Assault Squad vs Tactical Squads

[Drachnon]

I often play low points games (1000 points or less) and find that I don't always have the points available to field the anti tank power required against some armies. Which is why I want to use my troop choices as tank killers.

 

I'm already ruling out the death company because I find it too point heavy for low point games and the scouts can only field a missile launcher at BS3 which also doesn't seem like the firepower I need.

 

This brings me to Tactical Squads and Assault Squads (with Razorback). Both seem to have their advantages and disadvantages. So I was wondering if anyone could help me choosing between the two.

 

Tactical Squads Advantages:

Can be separated into two combat squads for claiming multiple objectives.

Lot of extra wounds before the lascannon dies.

More bolter fire.

 

Disadvantages:

Full sized squad with weapons can be costly and you have to make them full size before they even get any options.

Less mobile then assault squads.

 

Assault Squads advantages:

5 assault marines with Twin-linked lascannon razorback is slightly cheaper then 10 marines with lascannon. While for the purpose of tank hunting they are more reliable since the razorback can move and fire and the tactical marines might have their LoS blocked. Also twin-linked grants greater to hit chance.

Very mobile (I personally like mobile armies over stand and shoot armies)

 

Disadvantages:

Fewer troops, sometimes you just really need numbers. While in close combat tactical marines have 1 attack less then assault marines but when fielded in double their numbers this difference disappears quickly.

Since its low points I usually don't field more then a Baal Predator or Dreadnought in form of armoured targets. Making the Razorbacks a magnet for whatever anti tank weaponry my opponent has.

 

So anyone has any things I might need to consider as well or perhaps have experience with these choices to help me make a decision? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[SamaNagol]

6 men RAS in Razorbacks >> Tactical Squads.

[Yobael]

Well a rozarback melta combination is always a good one, even though i prefer assault squads with melta bombs. but that's just me

[mysteriousmaskedmystery]

i like lazorbacks and azz-cannons, for a small game, a tactical squad can be very useful, take the ten man tac in a lazorback? five man squad with melta in the razor with the lascannon team sitting back. that should kill a lot of what you'll see in a 1000 point game.

[toaae]

6 men RAS in Razorbacks >> Tactical Squads.

 

Tactical Squads >> 6 men RAS in Razorbacks

 

To each their own, I suppose.

 

The 5 man combat squad with the lascannon is more survivable than an AV11 vehicle. Plus, it's a good squad for holding an objective in your deployment zone, and the other combat squad can be good for lending fire support to your assault units, and holding the objectives you take in the middle of the field.

 

I run 2 Tactical Squads with Lascannons, Plasmaguns, and Razorbacks. They've been excellent and very reliable for what I wanted them to do.

[SamaNagol]

More survivable to what exactly? Cos 5 infantry models isn't very survivable to being assaulted or small arms fire.

 

And also the 6 men in the Razorback are cheaper than a full Tactical Squad. Can redeploy 12" and still fire that Lascannon, which is Twin Linked. And contest objectives within 18".

 

The Razorback squads are very good.

[toaae]

More survivable to what exactly? Cos 5 infantry models isn't very survivable to being assaulted or small arms fire.

 

Anti-tank guns, which everyone and their mother takes plenty of, even at small points levels. And a Razorback isn't very survivable against assault with AV10, either. Add to the fact that most "small arms fire" would require that the firing unit be within 12", and it's pretty obvious why 5 Tactical marines are more survivable than an AV 11/11/10 vehicle.

 

And it's two scoring units compared to 1. I'm not making a case for why the Tactical squad is the superior choice at all times. It's just nowhere near as outclassed as everyone here likes to make it out to be.

[SamaNagol]

Using a dedicated anti tank weapon to take out a 40pt Transport isn't a problem by my standards. There's still a 6 man squad with a Meltagun inside. Close combat is not much of an issue because my Razors ALWAYS move at 12".

 

The fact you get the 35pt discount and they are Fast means for me, I will always go for them over a Tactical squad.

[Citizen _Of_BAAL]

I must say that I am a big fan of Tactical squads. Hardly ever ran assault squads in the PDF 'Codex'. But it should also be noted that I never relied on them for anti tank support.

In my last game I wanted to try some devastates for anti tank fire. I was very disappointed. The 4 Lascannons did nothing. My librarion with blood lance did more and the only thing that was able to take out a Lemin Russ was a 5 man Assault squad with a melta and PF. They took out a 2 tank squad in one turn. 8 lascannon shots did noting the 2 previous turns (4 per turn). My lesson was the 270 points I spent on a 10 man squad with 4 lascannons would have been better off spent else where. I found they were not able to fire some turns due to line of sight issues.

 

The assault squad was able to hit what I wanted when I want it to.

Assault squads for 1PF, 1 Meltagun and a TL Lascannon is cheaper then getting the similar equipment in a tactical squad (however is is 5 less wounds)

 

In the end its all personal preference. Personally I can't stand the static deployment of heavy weapons on troops (tac/dev)

[Burningblood]

For a small points game why not a full 10 man assault squad in jump packs with melta weapons? you can deepstrike them in combat squads to take out armor pretty handily.

[voi shet magir]

6 men RAS in Razorbacks >> Tactical Squads.

 

Tactical Squads >> 6 men RAS in Razorbacks

 

Werd. Small ras are nice for squeezing points, but sometimes I'd rather have bolters inside, esp option for combi-bolter, and I'd rather have that other combat squad on a hill somewhere.

 

Plus, it's a good squad for holding an objective in your deployment zone

 

It's good for /watching/ a home-objective. Give them a plasma cannon, and the sergeant for ld, and place the objectives on open ground. If they are in cover and off the objecive, they draw less fire. There is no point in going anywhere near objectives until turn five. The razor-half can zip over and actually take stuff, if it's still alive, and it should be since its anti transport capacity is more of a threat in the early turns.

 

 

40pt transport

 

the heck codex are you using?

 

For a small points game why not a full 10 man assault squad in jump packs with melta weapons? you can deepstrike them in combat squads to take out armor pretty handily.

 

'cause then you spend the whole game chasing stuff with one gun and a half-range infernus pistol, taking templates. They /have/ meltas, but they can't really do everything.

[Isryion]

I've had success with my 5 man anti tank squads of assault troops, more, in fact, than my tacticals.

[voi shet magir]

they are good, but not good enough to make las/autocannons, missiles, or other melta platforms obsolete.

 

So the title is about killing tanks, and troop squads are not for killing anything. They engage and threaten, and to be effective at that they have a good chance of killing things, but they are there to give special choices the space to actually accomplish things. Shooting troops sit in cover in the center of the board, so people can't just have free rein to transit from one side to the other without getting a chunk taken out of them. Assault squads get in enemies' faces so they have to stop shooting at Mephiston and deal with the assault squad.

 

Relying on troops choices to get anything done requires more troops than you want can take. To make a serious effort using troops to take out a bunch of Leman Russ, get a rhino and hide attack bikes behind it.

[Isryion]

they are good, but not good enough to make las/autocannons, missiles, or other melta platforms obsolete.

 

So the title is about killing tanks, and troop squads are not for killing anything. They engage and threaten, and to be effective at that they have a good chance of killing things, but they are there to give special choices the space to actually accomplish things. Shooting troops sit in cover in the center of the board, so people can't just have free rein to transit from one side to the other without getting a chunk taken out of them. Assault squads get in enemies' faces so they have to stop shooting at Mephiston and deal with the assault squad.

 

Relying on troops choices to get anything done requires more troops than you want can take. To make a serious effort using troops to take out a bunch of Leman Russ, get a rhino and hide attack bikes behind it.

 

 

I guess I disagree. Troop choices can sometimes be the cheapest unit (or at least cost effective) in terms of being equipped for any role, especially space marines. In terms of tank hunting, you can actually build a squad to do just that, but it is also flexible enough to fill other roles. I do build redundancy in my list, so they aren't the sole method of doing so. But, as in the case of the OP, if he is choosing between a tactical squad or assault squad that is equipped to deal with tanks, they better option is the assault squad, imo.

[SamaNagol]

6 men in a Razorback with a Fist, Meltagun and TL Assault Cannon can take on most armoured vehicles. Take 2 or 3 of those and you are onto a winner.

[Bravo Leader]

It's difficult to actually say which unit is better. It entirely depends on the terrain, race, mission, play style of the opponent. U'll find that u'll probably do better with anti tank RAS in battlefield loaded with terrain as u jump around and say hello to rear armour with melta weapons but risk getting chewed with your opponent "support unit" (which i usualy do have with my tanks). Whereas in a less dense battlefield...Tac with lascannon will do wonders in comparison to Ras with melta but than again if the tank is so precious to me...i'll hide it behind the best cover away from your anti tank Tac and pick off ur other venerable targets since ur tac lacks the mobility. My only advice for u is try to think like your opponent, if it gives grief to the opponent fielding whatever your choices are..then u probably fielded it right.

[Ash]

Why not a rhino with pintle mounted storm bolter ? with two shooters firing through the top hatch ? you get more guys in the thing than a razor you still get to shoot at least one heavy weapon out the top its cheaper, same armor, use the saved points to buff up the squad ?

[SamaNagol]

You can only fire a heavy weapon out the top if you dont move. And if you don't move you are dead.

[Khorneeq]

Personally I'm using Assult Squad armed with melta gun and inferno pistol in Razorback as anti tank, but they need to get close.

I know that inferno pistol are costy, but single melta shot misses too often so thats the way I'm opening tanks in smaller games.

Tactical Squad can shoot at distant targets from the start of the game, but their bolter are designed as anti infantry so I'm using them to shoot infantry.

[Quantra]

My staple unit is 10 man RAS with 2 melta guns and a power fist. I will then usually take a priest to go with them too. I start with them on the board and hop them across the table in a typical fashion. These guys have eaten many tanks since I started using them. I wouldn't leave for battle without them!

 

I feel that a larger 10 man squad with FNP can outlast a 5/6 man squad and a razorback. As for the tacs, I think for anti tank they are just too static. In my experience the safest way to deal with tanks is with melta weapons. To use melta effectively you have to get close, the jump packs help a lot. When you are close enough with a melta gun then you are in charge range too so the fist acts as an extra back up.

 

I guess at the end of the day though the best advice i can give is to try out different variants of RAS/RB's/Tacs and see what works for you because I think they all have the potential to kill tanks but you might find that one method suits you, your army and your play style better than another.

[Isryion]

My staple unit is 10 man RAS with 2 melta guns and a power fist. I will then usually take a priest to go with them too. I start with them on the board and hop them across the table in a typical fashion. These guys have eaten many tanks since I started using them. I wouldn't leave for battle without them!

 

I feel that a larger 10 man squad with FNP can outlast a 5/6 man squad and a razorback. As for the tacs, I think for anti tank they are just too static. In my experience the safest way to deal with tanks is with melta weapons. To use melta effectively you have to get close, the jump packs help a lot. When you are close enough with a melta gun then you are in charge range too so the fist acts as an extra back up.

 

I guess at the end of the day though the best advice i can give is to try out different variants of RAS/RB's/Tacs and see what works for you because I think they all have the potential to kill tanks but you might find that one method suits you, your army and your play style better than another.

 

 

You can't put 10+ a priest in a rhino. It would be 9+priest.

 

Other than that, I agree with you.

[Roachboy]

He's using jump packs on his 10 man RAS

 

Quantra, I use the same RAS loadout and i 100% agree with you

[Isryion]

Yep, you're right. Don't know why I missed that. I do the exact same thing. My army is typically based around 2x10 RAS with jump packs, meltas, and a priesst.

[Brother-Captain Devlonir]

I'd say (and it is exactly what im using for my 1000pts matches as well), a 10 man Tactical Squad with plasma gun, missile launcher and power fist in an TLAC Razorback.

 

Sergeant goes into the Razorback, Plasma and Missile Launcher stay somewhere in cover and shoot at vehicles/monsters where they need to. A TLACcan both take on light and medium armored vehicles and troops with equal success, and the Sergeant can jump out there with his 4 man support for any counter charging of whatever enemies come your way or take the fight to the enemy himself.

Add a Sang priest in the Razorback or on the Special/Heavy weapon team and you got an all-round troop choice ready to hold your ground and kick some ass when needed to.

 

Diversity in small squads is, in my opinion, the key to succesful low point matches. And a RAS just misses that diversity in my opinion.

[SamaNagol]

5 man RAS with Melta and Fist in a TLAC Razorback is cheaper than the equivalent Tactical Squad version. So I can fit in more toys in my list at 1000pts than you.