted May 25, 2010 As an official matter, I would like to request that the idea being discussed be discussed politely. It is possible to believe the idea to be impossible without resorting to rudeness or trolling. And if you see posts that you consider rude/offensive, please use the report button rather than jumping in and adding more fuel to the fire. I know this thread has (thankfully) calmed. But if there is another issue, it will be closed and more warnings will be handed out. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/202166-black-ragered-thirst-and-sanguinary-guard/page/3/#findComment-2411608 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Bloodwolf Posted May 25, 2010 Author Share Posted May 25, 2010 hey again Jarl :lol: just wanted to say that: Its the same as saying a SW Wolf Guard had turned, a DA Deathwing, an Ultramarines honour guard or any other veteran of a chapter is sadly rather innacurate, it'd be more like... perhaps a chaplain from another chapter falling, honestly, the codex has made a huge deal about just how pure and restrained the Sanguinary Guard are, they don't even have the red thirst rule they're that restrained. A wolf Guard, Deathwing or honour guard would be like a blood angels stern/vanguard, terminator or honour guard respectfully. In my referance to veteran units of other chapters I was refering to them being among the elite of a chapter and so the idea of them turning wouldent be very popular. But I do see what you mean However, I do think there is space for you to work on the idea, personally I'd say your thoughts on him not acftually following a chaos god sound good, not sure if you've read soul hunter? its a Night Lord Novel, the main character is a Night Lord Apothacary, he doesn't follow the chaos gods and he hates his own chapter for what they've become. Perhaps you could take ideas from that? This Character loathes the chaos gods and their legions for what they did, what they've become, but equally loathes the loyalists for what the emperor allowed to happen, and for the shadows the loyalists have become, going along that idea you really can work with the fallen angel motif, I stand by making him look like a sanguinary guard above all still however, if you don't do that, personally id scrap him being a Sanguinary Guard and instead work on the concept of him having been a captain or similar (which would be much much much easier to explain as well :) ) Yes it would be ALOT easier to explain and in my original drafts he was a BA captain but I decided that that Abigor being a SG was more of a dramatic turn and added more to the fallen angel idea. And as for modeling him as a SG I like the idea and plan on doing it. I am going to use the SG wings, possibly one of the heads and maybe the legs. But I am still going to probably use a possesed marines torso and of course he will have a chaos sword and the sheild I mentioned above, he may be an angel and loyal to Sanguinius above all others but he is still a fallen angel who made a pact with the gods of chaos so it has to be slightly represented. The only problem I have with using the SG model is painting him, as befits his name as the Black Angel I think I will paint his armor black and like you said have blood stains on it and I'm thinking about having the feathers of his wings be gold. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/202166-black-ragered-thirst-and-sanguinary-guard/page/3/#findComment-2411631 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roachboy Posted May 25, 2010 Share Posted May 25, 2010 Both the red thirst and black rage are written into the blood angels geneseed, i see no reason why one can be controlled and the other cannot. Cheers, roachboy edit: the above idea is cool, go for it Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/202166-black-ragered-thirst-and-sanguinary-guard/page/3/#findComment-2411633 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnorriSnorrison Posted May 25, 2010 Share Posted May 25, 2010 The Sanguinary Guard do have the rule "Red Thirst". They are still subject to the flaw, but they are not really normal Blood Angels. Snorri Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/202166-black-ragered-thirst-and-sanguinary-guard/page/3/#findComment-2411643 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pcm979 Posted May 25, 2010 Share Posted May 25, 2010 Both the red thirst and black rage are written into the blood angels geneseed, i see no reason why one can be controlled and the other cannot. Cheers, roachboy For the same reason you can control a fireplace and not a bushfire. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/202166-black-ragered-thirst-and-sanguinary-guard/page/3/#findComment-2411645 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roachboy Posted May 25, 2010 Share Posted May 25, 2010 *actually looks at his codex* So they do! I just assumed they didn't because someone said so earlier. I don't use them personally... edit: Pcm, that makes no sense, a fireplace is a fire that YOU start in a controlled environment. A bushfire is (normally, though not always) a natural occurrence in an uncontrolled environment. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/202166-black-ragered-thirst-and-sanguinary-guard/page/3/#findComment-2411649 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pcm979 Posted May 25, 2010 Share Posted May 25, 2010 You're taking me far too literally. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/202166-black-ragered-thirst-and-sanguinary-guard/page/3/#findComment-2411658 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Bloodwolf Posted May 25, 2010 Author Share Posted May 25, 2010 Both the red thirst and black rage are written into the blood angels geneseed, i see no reason why one can be controlled and the other cannot. Cheers, roachboy edit: the above idea is cool, go for it Which idea would you be refering to brother? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/202166-black-ragered-thirst-and-sanguinary-guard/page/3/#findComment-2411661 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roachboy Posted May 25, 2010 Share Posted May 25, 2010 The whole loyal to Sanguinius, not the emperor vibe. Kinda makes him more renegade than completely fallen, so I think you should be careful not to make him look to Chaosy (is that a word? it is now!) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/202166-black-ragered-thirst-and-sanguinary-guard/page/3/#findComment-2411667 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Bloodwolf Posted May 25, 2010 Author Share Posted May 25, 2010 As an official matter, I would like to request that the idea being discussed be discussed politely. It is possible to believe the idea to be impossible without resorting to rudeness or trolling. And if you see posts that you consider rude/offensive, please use the report button rather than jumping in and adding more fuel to the fire. I know this thread has (thankfully) calmed. But if there is another issue, it will be closed and more warnings will be handed out. No complaints on my end boss :) (I mean about the topic being discussed politly from here on). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/202166-black-ragered-thirst-and-sanguinary-guard/page/3/#findComment-2411690 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piousservant Posted May 25, 2010 Share Posted May 25, 2010 Yes it would be ALOT easier to explain and in my original drafts he was a BA captain but I decided that that Abigor being a SG was more of a dramatic turn and added more to the fallen angel idea. And as for modeling him as a SG I like the idea and plan on doing it. I am going to use the SG wings, possibly one of the heads and maybe the legs. But I am still going to probably use a possesed marines torso and of course he will have a chaos sword and the sheild I mentioned above, he may be an angel and loyal to Sanguinius above all others but he is still a fallen angel who made a pact with the gods of chaos so it has to be slightly represented. The only problem I have with using the SG model is painting him, as befits his name as the Black Angel I think I will paint his armor black and like you said have blood stains on it and I'm thinking about having the feathers of his wings be gold. Sounds good. Make sure you post some pics when you make him. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/202166-black-ragered-thirst-and-sanguinary-guard/page/3/#findComment-2411716 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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