Isryion Posted June 8, 2010 Share Posted June 8, 2010 The fact that 'the Captain doesn't even matter because he's not a worthwhile choice anyway' is the whole reason why it is an issue. Of course the Captain should be a worthwhile choice! The problem with the captain issue is that I just don't see what would actually make them worth taking without a drastic reduction in cost, and still, I'm not really convinced people would take them. Access to all of the oft mentioned missing equipment, or even Rites of Battle, probably doesn't beat what a reclusiarch gives for his 130 points or the role a librarian fills in the army. I'd also say that the Captain isn't a poor choice, it's just that the other choices are much better. I think he's fair for his cost, but he just looks overpriced due to the rest of the HQ. Overall, the Codex is very well balanced as far as the rules are concerned, with a variety of options to build the army. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/203517-how-do-you-like-the-codex-over-the-pdf/page/2/#findComment-2427932 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted June 8, 2010 Share Posted June 8, 2010 While I love the awsomeness that is Mephiston now, I have to agree with you I would of rather seen him not quite so buff but able to join a squad if he wasnt buffed he would be like dante , not realy worth taking. no one needs a 200+points character to add to a unit and transport , because uber unit builds dont realy work well for meq , even if BA transports move faster. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/203517-how-do-you-like-the-codex-over-the-pdf/page/2/#findComment-2427964 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted June 8, 2010 Share Posted June 8, 2010 To make a Captain work? Make him better and more expensive. But better in ways which actually are worth it. In the BA meta you'd have to make him worth while in reference to their abilities. The simplest way would be upgrades like the Space Wolf Sagas. So being able to give him individually Heroic Intervention or even Preferred Enemy for x points. The Chaplain is for buffing units, but the Captain could just be a really good addition to a unit. If you could give him HI or PE plus a Relic Blade I would certainly consider taking Sanguinary Guard or Vanguard Vets. As it stands those two units don't punch hard enough for their cost. Access to a Relic Blade would have been a good start though. And 2+ Artificer Armour should've been a no brainer. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/203517-how-do-you-like-the-codex-over-the-pdf/page/2/#findComment-2428006 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Lord_Of_Angels Posted June 8, 2010 Share Posted June 8, 2010 with the captain issue, i would have given them a special rule like mounted assault that allowed you to take assault squads as troops and moved them back to fast attack. That might have made them worth using. A special close combat weapon option would have been nice as well(C:SW get frost blades, C:SM get relic blades)something as simple as a power weapon that gives +1 attack, +2 if coupled with an additional CC weapon would still be deadly when combined furious charge. The only other thing I could complain about is there is alot of stuff competing for the same slots Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/203517-how-do-you-like-the-codex-over-the-pdf/page/2/#findComment-2428491 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Priest33 Posted June 8, 2010 Share Posted June 8, 2010 ??? assault squads are troops already... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/203517-how-do-you-like-the-codex-over-the-pdf/page/2/#findComment-2428674 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isryion Posted June 9, 2010 Share Posted June 9, 2010 ??? assault squads are troops already... Yeah, that limitation would have frustrated a lot of people I think. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/203517-how-do-you-like-the-codex-over-the-pdf/page/2/#findComment-2428731 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitefireinferno Posted June 9, 2010 Share Posted June 9, 2010 I think he means they should go to FA and the way to get them as troops is to take a Captan with a JP to make RAS troops which is just a bad plan fright from the get go. My capt..uh Chapter master costs 160 points is always present and has always made his points back lol Guess who it is. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/203517-how-do-you-like-the-codex-over-the-pdf/page/2/#findComment-2428736 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivanzypher Posted June 9, 2010 Share Posted June 9, 2010 I'm pretty happy with the new dex, although there are a few niggles. Mainly the whole Captain debacle. I really can't see a use for them right now, they are just so meh compared to the Reclusiarch and the Librarian. Thing is, i hate the idea of an army led by a librarian, thats a Captains job. Libbies and chappies should be a supporting role imo, while the captain leads the force. I think to make him viable they should have ditched the Reclusiarch, the whole reason they nerfed chappies/libbies down to 2 wounds etc. was so that the captain had a use, typical GW contradicting their own ideas. Also giving the Captain Rites of Battle again would have helped, and as someone mentioned, the ability to take saga-esque Heroic Intervention etc. would have been awesome. Also the Librarians super melee powers seem a bit silly to me, I mean, with potentially 7 str 10 attacks, he wipes the floor with a Captain. The main other problem for me is GW making tasty new models for SG/DC and making them lame in game, thats the exact opposite of what they normally do(ie. making the new models ridiculously good so everyone needs to buy them-Trygon for example). Doesn't make any sense. Also, I want a damn Stormraven model! How many people would have bought one just because its the coolest thing ever? They would have made a killing. I agree about Red Thirst aswell, utterly useless, who doesn't take priests anyway? let's see, a very small chance to gain an ability i already have on any unit that might benefit from it? in exchange for Combat Tactics you say? Brilliant idea Mr Ward. But yeah, overall I'm happy with it, especially marines with the Priest bubble, feels like actually playing an army of Space Marines, not pansies in power armour. Also, of course Dante is an expert at running away, how else would he have lived so long? :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/203517-how-do-you-like-the-codex-over-the-pdf/page/2/#findComment-2429182 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Chris Posted June 9, 2010 Share Posted June 9, 2010 I love the new codex. Lots of background and nice pictures make it compare well with the pdf. I miss the quotes from Dante etc and the map of Baal. I am not a tournament player, and lots of the posts since the Codex came out have left me cold. I don't think the be-all and end-all of a codex is how good it is at beating up teenagers at your local game store. It has a function for imaginative adventure gaming, arguably its primary function if the WD battle write ups are to be believed. Clearly the captains are in the codex because the chapter has captains. Mostly they would be leading the sorts of forces we are using. So if you are running a story, or a campaign or recreating a historical battle, or you want a role-play like character of your own, you will design a captain who suits you or the story. Not every skirmish of 40 men is going to have Robert E Lee or Napoleon or Iron Mike Tyson or Errol Flynn leading it. With the pdf everyone on B&C used Dante, Cobulo and assault marines in a rhino. I never though this was the spirit of the blood angels, and the new codex has made jumpackers more likely, with the rhinos for allowing the tactical marines to keep up with them. The DC should not be controllable, according to their background, another mistake the Codex has fixed. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/203517-how-do-you-like-the-codex-over-the-pdf/page/2/#findComment-2429341 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted June 9, 2010 Share Posted June 9, 2010 Yes, but your argument does not preclude Captains actually being an attractive and useful choice, as their equivalent is in the Space Wolf codex. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/203517-how-do-you-like-the-codex-over-the-pdf/page/2/#findComment-2429397 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimson Devil Posted June 9, 2010 Share Posted June 9, 2010 Comparing the HQs of the Space Wolves and Blood Angels doesn't work. The codexes have different priorities. The SW list is far more focused on the Heroic sagas and personalities of the chapter. Your characters don't define the BAs so much as reflect it's character. Besides we didn't get off scott free. The SWs lost a lot of power in its characters in the new dex. Compare the stat lines between the recent and older codexes. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/203517-how-do-you-like-the-codex-over-the-pdf/page/2/#findComment-2429564 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted June 9, 2010 Share Posted June 9, 2010 Comparing the HQs of the Space Wolves and Blood Angels doesn't work. The codexes have different priorities. The SW list is far more focused on the Heroic sagas and personalities of the chapter. Your characters don't define the BAs so much as reflect it's character. Besides we didn't get off scott free. The SWs lost a lot of power in its characters in the new dex. Compare the stat lines between the recent and older codexes. The comparision is fair in the fact that the wolf lord is a viable HQ while there is almost no reason to ever take a captain when a reclusiarch is pretty much always a better choice. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/203517-how-do-you-like-the-codex-over-the-pdf/page/2/#findComment-2429579 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimson Devil Posted June 9, 2010 Share Posted June 9, 2010 But hasn't that always been the case? The BAs have captains because all chapters have them, but they have never been important in the army list. And I don't think that will ever change. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/203517-how-do-you-like-the-codex-over-the-pdf/page/2/#findComment-2429621 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted June 9, 2010 Share Posted June 9, 2010 That is no excuse for that remaining so. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/203517-how-do-you-like-the-codex-over-the-pdf/page/2/#findComment-2429643 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isryion Posted June 9, 2010 Share Posted June 9, 2010 Comparing the HQs of the Space Wolves and Blood Angels doesn't work. The codexes have different priorities. The SW list is far more focused on the Heroic sagas and personalities of the chapter. Your characters don't define the BAs so much as reflect it's character. Besides we didn't get off scott free. The SWs lost a lot of power in its characters in the new dex. Compare the stat lines between the recent and older codexes. The comparision is fair in the fact that the wolf lord is a viable HQ while there is almost no reason to ever take a captain when a reclusiarch is pretty much always a better choice. This is more of function of the reclusiarch being so points effective, though, wouldn't you agree? Rather than the captain being actually too expensive. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/203517-how-do-you-like-the-codex-over-the-pdf/page/2/#findComment-2429660 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted June 9, 2010 Share Posted June 9, 2010 It's the fact you get such a large bonus for an equivalent of 15 points. They could have made the Captain more attractive in ways which relate to the Blood Angels' playstyle. It's not the points issue, as people regularly take 240pt Wolf Lords in the SW dex. It's how good they are. And the Captains are like 2 plain scoops of vanilla ice cream, when the Reclusiarch is those same 2 scoops with several different toppings thrown in for the price of just chocolate sprinkles. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/203517-how-do-you-like-the-codex-over-the-pdf/page/2/#findComment-2429702 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isryion Posted June 9, 2010 Share Posted June 9, 2010 It's the fact you get such a large bonus for an equivalent of 15 points. They could have made the Captain more attractive in ways which relate to the Blood Angels' playstyle. It's not the points issue, as people regularly take 240pt Wolf Lords in the SW dex. It's how good they are. And the Captains are like 2 plain scoops of vanilla ice cream, when the Reclusiarch is those same 2 scoops with several different toppings thrown in for the price of just chocolate sprinkles. Yep, that's what I was getting at, though. It's not the captain as much as the fact that a reclusiarch is so cost effective. I disagree, though, that giving our captain more options would necessarily make him a more feasible choice. Space Wolves Codex is not BA and I'd have a hard time paying 240 points for a captain in an already expensive model list like the BAs. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/203517-how-do-you-like-the-codex-over-the-pdf/page/2/#findComment-2429747 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted June 9, 2010 Share Posted June 9, 2010 That is MY point though. The options you would have to give him would need to be relevant to the way the BA play. A Captain who could pay for Heroic Intervention, for example, would become very useful and also make VV a much more attractive choice. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/203517-how-do-you-like-the-codex-over-the-pdf/page/2/#findComment-2429752 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HsojVvad Posted June 21, 2010 Author Share Posted June 21, 2010 I am not very familiar with the rules. A few people complained that 2 of your guys are not characters, or IC's, Mephistion and someone else. Why would that be such a big deal? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/203517-how-do-you-like-the-codex-over-the-pdf/page/2/#findComment-2441066 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isryion Posted June 21, 2010 Share Posted June 21, 2010 Tycho and Mephiston cannot join units because they are not ICs. Technically, this makes them units unto themselves. Tycho is likely a misprint, oversight, or last minute change, but Mephiston is probably supposed to be on his own and, for the most part, he can handle it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/203517-how-do-you-like-the-codex-over-the-pdf/page/2/#findComment-2441071 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted June 21, 2010 Share Posted June 21, 2010 I love the new codex. 0b Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/203517-how-do-you-like-the-codex-over-the-pdf/page/2/#findComment-2441083 Share on other sites More sharing options...
B1ad3st0rm Posted June 21, 2010 Share Posted June 21, 2010 I love the new dex. So many things to play around with so far out of the few games I have had it's been wicked. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/203517-how-do-you-like-the-codex-over-the-pdf/page/2/#findComment-2441182 Share on other sites More sharing options...
daboarder Posted June 21, 2010 Share Posted June 21, 2010 Apart from a few quirks here and there, where I would have done things differently (such as making an Honour guard into an Honour guard not a comand squad, preferably an actual hybrid of both) I really like the new codex, My old JP list got alot more effective without much change baring the swap of HQ's and inclusion of sanguiniunary priests. Something that would have been really cool would have been the option to give sternguard JP's so that they could opperate as mobile support. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/203517-how-do-you-like-the-codex-over-the-pdf/page/2/#findComment-2441254 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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