How to argue for Mephiston?

[Tame]

As for someone who said if you win most of the time you should change you list, i disagree with that

 

Note that I wasn't advocating it for everyone : This is just how we play. It actually hasn't happened a lot yet, but we like to tell ourselves that we'll do it when/if necessary to keep our battles interesting/challenging. It gives an occasion to try new things anyway :-)

[angel of justice]

Drop mepheston, take 10 death company and 2 death company dreadnoughts with blood claws and drop pods (slightly more than mepheston by 100 points or so). Butcher your oponents, laugh and say you dont know what overpowered is!

 

or alternatively just run a regular librarian with some sanguinary priests mixed in with squads, fighting against mega units like the nightbringer or abbadon makes you sharper while using the rest of your army, if your able to avoid or adapt to the monster while dealing with the rest of your opponents army it makes you a better general. However i can understand when people dont want to play that way. If its not an important game leave him at home, if its a tournament take him your better off keeping your friends to play games with than annoying them so no one wants to play with you.

[whitewolfmxc]

"-(While we do not have a Space Wolf player) We will never play Jaws of the World Wolf as we find it too powerful."

 

But you dont have a Nid player in your group ! lol Even though i hate to point out that its crap without aimming it at Nid MC's......

 

but seriously , Mr M weither he is beatable in a low point game (1500 is middile ground id say) is that if the enemy know his coming , sure if they know 1500 is enough to deal with him , but at what percentage of the enemy army is destroyed or used to deal with him ? Also if they dont know , then yes MR M could be a problem , but most of the time its not unstoppable , but would cost them the game ? Probably

 

So the conclusion i have is , if its in your codex feel free to use it anytime , if you want to go easy on your gaming buddies , let them know if MR m is making an appearance or not that day (dont have to be before you guys bring the list , but at least during deployment let them know)

 

Also as others have said , give some advice to your opponent when using him , tell them his weakness (yes , unbelievably Mr ward did leave a weakness in Mr M even though his total stupidity)

[toaae]

I'm a little shocked how this community has responded and attacked your group's preference. I mean, come on guys, if that's how they want to play, that's their right.

 

If you want to be able to convince your group that Mephiston isn't too much for your group, you really need to work with them to figure out how to kill him without forcing your opponents to tailor their lists towards his inclusion. If that can't be accomplished, then I have to say that it doesn't sound like the Lord of Death belongs in your games.

[ProteanSun]

I thoroughly enjoyed reading this post and it's pro/con mephy antics. I play Mephiston in 1750 or higher only, and although he destroyed quite a bit, he lost 3 wounds to Eldar Pathfinders. I play a librarian heavy list, with a jump packing librarian and 2 Libby Dreads in 1500 (along with 2 naked flamestorm preds and a Land Raider).

 

Yes I can understand how this seems like a lot, but I only have 15 scoring models in the army. I can clean up against armies that have no psychic defense, though a Marine player with a Librarian, Eldar w/ Farseer & correct Runes, Nids can completely shut me down and force me to play off the back foot. I wrote a complete back story for my army to explain why it is skewed the way it is and my gaming group has not complained one bit about my list, and they are a very casual gaming group.

 

On one hand I agree about your gaming group complaining a little. It sounds like your group is not looking to evolve in tactics, because frankly that is what the new codex force you to do, adapt. It's the essence of war.

 

I have a suggestion for your group. This will help all of you learn adaptability and give you one hell of a fun time if you approach it correctly. Have each member of your group write 3 army lists. Number them Low (1-2), Mid (3-4) and High (5-6). When you are ready to play, have you opponent roll and D6 and use the corresponding numbered list.

 

It is a great way to expand your horizons and for everyone to learn something about their own army.

 

Aside from that, talk to your group, explain what in their lists would have worked best and at what point. I am happy to sit down with some one after a game and critique the game, including asking what mistakes they saw me make.

 

All in all, HAVE FUN. It's just a game.

 

P.S.: I wrote this response from the hospital where I am currently laid up and on some reasonably heavy meds so I apologize for it being long and possibly hard to understand.

[maverike_prime]

I was just skimming the thread, so I appologize if I'm repeating points that have already been made.

 

I played my first 40k game in 5 years agianst the New BA codex. 1750 points. I will tell you straight up, I had no idea what the Blood Angels had become since their 3rd edition version. I knew Mephy had been a power house under 3rd edition rules, but the real catch to it was that I didn't know my opponent was running him. He placed a Land Raider loaded with Termies at the 12" line and that was all I saw when the game started.

I managed to pop the Land Raider and take out 3 of the 5 Termies in turn one, so I was feeling good... right up until I heard my opponent say "And I cast Wings of Sanguinias on Mephiston" and then I saw him move Mephy from behind a building.

 

So I'm immediately thinking Okay, that could be a problem. But I try to play it off like it's no big deal and casually ask "So he's got what? a 2+/5+ save and what? 3 wounds?" Imagine my feeling of utter shock when my opponent replied to my question.

 

Short of the long, I very quickly learned how dangerous Mephy can be if not dealt with. Using those bloody wings of his he's able to move across with frieghtening speed and when he launched an assault, he tended to inflict considerable wounds on my 10 man squads before I could even make an attack back at him. I finally managed to down him by going after him with a 6 man biker squad equiped with Melta guns, a power weapon and Icon of Nurgle (HA! Toughess 6 versus toughness 5! :P Eat that Vampy!) Even after 3 turns of dedicated shooting and 2 rounds of CC Mephy was still a serious threat to my forces.

 

My thoughts on Mephy: Yes he is a horribly powerful character, but that is all he is. A powerful character. Unlike most characters you can't change him by putting him with a squad and with the exception of having a Sanguinary priest close by he doesn't get much of a benefit from other units. If he's on the board you're facing one of two types of players.

1) A player who doesn't really know what he's doing and took Meph cause he's that powerful

or

2) A player who knows what he's doing and is going to use Mephiston to force you to do what he wants you to do in preperation for a knock down assault.

 

Either way, he is a major consern for an opponent. Bottom line: Take him out! and in a hurry. The sooner he eats it, the sooner your opponents plan goes to boot.

 

Something else. The OP mentioned several phrases I have no understanding of. I'm wondering if you can explain them for me (I'm encountered them in other places as well)

 

• Leafblower style list.
  
• Lash list.
  
• Jaws of the World Wolf
  

 

I'm guessing since "Lash list" was in referring to Chaos Space Marines that it has something to do with the Lash of Submission psychic power but I'm a little lost how you build a list around a power that exactly 2 models in the army can take.

 

And one other thing:

i have to agree with theharrower. the goal is to get better and figure out how to beat these "uber" armies so you will be ready for tournament play.

 

Why do so people many assume that's the end-all, be-all of the hobby?

[maverike_prime]

No one plays armies with Monstrous Creatures (Eldar is jetbikes, no Tyranids) so maybe that's why they are so unaccustomed to Mephiston.

0_o how does one play chaos without MC and non shoty [leaf blower] IG ? could you give a sample [doesnt have to be precise] list of one or two of your friends.

 

 

Actually at 2k my Chaos Marine list doesn't have any MCs in it. Here's a break down of what I run at 2K

 

Huron

Abaddon with 5 man Terminator squad

6 Man Biker unit with Mark of Nurgle and 2 melta guns

2x 10man Marine units with Rhino, Melta gun + Las cannon

2 Obliterators

1 Pred with H. Bolter sponsons.

1x 10 man Plague Marines squad

-or-

1x 9 man 1000 Sons squad

 

I fought against a BA player who ran mephy. I managed to take him out, but it took me four turns to do it and I had to focus a considerable amount of effort to do it. I'm not going to blow sunshine and say it had anything to do with my tactical abilities that won me that game. It was pure luck that he couldn't roll a reserve roll above 1 to shave his life for the entirety of the game.

[B1ad3st0rm]

Alot of people say that BA is really OP in 5th, same with Mephiston.

But really those kind of armies and characters have their weaknesses, people just don't want to have to change their lists to beat them.

Nothing in 40k is unbeatable hell I ran 5 LC\5 TH\SS termies with a Priest, Libby, and Reclusiarch sure it takes alot of bullets but give them enough dice and they start to die.

Mephiston is the same.

Rather then big guns shooting him try lots of small ones, sure 2+ save is going to save alot but ones will pop up. :P

[Sanguinarian]

I thoroughly enjoyed reading this post and it's pro/con mephy antics. I play Mephiston in 1750 or higher only, and although he destroyed quite a bit, he lost 3 wounds to Eldar Pathfinders. I play a librarian heavy list, with a jump packing librarian and 2 Libby Dreads in 1500 (along with 2 naked flamestorm preds and a Land Raider).

 

Yes I can understand how this seems like a lot, but I only have 15 scoring models in the army. I can clean up against armies that have no psychic defense, though a Marine player with a Librarian, Eldar w/ Farseer & correct Runes, Nids can completely shut me down and force me to play off the back foot. I wrote a complete back story for my army to explain why it is skewed the way it is and my gaming group has not complained one bit about my list, and they are a very casual gaming group.

 

On one hand I agree about your gaming group complaining a little. It sounds like your group is not looking to evolve in tactics, because frankly that is what the new codex force you to do, adapt. It's the essence of war.

 

I have a suggestion for your group. This will help all of you learn adaptability and give you one hell of a fun time if you approach it correctly. Have each member of your group write 3 army lists. Number them Low (1-2), Mid (3-4) and High (5-6). When you are ready to play, have you opponent roll and D6 and use the corresponding numbered list.

 

It is a great way to expand your horizons and for everyone to learn something about their own army.

 

Aside from that, talk to your group, explain what in their lists would have worked best and at what point. I am happy to sit down with some one after a game and critique the game, including asking what mistakes they saw me make.

 

All in all, HAVE FUN. It's just a game.

 

P.S.: I wrote this response from the hospital where I am currently laid up and on some reasonably heavy meds so I apologize for it being long and possibly hard to understand.

 

Sorry to hear about being laid-up in the hospital! Hope all goes well for you. You sound like a gent I once gamed with at Fox Valley Mall. Any chance you lost a paint contest several years ago because you didn't paint eyeballs on your BAs? Or, do your Monoliths light-up? If so, PM me. We've been looking for you and another fella and the redshirts won't give out personal info!

 

 

I was just skimming the thread, so I appologize if I'm repeating points that have already been made.

 

I played my first 40k game in 5 years agianst the New BA codex. 1750 points. I will tell you straight up, I had no idea what the Blood Angels had become since their 3rd edition version. I knew Mephy had been a power house under 3rd edition rules, but the real catch to it was that I didn't know my opponent was running him. He placed a Land Raider loaded with Termies at the 12" line and that was all I saw when the game started.

I managed to pop the Land Raider and take out 3 of the 5 Termies in turn one, so I was feeling good... right up until I heard my opponent say "And I cast Wings of Sanguinias on Mephiston" and then I saw him move Mephy from behind a building.

 

So I'm immediately thinking Okay, that could be a problem. But I try to play it off like it's no big deal and casually ask "So he's got what? a 2+/5+ save and what? 3 wounds?" Imagine my feeling of utter shock when my opponent replied to my question. <<<=== That made me lol!!!

 

Short of the long, I very quickly learned how dangerous Mephy can be if not dealt with. Using those bloody wings of his he's able to move across with frieghtening speed and when he launched an assault, he tended to inflict considerable wounds on my 10 man squads before I could even make an attack back at him. I finally managed to down him by going after him with a 6 man biker squad equiped with Melta guns, a power weapon and Icon of Nurgle (HA! Toughess 6 versus toughness 5! :P Eat that Vampy!) Even after 3 turns of dedicated shooting and 2 rounds of CC Mephy was still a serious threat to my forces.

 

My thoughts on Mephy: Yes he is a horribly powerful character, but that is all he is. A powerful character. Unlike most characters you can't change him by putting him with a squad and with the exception of having a Sanguinary priest close by he doesn't get much of a benefit from other units. If he's on the board you're facing one of two types of players.

1) A player who doesn't really know what he's doing and took Meph cause he's that powerful

or

2) A player who knows what he's doing and is going to use Mephiston to force you to do what he wants you to do in preperation for a knock down assault.

 

Either way, he is a major consern for an opponent. Bottom line: Take him out! and in a hurry. The sooner he eats it, the sooner your opponents plan goes to boot.

 

Something else. The OP mentioned several phrases I have no understanding of. I'm wondering if you can explain them for me (I'm encountered them in other places as well)

 

• Leafblower style list.
  
• Lash list.
  
• Jaws of the World Wolf
  

 

I'm guessing since "Lash list" was in referring to Chaos Space Marines that it has something to do with the Lash of Submission psychic power but I'm a little lost how you build a list around a power that exactly 2 models in the army can take.

 

And one other thing:

i have to agree with theharrower. the goal is to get better and figure out how to beat these "uber" armies so you will be ready for tournament play.

 

Why do so people many assume that's the end-all, be-all of the hobby? AMEN, BROTHER, AMEN!!!

[the jeske]

honestly I dont get the hype about mephy, hes a librarian who cant pick his powers, relies on them to actually do anything, has no jump pack, has no invulnerable and most importantly cant join a unit, its not that hard to nuke him in a turn, now I'm not saying he should have those things I'm just pointing out that he has a huge number of checks and balances within his rules. The only army I think might have trouble with him is tau do to a lack of psychic defence.

against a good opponent you will have huge problems with drawing los to him . so yeah it can be hard .+ when 3 preds are on you from turn one[at short range] and there is a good chance that transports will be blown up turn 2. also remember what armies the op plays against chaos [no psychic protection] IG[no psychic protection , if they dont take GKGM or INQ] and orks[No psychic protection] . 3 out of 4 armies he plays against do nothing to stop psychic powers.

 

Nothing in 40k is unbeatable hell I ran 5 LC\5 TH\SS termies with a Priest, Libby, and Reclusiarch sure it takes alot of bullets but give them enough dice and they start to die.

because this is an uber unit build . try 3LR with 3 priests and 3 termi units 1 llibby 2 chapies and two camper squads in a kill points mission . the problem with the lists the op plays against is , that they seem plain bad. on top of not wanting to change their list[although with chaos that is a practicly impossible to do] . they play singles , the op plays mecha like it should have been played spamed choices , spamed support good counter.

 

 

also to people saying you have to tailor to kill mephy .Well first of all tailoring sucks . second if we play the tailoring game then IG comes on top . Always . third , but not less important they should already have units that counter LR, MC , biker nobz etc or at least know how to play to avoid them . If they dont then it is true , they cant counter 3 preds and mef fast enough and end of it it doesnt matter if they kill him or the tanks , if 2/3 of all games are about objectives and they have to kill RAS and tacs and for that to happen they would have to play for 9 turns and have units alive by then.

[Morticon]

Something else. The OP mentioned several phrases I have no understanding of. I'm wondering if you can explain them for me (I'm encountered them in other places as well)

• Leafblower style list.
  
• Lash list.
  
• Jaws of the World Wolf
  

 

 

Leafblower was the nickname given to last years ardboys winning list. Its a mechanised IG list making use of lots and lots of chimeras and veterans and specials - then filled up with heavy support and vendettas etc. It got the name because, even in the final, no game lasted more than an hour or so as it tabled every opponent.

 

The lash list is usually double winged daemon lash with obliterators and/or vindicator backup. It works by clumping units into nice plasmacannon sized portions for your Oblits.

 

Jaws - I assume this is not a build per se. It is in reference to the SW power that removes specific models from play if they fail an initiative check.

 

 

Thing is, Jaws and Lash can both be slighted with a psychic hood.

Leafblwer style (ie: mounted guard) is a bit trickier - but also beatable - especially at 1500 level where its not as insane.

[SamaNagol]

The reason why people are 'attacking' the gaming group is because this guy clearly wants to play with Mephiston yet because of other people's ignorant views on the game he is fearful to do so.

 

You do realise that making someone else feel reluctant to do something through enforcing your own views and opinions on them is morally wrong, right?

 

It just seems to be a very ignorant group of 'gamers', who seem to take it far more seriously than any tournament players. Banning, censuring and restricting people so they do not have a perceived 'overpowered' list is way worse than a group of people all competing against each other to try and write the best all comers list for 'competitive' play.

[Isryion]

It just seems to be a very ignorant group of 'gamers', who seem to take it far more seriously than any tournament players. Banning, censuring and restricting people so they do not have a perceived 'overpowered' list is way worse than a group of people all competing against each other to try and write the best all comers list for 'competitive' play.

 

You seem to know a lot about them from reading one thread. No offense, but you're not going to change his group's gaming perspective with internet chatter. You're simply talking about two different groups of gamers and one isn't inherently more mature than the other. In fact, I'd argue that while their are many mature, good discussions on the interenet, this is also where you can go to find the most immature of gamers.

 

If they all agree to play that way, that's really their business. If they're all limiting themselves because they want certain kinds of lists or a certain kind of game that's really their deal. If he keeps bringing Mephiston (or whatever list) and then no one wants to play against him because his defense is, "a bunch of faceless guys on the internet say I can" he's not going to be playing long. The posts that simply complain about his group just aren't constructive. I think the best that can be done, as many already have, is to help give his opponents tips to beat Meph.

[daboarder]

Isryion the impression we are getting about this group seems to be that they use peer pressure to prevent the OP from using a unit he would like to, in this case mephiston. Now to me that seems not only increadibly childish but also rude and belittleing. Obviously this opinion is based upon my current experience of the group (the information provided by the OP) and is clearly subject to change as new information comes to light, but with the information available now it is quite a reasonable hypothesis.

[SamaNagol]

The very practice of encouraging people to change their lists if they win too much is counter productive to getting better at the game.

 

And I already posted earlier in the thread to give his opponents tips on how to deal with Mephiston.

 

Really, instead of censuring lists and certain unit choices they should all get together and discuss tactics and ways to deal with these units and armies they keep losing too, sharing insights and suggestions thus raising the overall level of generalship amongst the group.

[Isryion]

I'm not disagreeing (completely anyway - mostly on the tact), but getting him to change his group is unlikely. To say or assume their aren't lists that are simply no fun to play simply isn't true. It's not always about getting better. Sometimes it's simply about enjoying the game. Some of us have lives and families and aren't really looking to play a game we lose before you even arrive. The idea that every game we play is practice for a tournament is far more prevalent on the internet than in reality.

 

At this point, I'm going to drop it because I don't think Mephiston fits that category anyway, and your assumptions about the group may be correct. I just think there are, as mentioned, more constructive ways to do address it.

[daboarder]

I think I agree with sama here, if you start censoring lists pretty soon you'll wind up with things like tau players refusing to play you if you have assualt squads as they get into CC to fasst.

[Theikos]

Some of us have lives and families and aren't really looking to play a game we lose before you even arrive. The idea that every game we play is practice for a tournament is far more prevalent on the internet than in reality.

 

I think I agree with sama here, if you start censoring lists pretty soon you'll wind up with things like tau players refusing to play you if you have assualt squads as they get into CC to fasst.

 

 

I think these two comments describe my situation the best. (btw I really appreciate the comments so far guys, thank you.)

 

 

The intentions of our group is to avoid situations where we are designing balanced fun lists and lose the game before setting up. I can remember playing as Tau against my Black Templar friend and basically losing the game the moment his drop pods hit, it sucked a lot to play against it. That being said I probably could have adapted and learned to play against him but in the end I actually switched to Blood Angels and didn't look back.

 

The group has never forced anyone to change their lists. I have agreed with them that things like Blood Talons en masse, double or triple vindicators and double or triple Flamestorm Cannons can be too much for some armies to handle, so I keep them to a minimum, I've tried very hard to make the lists I play fun and fair and balanced. No one has outright told me to do anything, I've done so on my own.

 

That being said I'm worried that this latest debate about Mephiston is moving too far into the direction that daboarder has indicated... When the group has gripes against so many elements of my Codex I start to worry that we're heading too far in the 'keep everyone happy at all costs' direction.

 

So my question still remains whether or not Mephiston is unfair, unbalanced or just not fun at 1500 points... We're all reasonable and I have had many matches with no one refusing to play me, however I want to make sure I'm not being a jerk by continuing to play him at 1500.

 

 

Thanks again brothers!

 

Theikos

[ProteanSun]

So my question still remains whether or not Mephiston is unfair, unbalanced or just not fun at 1500 points... We're all reasonable and I have had many matches with no one refusing to play me, however I want to make sure I'm not being a jerk by continuing to play him at 1500.

 

Theikos

 

I would have to say he is only as unbalanced as a land raider crusader. It has about the same threat range though substitute the transport capacity and any real range firepower for smaller size and melee hitting power.

 

I really don't think he is an issue of balance, as frankly I have seen much worse lists. Make sure you are up front with your opponents about his pros and cons.

 

Another thing is your playing style, do you rub it in their face when you win? Do you make the game fun for your opponents? I have never had anyone gripe with me about my list after a game, only before. I make sure EVERYONE has a great time involved and frankly I tend to draw a crowd of spectators because people wonder what the hell we are doing different to make our game so much fun.

 

Have fun, the number one rule and it sounds like your group might be forgetting it, or letting competitive play interfere.

 

As another suggestion, I suggest picking up the battle missions book, as it definitely gives a new spin to the game and adds characterful feel to missions. Another option is consider getting the planetary battles expansion. Playing a story based campaign can completely overshadow the individual games you play as you get to write your own epic stories and it also has a lot of factors that make the battles more interesting.

 

It sounds like your group has hit a rut and you need something to stir it up. Unfortunately as you seem to be the scapegoat it will fall to you to be creative. Take this as an opportunity to revitalize the game you love.

 

I was a redshirt for GW for over a year and a half, and I have done many many things to keep the hobbyists having fun. You will notice I recommended new products to look into but there is a reason GW makes them, to keep the game interesting.

[Bishoujo]

The thing that bothers me about this type of situation is how you determine where this ridiculous line of thinking stops? I'd say Mephiston is no more difficult to kill than terminators. You can get a squad of 5 terminators + a sanguinary priest for roughly the same points as Mephiston, and you could argue that it is points better spent. I could understand a casual group limiting *some* things, like someone running a fully min/maxxed IG list and then adding in an inquisitor + mystics from a 9 year old codex to abuse outdated wargear would be very out of place in a casual group of 40K friends.

 

But taking out units just because they are "good"? Well, good is completely relative! No leafblower, no lash, no JotWW. Now no Mephiston? So, what becomes the new "best" unit that your group can no longer deal with? Vendetta gunships deal an absurd amount of damage for their points value, so let's not take those any more. Land Raiders are hard to kill - so no more of them. Then you start banning all monstrous creatures, all AV 14, then all melta weapons, then all lance weapons, etc.

 

Next thing you know, the group is just playing high point kill-team missions from the battle missions book. No heavy support, no HQ.

 

At the end of the day, you have to do what is right for your gaming group, and even more so when those same guys are your friends. So, do what makes the majority happy in order to keep the group going. Just know that it's a slippery slope - and don't be surprised when next year your army list consists of 6 squads of non-mechanized tactical marines and 3 squads of non-heavy weapon devastator squads (cause plasma cannons are OP, melta is cheating and lascannons? forget about it!).

[Hazard]

+1 to Cannoness' post.

 

There is a fine line between friendly non competitive gaming and outright patty cake.

 

Mephiston is the toughest Marine out there but he is a sledge hammer - he is very direct and using him with finesse is quite a challenge. The last person who should be complaining is the IG player! I with guard it's always: either we, the Guard, shoot the crap out of that thing or it gets to CC and kills us all. It's always like that, so Meph isn't anything new to them. And things like PBS can give Meph fits.

[SamaNagol]

He is 50pts more than a unit of Codex Marine TH/SS Terminators, who would be able to kill him in combat.

 

He's not that good. Just help your friends to learn some decent generalship.

[Morticon]

A little food for thought.

 

Something to consider is that not all gaming groups have infinite resources.

It doesnt only take a good general to beat mephiston. It takes a specific sets wargear/weapons and unit combinations.

If you dont have those combinations, you're not beating him any time soon.

 

For student-level gaming where you gotta rely on your bi-annual gift of 40k to flesh out your army and you dont have access to expensive bits, then youre crap outta luck and it makes theming to counter the threat a lot more challenging.

[wookielips]

He is 50pts more than a unit of Codex Marine TH/SS Terminators, who would be able to kill him in combat.

 

on what math? those termi's need 6's to wound him (at which point he would go on their initiative...). 5s with FC. he wounds them on 2s, has 5 wounds, and goes before them always (unless he gets TH'd of course). this does not even count him re-rolling hits and wounds against an IC that fails its gaze test, or that he can pass a psychic power to be s10 and re-roll his hits (which means, with his WS, he probably shouldn't miss, unless you hood the unleash rage)

 

i normally agree with what you have to say sama, but thats just not correct.

[Morticon]

He is 50pts more than a unit of Codex Marine TH/SS Terminators, who would be able to kill him in combat.

 

on what math? those termi's need 6's to wound him (at which point he would go on their initiative...). 5s with FC. he wounds them on 2s, has 5 wounds, and goes before them always (unless he gets TH'd of course). this does not even count him re-rolling hits and wounds against an IC that fails its gaze test, or that he can pass a psychic power to be s10 and re-roll his hits (which means, with his WS, he probably shouldn't miss, unless you hood the unleash rage)

 

i normally agree with what you have to say sama, but thats just not correct.

 

Erm..wookie ...thunderhammer wounds meph on 2s after hitting on 4s. An unwounded meph needs 10 TH attacks against him to be wiped out in one phase. A squad of those terms put out 10 accepting a charge. 15 on the charge.

 

Meph also wont kill all of them, cause they'll have a 3++ save and reduce his Init next turn too.