Lemartes Over Normal Chaplain

[mysteriousmaskedmystery]

I've run all my games with a Reclusiarch up until last weekend. I decided to try out Lemartes instead of the Reclusiarch. Lemartes is nice, and once he gets a wound he's a beast, but he's tied to the squad. The Reclusiarch has saved me numerous times by breaking off from the Death Company and jumping to the side of a Leman Russ or Vindicator to Infernus pistol it to death. Points wise, my Reclusiarch is only 5points less than Lemartes, but he has an extra wound. This lets him stay around longer to keep swinging. While he may not have 7 attacks charging, he does have 5, a really small meltagun, and that extra wound. At first I found that just having the Reclusiarch with a Jump pack and not the squad seemed silly and lame but him breaking off to tie up a squad, annihilate some long fangs, or shoot something else really helps. My last game against Space Furries I had a Vindicator coming at me with a Gray Hunters squad behind it. Breaking off the Reclusiarch allowed him to nuke the Vindicator with his Infernus Pistol so that the death company could charge the Gray hunters behind it. This saved my DC from raging into the vindicator, and in doing so, waste their assault phase. They didn't get the re-rolls to hit and wound, but they got 8 power weapon wounds and 6 normal. So that turn I got the Vindicator, and the Gray Hunters, instead of only the former. I personally stick with the Reclusiarch like I did before. I'm not trying to say Lemartes is a bad choice, once he gets a wound and charges to get 7 attacks with re-rolls to hit and wound at Strength 6 he's nothing to scoff at, I just get better use out of the Reclusiarch. The one thing I dislike, but never had a problem with thus far, is that the Reclusiarch can't hide in a rhino with the DC when he has a jump-pack. This is a moot point however because the Rhino keeps the DC from just running up mid-field to die.

 

i like this, it's especially useful when your DC have to charge some useless unit but you really, really need to attack something else, the chaplain can get in there on his own or with another squad to tie them up for a while.

[SamaNagol]

If the Grey Hunters were behind the Vindicator, surely you could have just jumped 12" directly towards the Vindicator, straight over it, then charged the Grey Hunters behind?

[toaae]

If the Grey Hunters were behind the Vindicator, surely you could have just jumped 12" directly towards the Vindicator, straight over it, then charged the Grey Hunters behind?

 

Rage makes you move directly towards the closest enemy unit in LOS. Not over it or past it.

[SamaNagol]

Doesn't say you have to stop once you reach it. You must move TOWARDS it. Not that you must reduce your displacement from the closest enemy unit by as much as possible.

[toaae]

Doesn't say you have to stop once you reach it. You must move TOWARDS it. Not that you must reduce your displacement from the closest enemy unit by as much as possible.

 

Moving past it is moving away from it. Yes, it doesn't explicitly state that you have to "reduce your displacement" or whatever, but it's pretty clear that you have to move towards the closest enemy unit. Towards it. You can't jump it or go around it, as you must move towards it.

[SamaNagol]

That is moving towards it.

[Pcm979]

But the Vindicator is the nearest enemy. I think. Right?

[SamaNagol]

If it is a straight line between the Grey hunters, the vindicator and a unit of DC with Jump Packs, you can entirely legally move towards the vindicator, over the top of it and finish on the other side then assault the grey hunters.

[Deus_Sanguinius]

If the Grey Hunters were in 6" charge range it was totaly legal to charge them instead of the Vindicator because "rage" only makes you move towards the nearest enemy. You don't need to charge. So attacking the Hunters was absolutely correct if they were in range.

[Chairman_woo]

They have it built into their profile because of the jump packs. They don't get it if they drop pod in.

 

ignore this, this is wrong. this may be the correct RAI answer, but it's not fit for RAW arguments. everyone knows a marine with JP has DS, but RAS doesn't have DS listed in its special rules does it?

 

Not shure what you are trying to prove here, RAS have the DOA rule in their profile and shureley the only possible reason is that they have JP's as starting wargear? (unless you are arguing that DOA only applies to units with DOA in their profile and not just by virtue of having jp's)

 

Maybe I'm missing something but I cant quite make sense of what you are saying, are you suggesting RAS have DOA listed on their profile for a reason other than they have JP's as starting wargear? GW can be inconsistent insofar as many units have special rules by virtue of wargear or unit type that are not specifically mentioned in their profile such as beasts getting fleet or JP's confering deep strike as you say, but I cant see how that effects the RAW.

 

Are you arguing that DOA on RAS might apply even when they dont have JP's? (cant really see that one working, but I'll happily consider an argument to that effect)

 

Did I miss something vital? I'm not trying to start an arguement or anything just curious as to what you meant.

[SamaNagol]

DoA only works if the Marines themselves enter via Deep Strike. Not the vehicle they are in.

[Isryion]

They have it built into their profile because of the jump packs. They don't get it if they drop pod in.

 

ignore this, this is wrong. this may be the correct RAI answer, but it's not fit for RAW arguments. everyone knows a marine with JP has DS, but RAS doesn't have DS listed in its special rules does it?

 

Ok, but the backup RAW is as Sama suggested. The Drop Pod (or Land Raider) don't have Decent of Angels, the RAS do. It's also pretty clear that Decent applies just to jump packs. Oh, and nice start to your post:P.

[Dark Legionnare]

If the Grey Hunters were behind the Vindicator, surely you could have just jumped 12" directly towards the Vindicator, straight over it, then charged the Grey Hunters behind?

That's if I even had fielded Jump-Pack DC yes, but as is, that's too expensive for my taste. I'd much rather give them 2 or 3 power swords over jumps packs. In this case the DC wouldn't have been able to assault the Gray Hunters because the Vindi was in the way, so I decided to take my chances and the Reclusiarch pulled through. And I'm pretty sure, like someone said, that they have to move towards the nearest enemy unit, the Vindi even if they had Jump-packs, not behind or around it. If figure it's like moving into close combat in the assault phase, you move toward the enemy unit you don't wrap around it, your run headlong and slam into their lines, or in this case, stop an inch away from their hull. I wish they could assault with the packs, ie. jump over stuff in the assault phase, and slam into the enemy; then I might buy them jump packs. :)

[Mattsama]

It's a judgment call. I always move my back modles first anyway, so as they start piling in, I would be forced to move "around" the Vindy as it is. If thats wrong, correct me. And if that fails...

 

DC are fleet... Run past the Vindy... Rage doesn't govern ny moves made in the Shooting phase.

[SamaNagol]

DC are not fleet. Only the Dreadnoughts have Fleet

[Mattsama]

;) :o :o Uh oh....

 

:P

[Firedrake28]

DC are fleet... Run past the Vindy... Rage doesn't govern ny moves made in the Shooting phase.

 

Actually, it does. You need to run toward the closest visible enemy.

[Burningblood]

Since when are DC fleet? DC DREADS ARE FLEET NOT DC. Can someone please close this post as it has devolved into a stupid RAW/RAI argument that is already solved, covered, and accepted by anyone with sense.

[Isryion]

DC are fleet... Run past the Vindy... Rage doesn't govern ny moves made in the Shooting phase.

 

Actually, it does. You need to run toward the closest visible enemy.

 

 

Yep, you are correct on that one. It says so right in the Rage Rule.

 

And, to an above question, DC Dreads and Tycho are fleet but not regular DC.

[SamaNagol]

Rage only governs the Movement phase

[Isryion]

Rage only governs the Movement phase

 

Reread the Rage rule (and I'll post it below). When I saw this discussion, I thought the same as you but then I reread the rule just to be sure:

 

"In the Shooting phase, they are free to decide whether to run, but if they do they must run towards the closest visible enemy."

 

Hard to misinterpret that, but like me, I'm guessing you missed it.

[stinkenheim]

units subject to rage need to move towards the closest visible enemy in their movement phas.

in the shooting phase they can shoot who ever they wish, or they can run. if they run they go towards th nearest visible enemy unit.

in the assault phase they are free to assault any unit in range, but if they consolodate then they do so towards the nerest visible unit.

 

to me, Lemartes is hard. Hes more expenisve obviously, but that is far out wieghed by the fact that he cannot bepicked out in combat and so is more likely to survive in hard battles.

however, unless you are taking JP DC, or have invested in converting up a Stormraven i wouldn't take him as he is unable to ride in most transports meaning your footslogging DC are likely to get shot up very quickly, or worse, forced to chase after the odd landspeeder or bike squad.

[Dark Legionnare]

however, unless you are taking JP DC, or have invested in converting up a Stormraven i wouldn't take him as he is unable to ride in most transports meaning your footslogging DC are likely to get shot up very quickly, or worse, forced to chase after the odd landspeeder or bike squad.

 

That's my main point for Taking the Reclusiarch. so I can have the DC hide in a transport and not run straight up the field to get shot to hell. I also have him do individual things, like snipe tanks if they present it, but more often than not he's behind the LRC or Rhino hiding until the DC pop out, then he joins them, does damage, and splits off again if need be. Bottom line, you take Lemartes, you have to have a Stormraven, points that could be spent elsewhere probably for a bigger bonus, to keep the DC from running at the nearest unit and quite possibly get kited around by aforementioned bikes and landspeeders.

[Isryion]

I agree Dark Legionnare. A reclusiarch's flexibility and ability to move between units actually makes him much better and prevents him from being locked in the unit like Lemartes. A lot of the time, Lemartes will be a destructive force as part of the DC, but I'd wager that in the more important games, that's when people will have wished they had the reclusiarch.

[xa0s]

I had a reccy as the HQ and Lemmy within my DC (expensive!), but man... me and my gaming buddy coudln't believe how easily Lemmy and the DC squad was able to decimate -everything- on his Necron army (fortunately, the monolith hasn't had any success) that the game ended on turn 3 with his army completely wiped out using the dividing rule posted on gameworkshop.com. bottom line, the re-rolls to hit -AND- to wound was... golly-mo next to assault of 4 rolls per person.