How to argue for Mephiston?

[Brother-Captain Lucius]

wookie lips Samanagol was reffering to the Free TH/SS that vanilla marine players almost always take on their Assault Termie's

 

Woops Ninja'd by Mort!

[wookielips]

He is 50pts more than a unit of Codex Marine TH/SS Terminators, who would be able to kill him in combat.

 

on what math? those termi's need 6's to wound him (at which point he would go on their initiative...). 5s with FC. he wounds them on 2s, has 5 wounds, and goes before them always (unless he gets TH'd of course). this does not even count him re-rolling hits and wounds against an IC that fails its gaze test, or that he can pass a psychic power to be s10 and re-roll his hits (which means, with his WS, he probably shouldn't miss, unless you hood the unleash rage)

 

i normally agree with what you have to say sama, but thats just not correct.

 

Erm..wookie ...thunderhammer wounds meph on 2s after hitting on 4s. An unwounded meph needs 10 TH attacks against him to be wiped out in one phase. A squad of those terms put out 10 accepting a charge. 15 on the charge.

 

Meph also wont kill all of them, cause they'll have a 3++ save and reduce his Init next turn too.

 

sorreh. forgot their strength. you 2 are right. my b.

 

still, charging or being charged by those with meph solo is just bad play, or desperate.

 

but yeah, i was off, by a slight bit :P

[toaae]

The reason why people are 'attacking' the gaming group is because this guy clearly wants to play with Mephiston yet because of other people's ignorant views on the game he is fearful to do so.

 

You do realise that making someone else feel reluctant to do something through enforcing your own views and opinions on them is morally wrong, right?

 

It just seems to be a very ignorant group of 'gamers', who seem to take it far more seriously than any tournament players. Banning, censuring and restricting people so they do not have a perceived 'overpowered' list is way worse than a group of people all competing against each other to try and write the best all comers list for 'competitive' play.

 

This and the posts that follow are ignorant. I fail to see anywhere in the OP's posts where he made any sort of suggestion that he isn't a complete participant in the "censoring" that his group does. It's a friendly group that has agreed to self-censor themselves in order to keep their games level and competitive. It is baffling that there are members of this community that can't wrap their heads around the fact that the OP and his group enjoy playing this way in agreement. Who cares if it isn't the way you play? It's a game with plastic toy soldiers.

 

The group's members censor themselves so that they can keep playing friendly, level games. Assuming anything differently from the OP's posts is ignorant. So, instead of attacking his group's preferences, which he subscribes to, how about we answer the question he posed, or not post at all?

[daboarder]

A little food for thought.

 

Something to consider is that not all gaming groups have infinite resources.

It doesnt only take a good general to beat mephiston. It takes a specific sets wargear/weapons and unit combinations.

If you dont have those combinations, you're not beating him any time soon.

 

For student-level gaming where you gotta rely on your bi-annual gift of 40k to flesh out your army and you dont have access to expensive bits, then youre crap outta luck and it makes theming to counter the threat a lot more challenging.

 

I think I disagree mort, all you need to shut mephiston down is a librarian/farseer(with the right runes)/synapse/runepriest/inquisitor, and with the prevalance and strength of new psychic powers these should be mandatory, and a squad that ignores armour saves and you're going to get him pretty easily. Now I understand say chaos (both types) or tau having a difficult time taking him out but then I've seen an assualt squad sergeant with power fist sucker punch him over 4 turns and kill him.

 

edit: tahaal as cannoness and I said in our previous posts where does this stop? and as for evidence of peer pressure, sure perhaps there isn't much but I'd say that the very fact that the OP is worried about taking a single unit and being refused games because of it is clear evidence of peer pressure.

[wookielips]

meph isnt nearly as tough as everyone has made him out to be. every time ive put him on the table, crap shooting spam has taken him out. the key to him is making him take 2^10 armor saves. its the cheapest way to get him down. ive seen him take 3 flashlight wounds in a game, on 3 consecutive turns.

 

just spam him.

 

that being said, to the OP. if you point out his inherent weaknesses, and his raging cost, and his immediately diminished effects against 2 whole races (eldar+farseer (duh) and nids shadow), even if those races arent in your local group, meph becomes less of a scary beast and more of a powerful psyker marine who is 10% of a 2500 pt list for 1 model.

 

try that. show the pro's, and the obvious cons, and see what they say. if its still no, get 2 libbies for the less price and everyone gets a 5+ crossing the field! :confetti:

[toaae]

edit: tahaal as cannoness and I said in our previous posts where does this stop? and as for evidence of peer pressure, sure perhaps there isn't much but I'd say that the very fact that the OP is worried about taking a single unit and being refused games because of it is clear evidence of peer pressure.

 

The slippery slope is a logical fallacy. And I don't see anywhere where the OP said he is worried about getting refused a game by this. He wants arguments for why Mephiston isn't too much for his group to handle.

[daboarder]

the slippery slope isn't really a logical fallacy, we're seeing the progression from army lists ( which I understand) to specific units right here, but I digress and this discussion about human nature does not really belong here so feel free to PM me if you would like to continue this discussion, could be a good argument.

 

as for my last post's example I would like to clarify. My opponent tried to force mephiston down the middle of my army but my librarian was able to shut down about 50% of his powers and I jumped him with a 10 man assualt squad. Now at the end of this melee the sergeant was the only thing left standing but he went on to win me the game by sucking up a huge amount of fire, does this mean that 10 man assualt squads are to much to handle? of course not.

[maverike_prime]

This question has been on my mind a lot today, so I sat down and made some graphs.

This first graph shows the basic stats for Mephiston compared to Danta, Abaddon and Huron. When I say basic I mean right out of the unit profile before any special abilities, pyschic abilities, war gear, or anything else kicks in:

 

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a316/maverike_prime/Warhammer/graph-1.gif

 

You can see there's nothing really that really sets one apart from the others. Though you can see that Mephiston has the highest stats of any of the four compared characters.

 

Then I made a second graph that compares the states of all four characters assuming a pen-ultimate effect of their various wargear (Abaddon rolling a 6 for his attacks with his daemon weapon for instance).

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a316/maverike_prime/Warhammer/graph-2.gif

You can see that while Abaddon gets a massive amount of attacks should he roll well, but Mephiston shoots up to Strength 10 (Enough to double out ANYTHING in the CSM codex shy of a greater Daemon or a Daemon prince).

 

Like wise there are other effects that can't be charted.

 

Mephiston gaining the Preferred Enemy rule, so he can re-roll his misses... not that I'm expecting him to get many of those with WS 7 and he gains the jump pack ability thanks to the Wings psychic power.

 

I'm not normally one to cry fowl on Codex updates, and I'm not gonna try and tell anyone else how to play games with their friends but looking at these comparisons I do have to kind of wonder about the fairness of running a character like Mephiston in games smaller then 2,000 points. He's effectively a Hero killer, a squad killer AND a vehicle killer all in one with the ability to move as jump infantry.

 

I mean Abaddon is 275, and with the exception of his attacks, what you buy IS what you get. No surprises or or maybes. Mephiston by comparison is 25 points less the Abby but can take out squads even without his Transfixing gaze . If he gets his gaze off he gets to re-roll his failed hits and his failed to-wounds with his strength 10 attacks that's also a force weapon.

[wookielips]

you lowered dante's stats for 0 inv save. this is erroneous.

 

i like the charts a lot, and your analysis is spot on. not being able to factor in "fanciness" like meph's rerolls, or dante's multi-charges in a game cause of HnR and 12" move makes him stronger, on average, than his stat-line.

 

good post. +1

[maverike_prime]

you lowered dante's stats for 0 inv save. this is erroneous.

my bad. Forgot the Iron Halo.

 

Basic Stats

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a316/maverike_prime/Warhammer/graph-1-1.gif

 

Uber-rolls

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a316/maverike_prime/Warhammer/graph-2-1.gif

[Quantra]

Not saying this has any weight on the argument but I have fought abaddon with mephiston probably about 12-15 times as a friend of mine has him and we have a little grudge match between those two characters. Out of all of those attempts mephy has won once only. I'm liking the graphs, neat way of comparing raw data but thought I would throw that piece of real world experience in for interest's sake.

[SamaNagol]

You forgot that Abaddon strikes at S8 as well.

 

/

 

5 TH/SS Terminators kill Mephiston 9 times out of 10 over 1 player turn with 2 CC phases. Sure, Mephiston would have to be retarded to charge them himself, but thats why you ensure that you have them in a Land Raider within 18 inches of every other meat shield unit in your army so you can guarantee a counter charge after he massacres some worthless unit. And after that, you still have a very effective unit and Tank to continue to go through the rest of your opponents' army which likely has no other assault contingent.

 

Mephiston is difficult to deal with unless you have a certain set of attributes, namely High Strength/Low AP ranged weapons or around 10 attacks worth of survivable Power Fists/Thunder Hammers.

[maverike_prime]

Not saying this has any weight on the argument but I have fought abaddon with mephiston probably about 12-15 times as a friend of mine has him and we have a little grudge match between those two characters. Out of all of those attempts mephy has won once only. I'm liking the graphs, neat way of comparing raw data but thought I would throw that piece of real world experience in for interest's sake.

 

I originally typed this to ask if you were running Abby with a squad or not, but I started to plot that out and I figured it'd be more beneficial to plot out my thoughts :

Mephiston charging with a successful Psychic tests: 5 attacks, that get to reroll misses and wounds striking at Strength 10 at initiative 7 and ignores normal saves.

Abby charging rolling a full 6 Attacks: 10 attacks at strength 8 at Initiavive 6 with ignore normal armor saves.

 

One on one Mephiston is going to be Attacking Abaddon's base toughness of 4, not 5 (Strength 10 is double Abaddon's Toughness no matter how you look at it) meaning he's gonna wound Abaddon on 2+ compared to Abaddon wounding Abby on 6+. I don't see it being unreasonable to figure that Meph can land 4 of his 2+ attacks that get to re-roll his to-hit and to-wounds. Abby's 2+ save is toast leaving him to trust in on his 5+ Inv save. Those are long odds, by no means impossible to make, but long odds none the less. If Meph is followed up by just about anything in the BA codex it's almost a guaranteed dead Abby.

 

So now I would like to ask if you ran Abby with a Squad those times you fought Meph? If you were running him solo all those times I would have to question how Mephiston didn't win the majority of the time.

[daboarder]

the graph also easily leads to mis-interpretation of the lack of invul, that is a HUGE ballancing factor for meph, especially when coupled with his reliance on psychic powers.

[maverike_prime]

the graph also easily leads to mis-interpretation of the lack of invul, that is a HUGE ballancing factor for meph, especially when coupled with his reliance on psychic powers.

 

I don't understand how the graphs comparing the Inv saves, or lack of same, would be miss-leading.

[daboarder]

perhaps its just me, I simply meant it requires understanding of the availability of PW to correctly interpret.

[SamaNagol]

Abaddon as a 4+ invulnerable, is Toughness 5 when rolling to wound, and has Eternal Warrior. Mephiston hits him on 4s but has 6+D3 attacks on the charge with Might of Heroes activated, not 5.

 

Abaddon strikes back at I6 with St8 so needs 2s to wound with re-rolls.

 

Abaddon wins because he cannot be Instant Killed and also has a 4+ Invulnerable. He grinds Mephiston down by attrition.

[Zid]

I say, if your buddys wanna play named guys (Abaddon, etc.) you should feel free to play meph... at 1500 points your spending 1/6th of your list on ONE model. If they cannot find a way to deal with him, well.. sorry! But like many have said, hes easy to shoot down (your IG friend might have to FF him a turn or two), charge him with hard to kill stuff, and he has no invun. Tell your chaos buddy to run a MoT Demon prince w/ warptime and watch how epic the battle becomes! Honestly, named guys aren't all that cheese until you get to around 1000 pts... at that points value even guys like Dante are pretty beastmode.

[Brother Kovash]

To the OP, are you only playing against your friends? Or do you guys play at a store with other players as well? If your friends make you change the way you play because you are winning, I'd find some other people to play with regularly.

 

My friend plays Tyranids, and it took me 2 months to finally beat him in a game, and that was with a little bit of luck. If anyone else is playing special characters, you should be, too.

[maverike_prime]

forgot to account for the Tzeentch Upgrade to Abby's Inv.

 

1) Meph doesn't have Might of Heroes. He gets 4 attacks base, so +1 for charging.

2) S8 Vs T7. Abaddon would need 3+ to wound.

 

Eternal Warrior just means you can't be doubled out. The Mark of Nurgle specifically looses it's effect when when the model is hit by a weapon that is 2x, or more, it's base toughness. S10 vs T4, Meph's gonna be wounding him on 2+ and he gets to re-roll failed wounds.

[Sanguinarian]

I find myself in a debate among my play group. I need to know: <<<===Debate means discussion back and forth.

 

Is Mephiston too much for opponents to handle?

 

Allow me to explain my situation. I play Warhammer 40k with a small group of friends. Their armies are: (Guard, Templar, Eldar, Dark Angels, Orks, Chaos). As a group we tend to be a bit competitive amongst each other, but overall we do try to make the game fun for everyone involved. We constantly debate the more extreme elements of Warhammer 40k and try to come to decisions that promote a healthy metagame. A few examples of decisions we've made as a group:

By definition doesn't metagame mean your just pretending to play? I'll wait for the answer to this question before attempting to answer anything else.

-Our Guard player will not play a Leafblower style list. Couldn't resist. WHY? It's beatable!

-Our Chaos player will not play a Lash list. Again, WHY? It, too, is beatable!

-(While we do not have a Space Wolf player) We will never play Jaws of the World Wolf as we find it too powerful. Won't say it a 3rd time. :( PLAY TO WIN, KILL, ANNIHILATE!!!

 

We used to play at about 2000 points, however when my codex was updated and I started playing 2000 points of Blood Angels, it proved to be very difficult for some of them to play against. Randomize points or play a campaign or get the Battle Missions book as Protean Sun advised or add more members to the group or play the lists that work.As a solution we dropped down to 1500 points as our standard, feeling that it leveled the playing field a bit better, which I agreed to. I've also agreed not to play double vindicators at 1500 as we all feel that would be very difficult to face. WAR IS NOT LEVEL!!! Patton didn't coordinate with Mr. Moustache as to how many tanks he was rolling through Europe, etc....??? This does not compute. When I lose, I replay the game - metagame if you will - and devise ways to cover my mistakes and exploit his next time. That's the beauty of not actually dying on the battlefield! You get to come back to life and fight again.

 

Those compromises aside, the current situation I find myself in is that the group is bringing up my choice of using Mephiston as something they are unable to deal with. Let them play YOUR army and blow Meph off the table with THEIR armies!!! I've played quite a few games against Eldar, Guard and Templar. The list is doing very well and Mephiston generally gets to munch on more than his value of points before biting the bullet. Contain and control: Why wouldn't they take Leafblower, Lash or JoWW and blow his arse off the table!?!?!?!

 

Here is my current list at 1500:

 

Mephiston

 

Ras(10) Fist, Meltax2, Rhino, DB

Ras(5) Sword, Melta, Razorback, DB, TL Lascannon

Ras(5) Sword, Melta, Razorback, DB, TL Lascannon

 

Sanguinary Priest with Sword

 

Baal Predator, DB, FSC

Baal Predator, DB, HBS

Baal Predator, DB, HBS

 

Vindicator, DB

 

As you can see the list is basically lots of armor with Mephiston, which has a lot of synergy. What do their armies look like? Get them on here to read how 50+ BA Commanders are telling THEM how to beat Meph. I find it hilarious that this post has gotten so much attention, all to the tune of "He is NOT indestructible!

 

 

The main arguments I'm receiving about Mephiston are:

 

-He is too much for some/most armies to deal with at 1500. At 2000+ armies would be better equipped to encounter things like him.

 

-There is nothing like him in the game, meaning a small infantry model that behaves like one of the best monstrous creatures out there, who almost always goes first. (Too powerful)

 

-His high toughness, 5 wounds, armor save and feel no pain make him next to impossible to kill without using all of your anti-vehicle shooting, which with a cover save is still hardly a guarantee. He takes too many resources to kill with shooting. Tell them to take an allied Meph in their armies!!!

 

-He forces my enemies to play in ways they do not want to play (dictates their board position, how they use their armies).

 

 

Now I don't necessarily disagree with my friends on this subject, Mephiston is a powerhouse for sure. I'm just not entirely certain that he is as broken as they feel he is. I've already made a few compromises to try and keep things fun, and if Mephiston is no fun to play against I would rather drop him than have no one to play with. Quite admirable of you, but I think mixing it up would be more fun. Trade armies and learn each other's.

 

Have any of you found yourselves in similar situations? How do other BA players argue against these points? Should I drop Mephiston and work on a more straightforward list (remember these are my friends, not random folks)?

 

 

Thank you for your advice and comments brothers!

 

My Dark Eldar bud hated when I used my Superfriends List, but he played me and almost wiped me out in 3 turns, then his dice went to crap, Psycho survived 50 Wyche Attacks; Astorath, Lemartes and 5 DC ate 2-3 Raiders + Squads; and Corbulo and my Tactical Sgt Johnny Bench survived 2 rounds of 6 Dark Lances to contest an objective on Turn 5 as the game ended. He knows what to do differently next game, as do I. ALL'S FAIR IN LOVE AND WAR. Your group would do well to remember that. ;)

[Brother Grius]

I think that the first reply was one of the best. Instead of playing down to your opponents, let them play up to you. Let the Imperial Guard player take that extra Basilisk or Leman Russ, let the Chaos player take the Lash Prince that can keep Mephiston away from other units. If Mephiston is your favourite HQ, then taking him out of your army would be ruining your fun. I think the best thing to do is give your opponent's more leniency against Mephiston.

 

Mephiston isn't too much to deal with, but he is a powerhouse. Make sure your opponent's know they have other options before you go ditch your favourite HQ. After all, you've already paid for the model.

[Stormshrug]

meph isnt nearly as tough as everyone has made him out to be. every time ive put him on the table, crap shooting spam has taken him out. the key to him is making him take 2^10 armor saves. its the cheapest way to get him down. ive seen him take 3 flashlight wounds in a game, on 3 consecutive turns.

 

just spam him.

 

that being said, to the OP. if you point out his inherent weaknesses, and his raging cost, and his immediately diminished effects against 2 whole races (eldar+farseer (duh) and nids shadow), even if those races arent in your local group, meph becomes less of a scary beast and more of a powerful psyker marine who is 10% of a 2500 pt list for 1 model.

 

try that. show the pro's, and the obvious cons, and see what they say. if its still no, get 2 libbies for the less price and everyone gets a 5+ crossing the field! :confetti:

 

 

It takes upwards of 300 flashlight shots to reliably bring him down, double that with a Sang. Priest nearby.

 

Just saying.

 

-Stormshrug

 

P.S.: Jaws of the World Wolf isn't that good in the OP's metagame - no 'Nids or 'Crons.

[the jeske]

PMs are i3 so is guard . +4 kill aint +2 , but still good.

[daboarder]

forgot to account for the Tzeentch Upgrade to Abby's Inv.

 

1) Meph doesn't have Might of Heroes. He gets 4 attacks base, so +1 for charging.

2) S8 Vs T7. Abaddon would need 3+ to wound.

 

Eternal Warrior just means you can't be doubled out. The Mark of Nurgle specifically looses it's effect when when the model is hit by a weapon that is 2x, or more, it's base toughness. S10 vs T4, Meph's gonna be wounding him on 2+ and he gets to re-roll failed wounds.

 

You've got mark of nurgle wrong, it means abbadon is T5 for ALL intents and purposes except ID, but seeing as he has EW it is basically T5 for ALL intents and purposes. he doesnt suddenly get wounded easier because the hit is S8. In other words a S8 attac still rolls against his T5.