How to argue for Mephiston?

[Theikos]

I find myself in a debate among my play group. I need to know:

 

Is Mephiston too much for opponents to handle?

 

Allow me to explain my situation. I play Warhammer 40k with a small group of friends. Their armies are: (Guard, Templar, Eldar, Dark Angels, Orks, Chaos). As a group we tend to be a bit competitive amongst each other, but overall we do try to make the game fun for everyone involved. We constantly debate the more extreme elements of Warhammer 40k and try to come to decisions that promote a healthy metagame. A few examples of decisions we've made as a group:

 

-Our Guard player will not play a Leafblower style list.

-Our Chaos player will not play a Lash list.

-(While we do not have a Space Wolf player) We will never play Jaws of the World Wolf as we find it too powerful.

 

We used to play at about 2000 points, however when my codex was updated and I started playing 2000 points of Blood Angels, it proved to be very difficult for some of them to play against. As a solution we dropped down to 1500 points as our standard, feeling that it leveled the playing field a bit better, which I agreed to. I've also agreed not to play double vindicators at 1500 as we all feel that would be very difficult to face.

 

Those compromises aside, the current situation I find myself in is that the group is bringing up my choice of using Mephiston as something they are unable to deal with. I've played quite a few games against Eldar, Guard and Templar. The list is doing very well and Mephiston generally gets to munch on more than his value of points before biting the bullet.

 

Here is my current list at 1500:

 

Mephiston

 

Ras(10) Fist, Meltax2, Rhino, DB

Ras(5) Sword, Melta, Razorback, DB, TL Lascannon

Ras(5) Sword, Melta, Razorback, DB, TL Lascannon

 

Sanguinary Priest with Sword

 

Baal Predator, DB, FSC

Baal Predator, DB, HBS

Baal Predator, DB, HBS

 

Vindicator, DB

 

As you can see the list is basically lots of armor with Mephiston, which has a lot of synergy.

 

 

The main arguments I'm receiving about Mephiston are:

 

-He is too much for some/most armies to deal with at 1500. At 2000+ armies would be better equipped to encounter things like him.

 

-There is nothing like him in the game, meaning a small infantry model that behaves like one of the best monstrous creatures out there, who almost always goes first. (Too powerful)

 

-His high toughness, 5 wounds, armor save and feel no pain make him next to impossible to kill without using all of your anti-vehicle shooting, which with a cover save is still hardly a guarantee. He takes too many resources to kill with shooting.

 

-He forces my enemies to play in ways they do not want to play (dictates their board position, how they use their armies).

 

 

Now I don't necessarily disagree with my friends on this subject, Mephiston is a powerhouse for sure. I'm just not entirely certain that he is as broken as they feel he is. I've already made a few compromises to try and keep things fun, and if Mephiston is no fun to play against I would rather drop him than have no one to play with.

 

Have any of you found yourselves in similar situations? How do other BA players argue against these points? Should I drop Mephiston and work on a more straightforward list (remember these are my friends, not random folks)?

 

 

Thank you for your advice and comments brothers!

[TheHarrower]

It's cool that your group changes up the rules to have better games. I don't know your group or their dynamics. The truth is, some people just aren't good at the game. I would ask yourself if you guys keep making all of the changes to compensate for players that just aren't that good. It makes a lot more sense for your friends to adjust their lists and play up to you. If my group started doing stuff where we decided to drop the points on games down to 1500 just because I was winning a lot, I'd be a little annoyed. The other thing to consider is if you guys ever do tourneys, and you make all of these exceptions you will get wiped. Just my 2 cents. Sorry if this doesn't help.

[Brother Yorei]

i have to agree with theharrower. the goal is to get better and figure out how to beat these "uber" armies so you will be ready for tournament play.

[Quantra]

Mephiston is far from indestructable. I've played games where the opponent has no problem shooting enough ap 1/2 at him until he drops. I guess the points against him would be:

 

- Costs 250 points (which I think is a lot to put into any one model)

- Can't join other units so no ablative wounds

- Has no invulnerable save

- Can take his own wounds due to peril's from casting 3 times per turn

 

Yes he might be a beast but there are ways to deal with him. Charging him with large units with a power weapon or fist in there can do it as he will likely go first but he won't be able to kill more than 6 guys leaving the fist to smack him. TH/SS terminators will still always have a 3++ against his attacks so again likely enough will survive to take a big chunk out of him.

 

I see what your friends are saying about directing enough AT fire at him but I don't see that as any different from when a land raider full of TH/SS terminators rolls up to my front door.

 

With your list shown he is the only guy on the table and outside of a transport so I'm guessing you try and hide him behind one but i'd say that's another disadvantage as clever placement of the enemy would give LOS.

 

Also he doesn't have FNP as standard I'm guessing you are running a priest near him?

 

Finally as for forcing your opponent to play in a way they have not planned to or want to, isn't that the name of the game? I always thought that was part of the tactical side of 40k, forcing your opponent out of their comfort zone and causing them to react to what you are doing, surely no different to dropping a pod in their DZ on turn 1 forcing them to react to it before moving on. I feel without tactical decision like that 40k would become like top trumps, whoever has the better cards (models) wins?

 

At the end of the day nothing in 40k is unbeatable and I feel it should be up to your opponent to find a way to take care of Mephiston and when they do it will be a big 250 point dent in your army.

[Anarchyman99]

I'm not trying to troll you here but you talk about not Leafblowing and Lash lists.....and then your running AV13 Spam.....I really hate the powergaming thats going on every where any more. It's about how far you can bend the hell out of the list before noone will play you anymore.

[razcalking]

Well, I can only comment from the position of someone who was just destroyed single-handedly by Mephiston in a 1000-pt game.

 

Yes, he can be beat, but only if you have planned to take him on, as opposed to running a balanced list. If your group tends to run balanced lists so that every game will be a somewhat even/enjoyable game, then you should not use Mephiston.

 

If your group uses the latest powergaming/tournament lists, then by all means go for it.

 

Just my two cents.

[Theikos]

Thank you for the replies,

 

My group is not interested in playing at a tournament level, and we're all on the same footing skill wise.

 

I am a bit surprised that the list I'm using is being considered in the same grain as leafblower and the lash list... I'm not sure I see how having Four AV13 units is in the same realm as lists that take most of the control away from the opponent like leafblower (low leadership and pinning) and lash (forced movement) are supposed to, but again I'm not well versed in the tournament scene so maybe the list I play is something I should consider as unfair or unbalancing?

 

Our metagame is fairly mechanized. The guard player has at least 6 vehicles (2 Vendettas, 2 Chimeras, 2 Basilisks if I remember right). The chaos player uses a land raider, two rhinos, winged demon prince and a defiler, The orks are in battlewagons or have killa cans, etc... Obviously I have more than they do but our metagame is definately mechanized with anti-mech weapons everywhere.

 

For my part I'm more interested in the Mephiston debate at this point. If I end up dropping him then I would assume the high amount of tanks in my list becomes less of an issue because he's not out there taking the anti tank shots that the tanks normally do.

 

Again I appreciate the comments, I'm generally concerned about my impact on our metagame and in the end I want everyone to be happy. I'm just a little concerned because until now my army tended to fare poorly and now that I'm doing well I'm getting a lot of pushback for my choices.

 

Theikos

[Leonaides]

The only army there that might have a problem killing meph that I can think of would be Eldar, and all they have to do is take the wargear that makes his psychic tests on 3D6, then get lucky a couple of times with starcannons and the like. Or even jump him with a Wraithlord and a squad of banshees - no FNP, no 2+ armour, the wraithlord wounds on a 2, the banshees might get a wound or two if lucky, and all before he gets to attack becasue of the banshee masks...

 

TBH, he is easier to deal with in a 2k game, but I think your opponents are having trouble because they're treating him as a single model - the comparison with a squad of TH/SS terminators is rather a good one here. He's just as killable as a squad of termies, but presumably they're just not seeing him as a single model 'squad', but as a single model who takes a lot of killing.

[Morticon]

As far as this concept goes, i always get a bit irked/saddened/annoyed by it. But, I can see how people with limited resources and time dont wanna play armies that are not "fun" for them, though for me slowly changing your list to beat an uber list is half the fun..

 

HOOOWEVER, if all people are happy with it- then thats your guys decision and all its all good.

 

Im a competitive tourney player.

 

Mephiston is mental.

 

Hes not unbeatable, but, for pick-up, fun and generally enjoyable games, he's way too much. Id say if they hate lash/chimera spam/etc then doooont go Mephy.

[Daedalus Templarius]

So you used to lose, and now you win all the time?

Sounds good to me.

 

Av13 spam? really?

Just played a game against my father yesterday, he was running 5 leman russes, a chimera, a banewolf, and a manticore. I'd say that's some armor spam, but I still decimated him in our first game and was on the way to decimating him on the 2nd. Is that some kind of AVspam? Is 2 landraiders and a Stormraven AV14/12 spam?

 

I do know I love Stormravens now.

 

Meph would have been nice, I guess, but he doesn't have Blood Lance. My Furioso Lib did pretty well dropping out of my Stormraven and launching lances through side armor :)

[Walter Payton]

I am a bit surprised that the list I'm using is being considered in the same grain as leafblower and the lash list... I'm not sure I see how having Four AV13 units is in the same realm as lists that take most of the control away from the opponent like leafblower (low leadership and pinning) and lash (forced movement) are supposed to, but again I'm not well versed in the tournament scene so maybe the list I play is something I should consider as unfair or unbalancing?

 

AV13 spam is called having a mechanised army/an army with strong tanks, and that has been around since 1st ed. If people aren't prepared for it, that's their problem.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Your friends sound kind of lame to me.

 

0b

[Morticon]

Your friends sound kind of lame to me.

 

0b

 

BO I dont like the concept either :P But at least try help the guy out with what hes asking

[SamaNagol]

Why should the way other people play dictate how you build your army?

 

Just because they choose to intentionally avoid things in their Codicies, doesn't mean you are obligated to do so, nor does it give them a right to look down on you or dismiss your wins should you beat them. That is fascism.

[MadGreek]

Until your friends get the feel for Mephiston, or at least till they all get new Codex, you can play 2000 points and let play 2250 or so.

[Tame]

I'm in a similar situation.

 

I play with friends, and we couldn't care less about tournaments and competitive lists, we just want to have fun. So we put this very simple rule in place: if for some reason your list is too strong and you get too many easy wins, then change it.

 

The reason doesn't matter : overpowered unit, unbalanced lists, underskilled players: in the end, we just want to have fun playing each other. Being tabled every week isn't fun, and hell, tabling others every week without being challenged isn't either.

 

We play low points (750-1500) games, with less mech (you might think having 6+ tanks on the table is fun, we don't), more terrain and less badass special characters than most people, and we have fun that way. If my friends were to tell me Meph gives them trouble I'd say fine and try something else, as long as they obey the same rules it's fine by me.

[razcalking]

Another relevant question is this: Does your gaming group use a lot of named characters? If not, then Mephiston is probably not right for the environment.

 

Judging by some of the replies here, a lot of you seem like you've never played this game in a group of friends. Not just "40K friends", but people you actually see every day outside of the game. In situations where you're just playing this game to relax and have a good time, there definitely is a time and place to not use certain units that make the game less enjoyable for others.

[Theikos]

Another relevant question is this: Does your gaming group use a lot of named characters? If not, then Mephiston is probably not right for the environment.

 

Judging by some of the replies here, a lot of you seem like you've never played this game in a group of friends. Not just "40K friends", but people you actually see every day outside of the game. In situations where you're just playing this game to relax and have a good time, there definitely is a time and place to not use certain units that make the game less enjoyable for others.

 

Ork player has the jump infantry named guy.

Dark Angels play doublewing, so Azrael and Belial both

Chaos plays Abaddon at 2000 but not at 1500

Eldar, Guard and Templar all play their standard HQs

 

No one plays armies with Monstrous Creatures (Eldar is jetbikes, no Tyranids) so maybe that's why they are so unaccustomed to Mephiston.

 

Also thank you to everyone for replying, the discussions is quite helpful!

 

Theikos

[Whitefireinferno]

I would tell them to harden up and learn to deal with our beast but yeah that or just take the strongest things in everyone elses lists and tell them they cant be played like If I cant use Mephy nobody can use Psykers then and when they get pissy about the AV13 spam ban tanks ect But I would rather go with telling them to take a tablespoon of cement and harden the :mellow: up.

 

--WFI--

[SamaNagol]

Tell them how to kill him. Anything with AP2 means he gets no save whatsoever, unless he has cover. There should be plenty of that in IG lists

[Justicar Valius]

Landspeeder thyphoons. Say those words to your marine players will then be ok, but to me sounds like your friends need to all go cheese lists and take the vies of it's not cheese, it's using the codex to its best. I play 2 LRC at 1500 with pure DH, is that AV14 spam? eh probably but this is 5th, it's called a melta or lance weapon. Mephy is soooo overpowered oh my! So what? adapt, find a better list and better ways to kill him.

[the jeske]

No one plays armies with Monstrous Creatures (Eldar is jetbikes, no Tyranids) so maybe that's why they are so unaccustomed to Mephiston.

0_o how does one play chaos without MC and non shoty [leaf blower] IG ? could you give a sample [doesnt have to be precise] list of one or two of your friends.

 

as the pred+mef goes. If they play listed armies and they dont play the good builds[and with chaos at least that is rather limited] , fast moving scout tanks in a big on terrain table are a horror to play against [it is like playing nids in 4th ed city fight] , if all the armies are not mecha then they probably cant counter preds and mefiston at the same time with in 2 turns they have [if they start] to do it.

[Theikos]

No one plays armies with Monstrous Creatures (Eldar is jetbikes, no Tyranids) so maybe that's why they are so unaccustomed to Mephiston.

0_o how does one play chaos without MC and non shoty [leaf blower] IG ? could you give a sample [doesnt have to be precise] list of one or two of your friends.

 

Ah I stand corrected, my Chaos friend does play a winged demon prince. The IG player has normal troops with a Commisar, two vendettas with vets, two basilisks and two chimeras for his command structure. It's not exactly leafblower it's just a bunch of good IG stuff that works well... A massive amount of guns. We usually tend to tie when we play and he and I are generally evenly matched.

 

 

Theikos

[daboarder]

honestly I dont get the hype about mephy, hes a librarian who cant pick his powers, relies on them to actually do anything, has no jump pack, has no invulnerable and most importantly cant join a unit, its not that hard to nuke him in a turn, now I'm not saying he should have those things I'm just pointing out that he has a huge number of checks and balances within his rules. The only army I think might have trouble with him is tau do to a lack of psychic defence.

[stinkenheim]

Im disappointed to see some of the comments aimed at your group. At the end o teh day not every one plays or indeed wants to play tournament games. I certainly don't have much of an inclination to play in a tournament, not because i don't want to test myself but because from alot of the things i have seen it doesn't seem like an environment i would enjoy. I would much prefer the 'beer and pretzles' approach than powergame/cheese/spam lists.

As for mephiston, for me taking a 250pts character in such a small game is a no-no. not because of him being overpowered (i honestly don't think he is, hard yes but not op) but rather it is a hefty chunk of points to lay down.

Mephiston would suffer to plasma armed vets (3 plasmaguns, and i think the serg can take plasma pistol). That should be half his wounds gone at least in one turn of shooting. Likewise eldar starcannons would put a dent in his wounds especially a unit of warwalkers with 2 starcannons each (something like 18 shots each, thats harsh).

Basically each of your opponents should have reliable ways to defeat him without falling into the category of cheese lists.

 

One thing i would ask, what is a 'leafblower' list. Its the first time i have heard such a term?

As for someone who said if you win most of the time you should change you list, i disagree with that. I play 3kpts usually (its a size my friends feel comfortable with and presents different challenges to smaller pt game) and i win almost all the time with most of my armies. I don't play cheese lists, nor do i powergame. I play balanced lists with alot of units that i enjoy regardless of their performance. For example i will always include ratlings, mortars and griffons in my guard and almost every squad has flamers rather than other weapons. My gaurd also have just 3 heavy weapon squads (1 lascannon, 1 heavy bolter and 1 mortar). I take 2 leman russes, maybe some multilaser sentinels, a vendetta (only slightly more expensive that a 3 lascannon squad but infinately more usefull) and a devildog (i love te melta cannon). I don't take Straken, Creed nor Prask. I take Bastonne because he fits the fluff of an existing character from the previous incarnation of my list.

To me, its a fairly balanced list and does not spam mech vets or anything like that. Its not even the most powerfull configuration of units (no plasma russ, just normal and a demolisher) so I would feel annoyed if my opponent told me to change it because they couldn't adjust their tactics espite the fact that my list rarely if ever changes in anyway.

I agree with the person who said that part of 40k is forcing your opponent to change their plans, if you take that out of the mix then the game loses something. Thats my view anyway.

 

But back on topic, no Mephiston isn't overpowered and he is certainly killable at that point size. Especially if your opponents know to expect him (which it seems like they do) it just means that they have to tailor one or two units to counter him rather than relying on an all comers list to beat what is a fairly specialised list. If your opponents are unwilling to do that for whatever reason then i don't feel the onus is on you to change your setup, although if it caused friction between your friends then I probably would change it.

I agree with the person who said give them advice on how to beat him. Its a good idea i think to run through with your opponent at the end of the game what you think they did right and wrong. It helps both people to expand their knowledge and they might suggest something you hadn't considered and vice versa.