Where's the Captain?

[Brother Grimm]

ok I noticed that in the majority of Blood Angels lists lack a Captain/Commander...

 

any reason why they're usually a secondary choice? They look great on the field and enough gear to represent the Principles of the chapter in good detail....

 

still I don't see them on the lists...

[toaae]

It's because they just aren't as effective, point for point, as the other HQs. Look at it this way:

 

Captain w/ Power Wweapon

pts. 115

 

Reclusiarch

pts. 130

 

Librarian

pts. 100

 

Most of us decide that for 15 points, the Reclusiarch's special rules are way worth it, while for 15 points less, the Librarian's ability to heavily buff a unit is worth the loss of stats.

 

Its not that the Captain is a bad character. It's just that he isn't as good as the other options.

[Brother-Captain Devlonir]

Probably the lack of artificer armor option for Captains seems a great loss. A 3+ Commander is just a bit too squishy..

 

And the powerhouse HQ characters (Dante, Mephiston) do have the 2+ armor save.

And of course, the Reclusiarch and Libby add more then a Captain does.

[Tokunator]

In a Codex Marine army, a Captain can modify the FOC by making Bikers a Troops choice and he can be tooled to become a great fighter with a Relic Blade and a Storm Shield.

 

In a Blood Angel army, he can do none of these things, being unable to go beyond S4 (or 5 with Furious Charge) or not having the option to modify the FOC. So you can either go for a fairly expensive yet slightly mediocre fighter with Jump Pack and Twin Claws or go down the support road, using him to increase the strength of a unit. And in that case, he simply is not as much of a force multiplier as a Reclusiarch or Librarian.

 

Blood Angels are best if used in decisive assaults, using their superior speed to isolate parts of the enemy and crushing them in one turn before engaging the rest and in that scenario, the re-rolls granted by the Reclusiarch or the Librarian just add so much more to the army than the better stats of the Captain.

[Redo]

In a Codex Marine army, a Captain can modify the FOC by making Bikers a Troops choice and he can be tooled to become a great fighter with a Relic Blade and a Storm Shield.

 

In a Blood Angel army, he can do none of these things, being unable to go beyond S4 (or 5 with Furious Charge) or not having the option to modify the FOC. So you can either go for a fairly expensive yet slightly mediocre fighter with Jump Pack and Twin Claws or go down the support road, using him to increase the strength of a unit. And in that case, he simply is not as much of a force multiplier as a Reclusiarch or Librarian.

 

Blood Angels are best if used in decisive assaults, using their superior speed to isolate parts of the enemy and crushing them in one turn before engaging the rest and in that scenario, the re-rolls granted by the Reclusiarch or the Librarian just add so much more to the army than the better stats of the Captain.

 

Could not have said it better myself. I think GW stuffed up a bit when developing the Captain...as you stated he cannot get a Relic Blade or even a Blade Encarmine, yet a Vanguard Veteran Sergeant can. Not that Blade Encarmine is that great. Actually I think GW stuffed up with the Blade Encarmine too!

[BrotherMoses]

In a Codex Marine army, a Captain can modify the FOC by making Bikers a Troops choice and he can be tooled to become a great fighter with a Relic Blade and a Storm Shield.

 

In a Blood Angel army, he can do none of these things, being unable to go beyond S4 (or 5 with Furious Charge) or not having the option to modify the FOC. So you can either go for a fairly expensive yet slightly mediocre fighter with Jump Pack and Twin Claws or go down the support road, using him to increase the strength of a unit. And in that case, he simply is not as much of a force multiplier as a Reclusiarch or Librarian.

 

Blood Angels are best if used in decisive assaults, using their superior speed to isolate parts of the enemy and crushing them in one turn before engaging the rest and in that scenario, the re-rolls granted by the Reclusiarch or the Librarian just add so much more to the army than the better stats of the Captain.

 

Could not have said it better myself. I think GW stuffed up a bit when developing the Captain...as you stated he cannot get a Relic Blade or even a Blade Encarmine, yet a Vanguard Veteran Sergeant can. Not that Blade Encarmine is that great. Actually I think GW stuffed up with the Blade Encarmine too!

 

I agree wholeheartedly with these statements as well.

[JamesI]

I used a captain with jump pack and pair of claws. Nice, reasonably killy especially when near a sanguinary priest.

 

But for the same cost I can have a Reclusiarch with jump pack. I lose a point of weaponskill and reroll wounds to add fearless and reroll hits on the charge for the entire unit (plus I can use the great new Lemartes model)

[Rizara]

Amen brothers. As individual fights go, the captain is probably one of the best, non special, independant characters in a single on there own fight. The captain has some of the better stats compared to a reclusiarch and librarian. However the captain as stated provided no extra bonus to the army and can't get some of the nice cool stuff to make him really nasty like vanilla marines. A chaplain provides such a substantial combat buff to any unit he is attached to that he becomes the overall superior choice. Even if the chaplain has a few reduced stats and costs 15 points more, its worth the points and stat loss to have a much more effective unit that hes attached to. The libraians stats are even worse and he costs the same cost as a base captain, but he does come with a forceweapon and the hood and psychic powers, so a librarians attachs can become brutal, and he can go thru armor starting off, not to mention can instant kill another character if he wanted to. So alot of players tend to take them because of the pshyic protection and powers.

 

What the captain lacks is the same army synergy that the other characters provide. In his current state there is no real reason to take a captain unless your playing an apocalypse game and you want to field a battle company. If they had given the captain some better options, or even the ability to pay to upgrade to take say rites of battle, or an orbital strike, then he might be worth taking even if you do have to really pay for those upgrades. It would have been nice if the captain had some sort of anti red thirst ability as in some of the fluff and stories where the captains presense seems to help to keep his marines in check so the red thirst is less likely to happen. Then he would be a great asset for those blood angels who want to build a more traditional looking codex style chapter.

 

I had included one in my original list, but in three games he hasn't seen combat and barely left his transport. I mostly included him cause at the time he was the only character model i had converted up already when i recylcled some of my old marines to start my new blood angels. I have a few older chaplain models, but i don't really like those compared to some of the newer(taller) sculpts.

However now i will be fielding a reclusiarch because hes just more effective for my assault troops and especially my death company which tends to lead the spearhead of my force into enemy lines.

[Droofus]

I agree with midnight angel. The captain simply lacks the special rules available to our other two generic HQ. Add rites of battle back in and I'd probably take him instead of a reclusiarch or librarian (yes, I really do fail that many LD9 tests by rolling a 10).

 

That said, he is the only one of our generic HQs to have easy access to a storm shield. I've often thought that a jump captain with a storm shield and thunder hammer would be a nice little unit for dealing with monsters. But for the points, I think I'd probably just go with a Librarian in termy armor with a shield.

[Burningblood]

For that matter a veteran sergent with a thunderhammer, jump pack, and storm sheild is a lot cheaper.

[Brother Grimm]

that's a bit of a turn off in the army for me...

 

If the Captain sucks why even include him?

[Whitefireinferno]

You do he then sees the light and becomes a Res or Libby :tu:... Or Seth you know you want too

[Knyx]

If the Captain sucks why even include him?

 

 

 

Right.

 

Thats the point.

 

You don't.

[Brother Grimm]

You do he then sees the light and becomes a Res or Libby :)... Or Seth you know you want too

 

ok that sounds silly.... a Libarian Captain? ( could work if I use a successor chapter...)

 

Seth might be a liable choice... I like his style of being a dirty fighter... though I might kitbash my own version... model looks cool but I'm not into Flesh Tearers...

[Vel'Cona]

that's a bit of a turn off in the army for me...

 

If the Captain sucks why even include him?

 

Funzies? Seriously the Captain isn't a terrible choice, he's just outclassed entirely by the other two options. He's still a perfectly viable choice, just not as competitive as his counterparts. As others have said, if you want to build a background-oriented army, you can still slot in a dual LC Cappy or the like and get a reasonable kill tally. For competition, though, it's all about the Libby/Reclusiarch.

 

Don't get me wrong, however; the fact that the Captain is the inferior choice definitely hurts. :)

[mysteriousmaskedmystery]

if all captains still had something like rites of battle, or an orbital strike then they would be worth something, but the sad thing is, even though they really aren't over-priced, they sort of are, they'd almost be a better choice with lower stats and a much reduced points cost, making them the cheap HQ option, but they wind up being the most expensive because they just don't do anything worthwhile without a ton of gear that doubles their cost.

 

rites of battle really made captains fluffy and useful, i'm not saying it's a huge loss, it was in for what, one edition? but it sort of drew attention to the fact that they just aren't really all that special. you're so much better off with Seth or Tycho as a captain-type character. the only reason i would take a captain is as part of an apoch formation that required it.

[Spagunk]

Was just thinking about this topic recently...decided to say "To hell with it" and made myself a JP captain with PW and flamer pistol. Not effective but looks fun as hell to play.

[Isryion]

that's a bit of a turn off in the army for me...

 

If the Captain sucks why even include him?

 

 

I wouldn't go so far as to say he sucks, but that there are more cost effective choices.

[Redo]

if all captains still had something like rites of battle, or an orbital strike then they would be worth something, but the sad thing is, even though they really aren't over-priced, they sort of are, they'd almost be a better choice with lower stats and a much reduced points cost, making them the cheap HQ option, but they wind up being the most expensive because they just don't do anything worthwhile without a ton of gear that doubles their cost.

 

rites of battle really made captains fluffy and useful, i'm not saying it's a huge loss, it was in for what, one edition? but it sort of drew attention to the fact that they just aren't really all that special. you're so much better off with Seth or Tycho as a captain-type character. the only reason i would take a captain is as part of an apoch formation that required it.

 

I completely agree with the "RItes of Battle" thing. I think all Captains should have it. It is (was) their special skill. Making them cheaper etc not so keen on. Captains, like the other codex choices need a force multiplier effect. At the moment, they are not doing that and are an odd choice.

[SamaNagol]

I'd take a LD10 I5 model with WS5, 3+/4++, 2 wounds and 3 base attacks for say 75pts. I don't need the rest of the stuff.

[4RC71C FOXX]

I modelled up a Jump Pack Twin Claws Captain as one of my first models, and he is still one of my favourites, so I will play him in some lists. He has had almost as hit and miss a career as my death company to date: in his first game he only managed to kill a single chaos marine, while in another game he killed the chaos lord in one turn, and about half of the squad accompanying him. But tbh my librarian has always been my more effective and preferred-for the sheer fun of it-HQ choice, and now that Ive started using Dante, I think the captain may see less action.

 

FOXX

[mysteriousmaskedmystery]

look at C:SW for how bad our captain could be.

[shan vener]

i LOVE fielding captains, if you look at it you could make some fun builds (not exactly effective :cuss )

like if he has termie armor he can have 2 thunder hammers (look it up) or that he can have 2 chainswords (again look it up) :cuss my point is their just fun to play, and yes that is what the game is about.

[Knyx]

look at C:SW for how bad our captain could be.

You mean an always hits on 3s, Strength 10, base toughness 5, 3 wound, eternal warrior, 6 Thunder Hammer attacks on the charge 2+/3++ that can move 6, fleet 6 and charge 12 and be hidden behind 15 ablative T4 wounds?

 

 

 

I think GW did right by Wolf Lords. If you want to make a bamf Wolf Lord, you can. (You pay for it, but you can. And it FEELS right to have the BAMFiest Wolf Lords you can have)

 

 

If you want to have a bamf Blood Angels hero, you really can't go generic. You've gota pick a named one. Or you have to tone down, and go Reclusiarch or Libby.

[Priest33]

Ive been taking a captain just for a dual lighning claw leader of my assault squad *shrug* 3 wounds and 5 attacks on the charge is great... shame he cant have 2+/4+ but meh