the angel vs the wolf

[sodhero]

i am new to sm type army and ive chosen ba because i like their backround(fluff). my friend has just got the sw dex and i looked threw it and was very surprized at all of their abilities and more so their costs on their units... most cost equal to or less than ours, downside on some was their ws and bs was 3 instead of 4 and leadership was 8 insted of 9 also......... alll and i mean ALL of their army has counter attack, their leadership was 8 but thats still awsome...their chappys had basically the same powers but were worded better..... and their libys were reallly awsomely power, again the wording was a little bit different that made their power all the more greater then ours in comparison... i really dont see how any ork player could ever even beat a wolf player...... i see alot of people saying that our dex is broken but i dont see why at all. the only real diff i see is our rhinos and offshoots are fast but we actually pay for it. our red fury is only on a role of 1 and thats only once when we enter the game..(1-3 with GRIM) their counter attack is always on......... we can have a librarian dread, storm ravens, sang priests..... those are nice speciality units but damn those wolf got even greater named charactures that are great.....alll be it very highly priced.... but definatly worth it.... . out of our named guys i can only see using meph, grim to get greater chance of red fury and 0-1 death co limit off,,,, also i like bro corbulo because of the"ONE" rerole,,,,, i know im ranting but it seemed the wolf got the better draw then the angel... WHAT DO U ALL THINK.........on a side note i read alot of BL books and i remember somewhere that a primarch was saying to another something to that fact that wolfs were second in furiousness to SANGUINES think it was hh furious abyss

[Jorre]

Don't worry to much about the wolves, BA and wolves are both very competative armies. Some of the wolf units seem very cheap but they are ballanced in other ways.. for example they can only take 1 special weapon in a grey hunter squad unless they have 10 guys in the squad, this means that they either have to be on foot to have a wolf guard leader for the squad. If they choose a transport they wont be able to take the wolf guard. In fact none of there squads have leaders unless they purchase a wold guard to lead the squad which will prolly bring the costs up very close to blood angels basic troops.

 

I'm prolly not the best to give advise since I don't play very much but Red ones go faster!!!!

[Liltom]

Seen as your post is too painful to read, I can only guess to what you're asking by the title. The Angel kicks the mutt in the face is therefore my answer to whatever question you were posing.

 

If you use proper grammar and split things up rather than posting a wall of text I might be a bit more helpful.

[Decoy]

While I may be biased (Read; Totally, unabashedly so), I'd have to say that the BA ultimately came away with a short end of the stick in regards to Codex. Most of the armies I've seen have pitiably low model count, easily dismantled by SW small arms fire. The other standard BA archetype I've seen is the Mech, including but not limitted to Storm Ravens, Predators, or Vindicators; Likewise, good positioning, spacing, and fire priority tends to tear these armies apart (I've never seen a Storm Raven live past turn 1, for instance, nor the cargo that it carried.)

 

The major downfall of the BA codex is that the developers seemed content to simply throw "Everything good" onto them, leading to overpriced squads, lower body count (60 Wolf bodies plus close-issue wargear [Plasmas, powerweapons] and two kitted Lords easily in a 1250 list, for instance, compared to 30-ish for BA), "Special rules" that are often mitigated, and tanks that never seem to survive simply due to a lack of "target saturation" ability. I've yet to see a BA list with more than 7-8 tanks, Dreads inclusive, which is oftentimes matched by two to three squads worth of antitank fire per. This is extended to characters; A fair few BA characters will never see play, while others will almost never see the shelf. Mephy comes to mind. While yes, he's expensive, he's too good NOT to include in an army. That can't be said of any character in the Wolves, even Ragnar. Oftentimes, "boilerplate" lords hit the battlefield more often than any named character. Wolves have that balance working for them in the form of points saved. Moreover, we have such things as "Wolf Tail Talismans" that can effectively be redundant force multipliers; For only a small amount of points, the squad has a 1/3 chance to completely ignore a psychic power, even AFTER the power gets through our 4+ (sometimes 3+) Runic Staff.

 

BA are a highly expensive, small, specialized force, while the Wolves are more general and in general, more adaptable. The BA will do their job and do it well, but Wolves have the strategic flexibility to adapt to almost any situation and come out ahead, oftentimes incredibly so. (Lone Wolf battling a Death Company Dread to a standstill that leans in favor of the Lone Wolf, for instance, for 40-50 points less.) The Wolves exchange the "OMG SLAUGHTER!" of the BA for tactical flexibility while avoiding overly specialist roles, and we save a lot of points for doing so.

 

With that said, if you look at things like Thunderwolf Cavalry, we -do- have the capacity to become a one-style army, simply running forth and slaughtering all in our way. Two or three squads of Thunderwolf Cav, plus four Lords on TWC, is an incredibly intimidating (But expensive) sight, capable of bulldozing over anything else in the game. The same for an All-Terminator army, all armed with Storm Shields; We won't have a whole lot of models (What, maybe 20-30, tops, in a 2250 game?), but we'll be able to take down damned near anything that's not faster than us.

 

Where the strength of the BA lies is in the speed of the army, as well as the powerful charge that they get. When denied the charge, BA are only marginally better than normal Marines, and inferior to such troops as Grey Hunters. BA are incredibly tactical, unbelievably powerful, and one of the most unforgiving armies to play with or against; if you leave that DC out in the open, in rapidfire range but outside charge range, they very well will become the biggest point sink you've ever dropped. With the Wolves, there are no such units; even Thunderwolves allow a fair bit of maneuverability should you use them incorrectly.

 

By and large, the BA codex is fairly decent, but especially for newer gamers, it's incredibly unforgiving. With high unit prices, a necessary understanding of critical strategies and tactics, and a fair eye for detail in regards to move and charge distances, the current BA is one of the hardest armies to play, in my mind.

[Liltom]

With our fast rhinos and razorbacks and cheap feel no pain BA are not the one trick pony you seem to imagine. Sure they are too a newcomer who spots shiny stuff and is determined to shove everything in, but as soon as you play against a more experienced player with a well rounded BA force you will be a bit more enlightened to where their power lies. It isn't in an over specialised force, I promise.

 

Not to mention, you don't seem to have faced the nastier side of mech lists. That is, 2 fast vindicators, 3 different land raiders and 3 razorbacks all with squads at the bare minimum points. Storm Ravens are not where it's at, crazy tanks are.

 

Still, the SW list is proper nasty and I do like it. It's easier to perform well with, but doesn't perform as well as the BA list. In my slightly biased opinion ^_^ We won't ever agree on this, but I think we can both accept that :D

[angel of justice]

Being new to the hobby you will probably see the grass being greener in every other codex you read, its natural. However blood angels are very competitive but have there own unique flavour (chocolate) compared to space wolves (strawberry) some people will say that chocolate is the best flavour when compared to strawberry and strawberry is the better flavour and others will say that vanilla (codex space marines) or mint chocolate (Vulcan lists) is probably one of the best flavours since it makes all melta/flame/hammers master crafted. This is natural because of everyone having unique taste and tactical mindset. All the new space marine lists are pretty much equal in deliciousness they just have different flavours. The only one that has gone stale is the dark angels Codex, where there cyclone missile launchers are worse, there storm shields are worse there apothecaries are lazy (stopping 1 wound not granting feel no pain) and because of codex creep having no real defining attribute as a chapter that other space marine codex's can not do arguably better.

 

I think i want ice cream now.

[sodhero]

i thank all of you for your posts...... i am new to ba as "one" has stated. im greatfull for feedback that was helpfull. i understand everything that was said and i guess i was just a bit angry and had a couple of beverages in me by the end of night. all of my models are assembled and have a base coat, im excited to play test and find out they're playstyle. thanks again for posts back

[BlessedSword]

With that said, if you look at things like Thunderwolf Cavalry, we -do- have the capacity to become a one-style army, simply running forth and slaughtering all in our way. Two or three squads of Thunderwolf Cav, plus four Lords on TWC, is an incredibly intimidating (But expensive) sight, capable of bulldozing over anything else in the game. The same for an All-Terminator army, all armed with Storm Shields; We won't have a whole lot of models (What, maybe 20-30, tops, in a 2250 game?), but we'll be able to take down damned near anything that's not faster than us.

 

BA are pretty capable in this regard as well, get a squad of assault termis, sanguinary priest, and librarian with Unleash Rage and your looking at 4 S5 I5 power weapon attacks/model on the charge that all re-roll to hit and re-roll to wound, plus you get FNP.

 

Another setup is DC with chappy, 14 DC and a chappy in a LR is gonna put out 56 S5 attacks on the charge at WS 5 and I5, all of which re-roll to hit (meaning about 9/10 attacks will hit against most units) and re-roll to wound (except for the chappy's). Add some power weapons and power fists and you've got one extremely killy unit. :devil:

[Requiem of the Wolf]

With that said, if you look at things like Thunderwolf Cavalry, we -do- have the capacity to become a one-style army, simply running forth and slaughtering all in our way. Two or three squads of Thunderwolf Cav, plus four Lords on TWC, is an incredibly intimidating (But expensive) sight, capable of bulldozing over anything else in the game. The same for an All-Terminator army, all armed with Storm Shields; We won't have a whole lot of models (What, maybe 20-30, tops, in a 2250 game?), but we'll be able to take down damned near anything that's not faster than us.

 

BA are pretty capable in this regard as well, get a squad of assault termis, sanguinary priest, and librarian with Unleash Rage and your looking at 4 S5 I5 power weapon attacks/model on the charge that all re-roll to hit and re-roll to wound, plus you get FNP.

 

Another setup is DC with chappy, 14 DC and a chappy in a LR is gonna put out 56 S5 attacks on the charge at WS 5 and I5, all of which re-roll to hit (meaning about 9/10 attacks will hit against most units) and re-roll to wound (except for the chappy's). Add some power weapons and power fists and you've got one extremely killy unit. :D

As has been stated before..Blood Angels are a very competitive army. While the Wolves have some neat psychic powers,I would honestly say that the Psyker powers that the Blood Angels have are as good and in some cases better,but mostly just geared differently. The Blood Angels have the ability to make their Librarians effective in HTH against vehicles and MC's...We don't have it that easy. Though our RP can hit on 3's with a small expenditure while yours will tend to hit on 4's. Your Psykers can give rerolls to hit and wound to their entire squad for whatever enemy they assault that round. We have to have another Independant character that can only give it to one specific type and only reroll to hit. our 24 inch line of doom CAN be more useful,but it can also do absolutely nothing,and it endangers our troops as well and again cant affect vehicles. Your 24 inch line of doom avoids your guys,and while only does one wound,it stands a very good chance of wounding anything it hits,plus it can do decent against vehicles. Your psyker can get mobility...Ours can take it away from a unit. This one I think we come out better,but its a matter of style really. We do get Living lightning...which is a better shooting attack then almost anything out there granted..But you get fear of the dark,which can cause a entire unit to break and run off the table. Now our Psykers are slightly better at countering enemy psykers...but only slightly.

 

We get more Variety then any other army out there,but the moment we use that variety it gets spendy fast. As an example..It costs us 63 points per model to have a Terminator with TH/SS. For Blood Angels it is..60 I think...if not slightly less. Blood Angels have alot of good things in their codex...and if you get distracted you will end up having an unbalanced army. It is harder (not impossible just harder) to do the same thing with Space Wolves,so in that respect and that respect alone will I say that Wolves are easier for a new player. But by that rationale, Vanilla space marines would be easiest.

 

So in short...Stick with Blood Angels,experiment with the units to see which ones work best for you,and go from there. Don't focus on what the other Codex's can do for any reason other then developing tactics to deal with their tricks.

[JamesI]

As I have said in the past, I think the Wolf codex is more powerful overall (and those complaining we are overpowered were off the mark)

 

But, I think our codex is good. Probably one of the top 5 or so in terms of power.

[Requiem of the Wolf]

As I have said in the past, I think the Wolf codex is more powerful overall (and those complaining we are overpowered were off the mark)

 

But, I think our codex is good. Probably one of the top 5 or so in terms of power.

I think that while the Wolf Codex might be more powerful overall,your Codex has a couple of exceptional units.many good units,and a couple sub par units,whereas the Wolf Codex has pretty much all good units. I think the only problem the Blood Angels have is that they have too much good stuff in some slots,while not allways enough good stuff in others. I also think that from a Mechanized list point of view,Blood Angels are far more powerful then Space Wolves for instance. From a pure footslogger point of view,the counterattack is obviously better. These of course are just my observations.

 

Taken as a whole,I don't believe Blood Angels are overpowered. Certain specific parts of their Codex I feel are..Like a drunken monkey on a tightrope. Balance challenged.

[Leonaides]

AFAIR - we can get a TH/SS termie for 45 pts per model. Kinda thows a spanner in the works of that nice expensive Wolfguard unit (are there actually enough other options to make a 5 man WG unit all with TH/SS in termie armour?)

[Decoy]

Yes there are, Leonaides. We can pretty much do anything with Wolf Guard; for instance, some of us are mulling over combi-melta combi-flamer Mark of the Wulfen Wolf Guard for a quasi-suicide unit. Pretty much, if it can be done with Terminators, we can do it or improve on it with Wolf Guard.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I prefer the new BA to SW and I have played both. It's just a matter of personal preference though. As a whole BA are more mobile than SW which is an advantage in 5ed.

 

0b :D

[Crynn]

While I may be biased (Read; Totally, unabashedly so), I'd have to say that the BA ultimately came away with a short end of the stick in regards to Codex. Most of the armies I've seen have pitiably low model count, easily dismantled by SW small arms fire. The other standard BA archetype I've seen is the Mech, including but not limitted to Storm Ravens, Predators, or Vindicators; Likewise, good positioning, spacing, and fire priority tends to tear these armies apart (I've never seen a Storm Raven live past turn 1, for instance, nor the cargo that it carried.)

 

The major downfall of the BA codex is that the developers seemed content to simply throw "Everything good" onto them, leading to overpriced squads, lower body count (60 Wolf bodies plus close-issue wargear [Plasmas, powerweapons] and two kitted Lords easily in a 1250 list, for instance, compared to 30-ish for BA), "Special rules" that are often mitigated, and tanks that never seem to survive simply due to a lack of "target saturation" ability. I've yet to see a BA list with more than 7-8 tanks, Dreads inclusive, which is oftentimes matched by two to three squads worth of antitank fire per. This is extended to characters; A fair few BA characters will never see play, while others will almost never see the shelf. Mephy comes to mind. While yes, he's expensive, he's too good NOT to include in an army. That can't be said of any character in the Wolves, even Ragnar. Oftentimes, "boilerplate" lords hit the battlefield more often than any named character. Wolves have that balance working for them in the form of points saved. Moreover, we have such things as "Wolf Tail Talismans" that can effectively be redundant force multipliers; For only a small amount of points, the squad has a 1/3 chance to completely ignore a psychic power, even AFTER the power gets through our 4+ (sometimes 3+) Runic Staff.

 

BA are a highly expensive, small, specialized force, while the Wolves are more general and in general, more adaptable. The BA will do their job and do it well, but Wolves have the strategic flexibility to adapt to almost any situation and come out ahead, oftentimes incredibly so. (Lone Wolf battling a Death Company Dread to a standstill that leans in favor of the Lone Wolf, for instance, for 40-50 points less.) The Wolves exchange the "OMG SLAUGHTER!" of the BA for tactical flexibility while avoiding overly specialist roles, and we save a lot of points for doing so.

 

With that said, if you look at things like Thunderwolf Cavalry, we -do- have the capacity to become a one-style army, simply running forth and slaughtering all in our way. Two or three squads of Thunderwolf Cav, plus four Lords on TWC, is an incredibly intimidating (But expensive) sight, capable of bulldozing over anything else in the game. The same for an All-Terminator army, all armed with Storm Shields; We won't have a whole lot of models (What, maybe 20-30, tops, in a 2250 game?), but we'll be able to take down damned near anything that's not faster than us.

 

Where the strength of the BA lies is in the speed of the army, as well as the powerful charge that they get. When denied the charge, BA are only marginally better than normal Marines, and inferior to such troops as Grey Hunters. BA are incredibly tactical, unbelievably powerful, and one of the most unforgiving armies to play with or against; if you leave that DC out in the open, in rapidfire range but outside charge range, they very well will become the biggest point sink you've ever dropped. With the Wolves, there are no such units; even Thunderwolves allow a fair bit of maneuverability should you use them incorrectly.

 

By and large, the BA codex is fairly decent, but especially for newer gamers, it's incredibly unforgiving. With high unit prices, a necessary understanding of critical strategies and tactics, and a fair eye for detail in regards to move and charge distances, the current BA is one of the hardest armies to play, in my mind.

 

 

HOLY CRAP! I have argued point blank that BA's can compete with SW but are very different and a much more difficult army to use and never, not once has anyone been able to completely comprehend the strengths and weaknesses properly of a BA army.

 

You sir deserve a medal and should post in every thread relevant to SW and BA's, good god there is too many of them. You clearly in my mind have a very good understanding of both armies and I couldn't flaw a single arguement you made.

 

Anyone wishing to play BA's and wondering why they should or how they should play them should read this post for a general overview. Thank you for what looks to me like an unbiased account of both armies and showing that BA's need to be used like a scalpel rather than a sledge hammer, the SW army is much more forgiving and can (bar speed) be much more adaptable in each units role on the battlefield.

 

Cheers to you.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Heck he didn't even touch on the following units:

 

Assault squads

Baal Predators

landraiders as dedicated transports

Sanguinary Priests

 

These units alone are some of the best we have and are not by any means overcosted. A full squad of assault Marines with 2x meltagun, infernus pistol & a power fist is very reasonably priced. We can take the discount for points and board them in a landraider. Drop one of the melta gunners and add a Priest with a power weapon or lightning claw. I have put the beatdown on Plague Marines, Khorne Berzerkers, even Bloodletters with this unit. You can design a competitive army that goes toe to toe with Space Wolves. Too many new players are focusing on the shiny toys which can quickly make for a rather small army. While SW have their Long Fangs we have our Baals and they are quite awesome indeed. If you opt to go sans jump packs then you can field a reasonably priced squad of Death Company. Put them in a transport with a Chaplain. While the DC does not have the resilience of Thunderwolves if kitted right they can cut through a squad on the charge. If you are up against Wolf Lords on Thunderwolves then bring the Sanguinor, about the same cost and the Sanguinor can win that fight. Three packs of TWC & 4x WL on TWC makes for an extremely small army. Our superior mobility gives us a huge edge over a WG terminator army... Blast away at them from range... They'll fail some saves for sure. I haven't lost yet to SW and I have seen just about every type of army they can field.

 

0b

[Crynn]

I too haven't lost a game to spacewolves but that means nothing in the scheme of things. I really wasnt impressed by the last post for reasons of ful rundown on our units but what he has shown is a relatively unbiased 'overview' of how the armies work where they differ their strengths and weekness' and how they play compeditivly overall. Yes most new BA players take all the shinies and that is wrong, I definately agree with you. I think our star performers are our middle range shinies like baals honor guard fast vinds cheap fantastic assault squads, you get the idea. Oh and MEPH!

[Priest33]

Meph is a trap imo. Rest of the post I agree with.

[Ultramarcos]

I liked the thread very much. I will go for a series of tournaments in the next weeks and none of the local gamers play space wolves. I'm also new to the BAs but I got a clear cut desire in my mind when I choose this army...I want to have fun by getting really fast to the face of my enemy and slap him hard in the face, and for that the BAs are well tooled.

If you are affraid to throw your little men in the enemy's jaw, BAs are not for you...if you like distant firepower...BAs not for you..but if you want to Bitch slap some enemies...this is it...it's all about how you want ot play.

The codex itself is very fun to read and use. You have so much options that give you a lot of room for different lists.

I agree with someone before...the BA codex might not be the Best ever but is for sure a top 5.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I think top three.

 

0b ;)

[Crynn]

I liked the thread very much. I will go for a series of tournaments in the next weeks and none of the local gamers play space wolves. I'm also new to the BAs but I got a clear cut desire in my mind when I choose this army...I want to have fun by getting really fast to the face of my enemy and slap him hard in the face, and for that the BAs are well tooled.

If you are affraid to throw your little men in the enemy's jaw, BAs are not for you...if you like distant firepower...BAs not for you..but if you want to Bitch slap some enemies...this is it...it's all about how you want ot play.

The codex itself is very fun to read and use. You have so much options that give you a lot of room for different lists.

I agree with someone before...the BA codex might not be the Best ever but is for sure a top 5.

 

 

Actually if it comes to a straight out shoot out the BA's can do it better than codex marine TBH, still not their strongest build but my point is their fire power is not to be underestimated

[Ultramarcos]

Actually if it comes to a straight out shoot out the BA's can do it better than codex marine TBH, still not their strongest build but my point is their fire power is not to be underestimated

 

I totally agree! Now BAs does what BAs does best! (or would be Groo? ;) )

[Requiem of the Wolf]

Actually if it comes to a straight out shoot out the BA's can do it better than codex marine TBH, still not their strongest build but my point is their fire power is not to be underestimated

 

I totally agree! Now BAs does what BAs does best! (or would be Groo? ;) )

Though...on a completley different note..I thought it was the Dark Angels that were supposed to be the fast moving guerilla fighter and expert pilot types. So do you guys think they will give Dark Angels Fast vehicles and hit and run?

[Priest33]

I for one hope so, as DA as they are is a rather boreing army. Plus it fits fluff wise.. and they should have some old school tech as well.

[Morticon]

I have a running friendly feud with one of my best mates who plays wolves(Level on BnC).

Him and I are now 3-2 - him leading by one.

 

Wolves are amazing. I'm a huge fan.

If I wasnt so mad into my BA, i'd be a wolves player.

 

And again- Decoy summed it up really well. BA went from being an "easy play" army in 3rd ed to a simplified but more tactical army in 4th to a crazy tactical army in 5th.

Small mistakes will cost us games.