Super Fast Assault Cannon BAs

[thundrchickn]

So I was looking at another thread forum was introduced to the concept of rifleman dreadnaughts (dual assault cans). So it got me thinking. what r the Blood angels strengths.

 

 

 

-fast everythings

 

-flamestorm cannons

 

-stormravens

 

-DC

 

-furioso/DC dreads

 

I've tried running the new dreads and 2 stormravens and have had no success. Each gets toasted the moment they hit the board. the other day I was having a conversation with a gamer at my local shop who is a hardcore competitive tourney player and he awared me to the gospel of the assault cannon. So I was wondering how to work this into my list. he recommended razorbacks with cannons which would go well with the BA strengths. Razorback moves 12 and shooots or 18 to get out of dodge and each carrys a scoring unit. next is the baal pred. It can carry a TL assault cannon or if I'm playing a heavy shooting army I can swap out for a flamestorm cannon.

 

so how do i bring this all together. I'm thinking 6 scoring units with bare bones 5 man tactical sq. with razorbacks. half with assault cannons and half TLLC. This gives me a lot more scoring units than most armies field. I have the potential to outmanuver and fire devestating weapons the entire time all the while keeping my squads in armor.

 

next is the preds I figured I'd take 3 with heavy bolter sponsons since it is the second most cost efficient thing keeping with my armies ideas. Both the heavy bolter and assault cannons can threaten rear/side armor reliably and can potentially deal with av 13-14 every now and again.

 

lastly is the heavy support. haven't decided what would be best. I have 3 choices; rifleman dreadnaughts preaching the gospel of the assault cannon, autocannon/lascannon preds for more av 13-14 punching reliability, or a few stormravens to replace a few razorbacks with added benefit of additional firepower (hurrican bolters0 and a very speedy potms multimelta pot shot.

 

 

heres the cons

 

-rifleman dreads are much less mobile and assault cannon only has 24" range ant its got the worse armor of the 3

 

-predators have much less shot going downrange, double the riflemans range, heavier hitting shots if they hit, and better armor than the rifleman

 

-the stormraven has significantly more bullets going downrange, best range movement wise, good all around armor plus impervious to melta, transport so i can drop a few razobacks for points so i'd have less assault cannons on field because they are point hogs.

 

 

I'm not sure which one I'd like to field I may mix/match 2 of em. I definately think this is going to be competitve since it is very tank heavy that with easily stay out of most if not all meltas ranges all the while popping all the light armor vehicles within the first 2 turns. I don't think most armies have the ability to catch these guys. I know my tact squads are useless with no gear and at 5 man strength but i don't intend for them to actually do anything except contest objectives and maybe stop a huge threats assault phase. I use this tactic a lot with my IG army. throw a cheap unit at a big nasty. they easily eat it in 1 turn of combat which would open up the big nasty to the next turns shooting phase. having so many str 6 shots with chance to rend should be able to take out a MC threat or a named character.

 

 

 

Let me know what you think.

[Jt3n]

Riflemen Dreads are not dual assault cannons they are dual twin-linked autocannons. It does not matter much that they are slow cause they have the 48'' range but they are not rending shots. It would also be cheaper to run assault squads in your Razorbacks. :)

 

An army list similar to yours was posted about a month back trying to spam assault cannons as much as possible in a BA army. Granted he only did a 1000 point army but it's easy to add on 3 more troop and another Baal as you suggested.

 

Librarian: 100

 

Six 5 man Assault squads in a Razorback w/ TL Assault cannon or TLLC: (155 each) 6 for 930

 

Three Baal Preds with TL Assault Cannon W/ HB spons: (145 each) 3 for 435

 

Thats 1465 for that. Plenty room left for extra goodies in various 1750/2k point lists. All of it is fast moving vehicles 6 of which are scoring.

 

If you threw in 3 preds with AC/LC spons your looking at a total of 12 fast vehicles for 1870. I would like to watch that game played. ^_^

 

I might have put a tad of thought into it... so what?! I doubt I'll ever own that many vehicles.

 

-Jt3n

 

EDIT: Link didn't work. Removed it. Search in the BA army list Forum for Ass Cannon List of Death

[Rybnick]

First off I think your a little off on the rifleman dreads armaments. They have two twin linked Auto-cannons not Assault cannons. So thats four shots with range 48" S7 AP4 and the ability to reroll to hit. This makes for some of the most accurate and reliable transport/light vehicle busting available.

 

Edit-

Jt3n beat me to the punch and answered the question better than me as well!

[Dingareth]

Riflemen Dreads are 2x Twin-Linked Autocannons, not Assault Cannons, and they are God's gift to Marine players against Chimeras. Also, I wouldn't really consider Flamestorms and DC to be perks of a Blood Angels army, more like a distraction.

 

If I had to throw together an Assault Cannon based list, (and I do because I generally run one :) ), then I figure at 2,500 points you should have something like this:

 

2 Libbys with Shield and Rage

2 Priests with a Claw and Combi-Melta

2 Assault Squads with 2 Meltas, Thunder Hammer, and Infernus Pistol, each in a Land Raider Crusader with a Multi Melta and Extra Armor

4 Assault Squads with a Meltagun in a Razorback with a TL Assault Cannon

2 Multi-Melta/Heavy Flamer Speeders

3 Rifleman Dreads

 

It's got good anti-transport, enough Melta to take down Land Raiders, and a fair amount of CC power once you get the Priests into the Land Raiders. Gives you 4 Fast Assault Cannons, while still maintaining enough stand off fire power to knock out transports full of Melta troops before they get to you. Now, Bugs and Eldar might give you trouble, but there it's just a matter of target priority.

[Bishoujo]

My BA list is pretty assault cannon heavy and it's been working wonders for me.

 

Librarian w/ tooled out command squad in a razorback w/ twin-linked heavy flamer

 

3x 5-man assault squads with fist and meltagun in razorbacks with twin linked assault cannons

 

3x baal predators with twin-linked assault cannons and heavy bolter sponsons

 

2x twin-linked lascannon predators w/ lascannon sponsons

 

It's only 6 twin-linked assault cannons in my 1850 list, but it's enough to do some serious damage to people.

[thundrchickn]

my bad on the dreadnaughts. With that in mind I would definately think the 3 AC/LC preds would definately be the best of the 3 choices as it is fast has close to the same loadout as the rifleman dreads and has higher armor. I'm seriously thinking of picking up the razorbacks right now for this list.

 

btw a 5 man tact is 10 pts cheaper than a 5 man RAS.

[Brother-Captain Lucius]

they may be 10 points cheaper but with assault squads you get a 35 point discount on transports and get a special weapon at 5 men.

[thundrchickn]

SO HERE WE GO

 

libby

 

6x 5 man tact squad with assault can razorback

 

3x baal pred w/assault can and heavy bolters

 

3x predators w/ TLLC and LC sponsons

 

2005 pts at our store we can usually have a 5 pts overage

 

 

thats 6 assault cans, 3 TLasscanns, 6 LC and 3 TLLC all fast and 6 are scoring units

 

I have a feeling this would be fun to play, be kinda fluffy, and really play up BA strength.

[thundrchickn]

they may be 10 points cheaper but with assault squads you get a 35 point discount on transports and get a special weapon at 5 men.

 

forgot about that turns out in army builder I did that instead of tacts anyway and got the 2005 pt number.

 

so...

 

libby

 

6x 5 man assault squad w/ asscann razorback

 

3x baal preds asscann and heavy bolters

 

3x preds w/ TLLC and LC spons

 

2005 pts

[Brother-Captain Lucius]

I think that you could possibly do with some priests if you plan on assaulting. maybe drop 2 HB sponsons from Preds?

[Brother_Dan'l]

In a list this silly you may as well replace the three Annihilators (180 points ea. and only moves 6" if it fires all guns actually sounded like a good idea?) with a pair of Stormravens and a pair of Priests w/power swords. Give the librarian a Melta Bomb and you come in at 2000 even. Makes the army faster and scarier. Not to mention another pair of twin Assault Cannons.

[thundrchickn]

In a list this silly you may as well replace the three Annihilators (180 points ea. and only moves 6" if it fires all guns actually sounded like a good idea?) with a pair of Stormravens and a pair of Priests w/power swords. Give the librarian a Melta Bomb and you come in at 2000 even. Makes the army faster and scarier. Not to mention another pair of twin Assault Cannons.

 

nice idea thanx for contributing. I was thinking of using storravens but they never lasted more than a few seconds and I'm not really looking to get any marines into combat. I only took em for the razorbacks. I can drop em off in cover with an objective but a barebones 5 man isn't gonna hurt much of anything unless I throw like half of my marines at something. I do like the multi melta for the fact it's melta but I dont want to get within 12 in of anything with a 200 pt unit.

 

you said that its a waste taking that vehicle if its only gonna move 6 in but i disagree. I plan on moving 6 no matter what for the 4+ but i don't need to always move 12. Its nice to know that if something deep strikes or move-runs-assaults, i can still speed away 12-18. I also like the preds as they are more reliable tank busting. I would open my shooting phase with the annhilators to pop the most dangerous vehicle ( tank or transport). If its a transport and theres no other good tank targets after the annhilators have gone to town, all the asscannons mow down the footsloggers all the while doing a shoot retreat strategy.

 

About the only thing I can't see this working on is a nid horde or necrons. nids would be impossible to force a retreat like an ork horde. Against necrons, they could essentially glance me to death. My respnse to both is to switch out the baal preds TLasscans with the flamestorm cannons and use that to roll more dice than 4 from an asault cann. Concentrating all 3 could weaken a sq to the point they may not be there the next turn or so deminished that the 3 baals in close might survie a second such turn. I think that would draw enough focus for the other 9 vehicle to get into better position and start thinning out the other side.

[SamaNagol]

I'd go for Vindicators over the Predators personally. You are still very effective against armour, but can also drop giant pie plates over units of Monstrous Ctreatures/Destroyers. And Ordnance works against Monoliths.

[thundrchickn]

I'd go for Vindicators over the Predators personally. You are still very effective against armour, but can also drop giant pie plates over units of Monstrous Ctreatures/Destroyers. And Ordnance works against Monoliths.

 

i like that. I'll keep it in mind for playtesting. It would also allow me to move 12 and not worry about not being able to fire secondary weapons.

[Einholt]

Fair enough you don't want to get into assault but why limit yourself to a poor assault phase if you need to, you have loads of dakka but no assault power or staying power, especially when a razorback gets popped and you have to foot slog it, what happens if you go second and half of your transports have been blown up? Isn't it best to have the option not only available but actually viable?

 

Two priests with power weapons comes to 80 points, that's not a lot at all as you should be able to cover your whole army with those 2 FNP / FC charge bubbles, you could even drop the PW's off them and leave them in the vehicles if you assault but IMO adding a power weapon to a 5 man assault squad is useful.

 

Also I would give each assault squad a meltagun and power fist.

 

Also I was reading an article on rifleman dread vs preds and the rifleman dread came out on top, you can more easily hide them in cover, you do not have to worry about positioning as your armours the same all sides and you do not have to worry about positioning for firing the sponsons.

[thundrchickn]

Fair enough you don't want to get into assault but why limit yourself to a poor assault phase if you need to, you have loads of dakka but no assault power or staying power, especially when a razorback gets popped and you have to foot slog it, what happens if you go second and half of your transports have been blown up? Isn't it best to have the option not only available but actually viable?

 

Two priests with power weapons comes to 80 points, that's not a lot at all as you should be able to cover your whole army with those 2 FNP / FC charge bubbles, you could even drop the PW's off them and leave them in the vehicles if you assault but IMO adding a power weapon to a 5 man assault squad is useful.

 

Also I would give each assault squad a meltagun and power fist.

 

Also I was reading an article on rifleman dread vs preds and the rifleman dread came out on top, you can more easily hide them in cover, you do not have to worry about positioning as your armours the same all sides and you do not have to worry about positioning for firing the sponsons.

 

i coulda sworn 1 priest is 50 pts alone. So for 2 w/ PW itd be at least 12o-130 ish. So i'd have have 2 SP and 6 squads running around. A random razorback gets popped and is now a footsloggin assault crew. Thats a 1 in 3 chance that the back that gets popped has a priest. Whats good about that? I understand FNP blah blah blah but I'm trying to think outside the box. If I wanted to do a normal RAS army i would but I'm trying to break new ground. Personally I don't think the majority of the BA codex is groundbreaking new territory. I'm trying to build new tactics that are BA specific.

 

Lets look at the sang priest. It has a 6" bubble so thats 113 square inches. Our tables are 6' x 4' so its 3456 sq inches. That means the sang priest covers 3% of a table at any given time which is useless since all my vehicles are working with ranges of 6-18". 1 little dude isn't gonna do cr*p for this style of army unless I convert a lot of the mech to assault with assault support. especially if that dude is worth 50+ points.

 

Now i was playing with army builder seeing what types of combos i could pull off with this style of play. The troop squads stayed the same along with the baal preds but I was swapping out the annhilators for vindicators and different styles of dreadnaughts. I kinda liked the asscan/missle launcher combo btw. Vindys seem fairly nice although I think i'd get better AT taking a pred with only a TLLC and forgoing the sponsons. I also dropped a heavy support, a baal pred and a troop to make room for a 5 man DC squad with chappy, Tycho instead of a libby and a redeemer for transport.

 

When i was thinking about sang priest I started looking at my libby for the same reasons. I wasn't really feeling this dude. Normally i take lance and shield but the shield would be useless for the same reason as the SP bubble. lance is still cool but i started thinking was it worth the points in this list. With the DC variant, i swapped him out for DC tycho to give me a hyped up dude who's PW attacks can't be doubles up do to being in a different initiative than the rest of the DC. Also havign the chappy would make most of his bagillion attacks hit and wound due to rerolls. This would give me an awesome CC arm for my army if I really needed it and the redeemer can still wreak havoc til the DC is needed. Everyones afraid of DC, might as well give them something to wet themselves about.

 

Anyways keep the tips coming. We blood angels need to tear up some fools.

[SamaNagol]

If you are going to take Predators at all, Fast moving Preds with Autocannon turret and Lascannon sponsons are by far and away the superior choice. You can remain super mobile and still pose a serious threat to light armour, or move slowly and have a good chance at popping tougher targets firing all 3 weapons all for only 135pts.

[Inquisitor Kravin]

If I wanted to do a normal RAS army i would but I'm trying to break new ground.

 

I'm sorry but if it's new ground you want to break then this is not the route for you.

 

On my first reading of the codex several weeks ago this jumped out as an obvious build and ever since then lists like this have been floating all over the internet. Spamming minimum cost assault squads in razorbacks and supporting with fast Baal Preds and fast Preds and/or Vindicators seems to be the new cookie cutter list. If you want to break new ground and be innovative you’re going to have try doing something more radical. General feedback on Stormravens seems to be that they are such an obvious target that they don’t last more than one turn – if you can find a way to use Stormravens to survive long enough to drop assault troops and dreads into the heart of the enemy lines that would be more ground breaking.

[thundrchickn]

i'm not that big on the stormraven. My first BA list after the release had em and I just don't think they're worth it. They're no way to give them a fighting chance as their armor is too low for the points. I'd play the snot out of em if they had the flyer rules from apoc. That would reduce a lot of the available thing that could shoot em and no one could assault em.

[Brother_Dan'l]

Stormravens make superb fast tanks.

 

Most people seem to think that loading them up as tank killers with lascannons and multi-meltas is the way to go. I disagree. I always keep the Assault Cannons and go with Typhoon ML pods or Multi-meltas and Hurricane Bolters for one of the most flexible killers in the game. And while they may be slightly more expensive than a naked Falcon, they are also more dangerous thanks to variety of weapons options and PotMS. With the E X A C T same AV and movement type/speed. [voice of painful experience]If you Deep Strike them into the middle of the enemy you'll be lucky to take two shots.[/vope] But if you start them on the table when you go first or bring them on from your table edge, when you don't, they are magnificent. The transport capacity is pure gravy in the same way it is on a Falcon. You can get to the flank of any target and throw all sorts of heavy weapons into it. All with very little fear of enemy assault troops and no fear of some twerp with a Bolt Pistol shooting you in the tail. And for killing most tanks I'm a lot happier firing the Assault Cannons, Multi-meltas and up to four S8 missiles into their side armor with my Stormraven than you'll be shooting them in the nose with lascannons. And never forget that the pair of Stormravens can engage four targets compared to only three by the three Predators.

[wookielips]

Storm Raven #1:

-Librarian (shield/blood lance?/unleash rage?)

-SP w Pw

-RAS 10 (2xMG, 1xPF)

-Furioso w EA, 2x Blood Talons

Storm Raven #2:

-Reclusiarch

-SP w Pw

-RAS 10 (2xFlamers, 1xPF)

 

Razorbacks:

 

4x RAS 5 inside RB; 3x TLAssCan, 1x TLLC (for long-range dread/AV12 popping)

Baals:

 

2x Baal Predators w TLAssCan, 1x Flamestorm w dozer

 

______________________________________________________________________________________

 

doesn't get more generic than this. but its got a ton of rending dice into side armor, 32 per turn to be in fact. and if used properly, almost all those dice should be shooting turn 1, definitely by turn 2.

 

to be honest, my stormravens have lived. /shrug. then again, i don't put uber killy stuff inside. just RAS. they would probably be a huge menace on this list, so i'd have to play highly agressive with the baals to make them such a hassle my opponent HAS to shoot them.

 

this list makes me sad cause it does not have my Dante hit-squad in it.

 

probably won't run it.

[thundrchickn]

today I tried out a new list I was working on. Not the Razorback spam list and just wanted to give an update of what I learned and what new stuff I tried.

 

Tycho the psycho is a death company monster. My DC got charged by a wraithlord and an Avatar and he slapped the wraithlord off the table in 1 shot and held the avatar down for 2 turns. If i run a DC he will definately be in it.

 

Outflanked 2 baal preds this afternoon. 1 did absolutely nothing seeing as the dice gods were not with me after the pred showed up. I tried flaming a squad of warwalkers and only managed to stun 2 of em. The entire eldar gun line decided to turn to it's left, ignore evverything else on the table and blow the pred to smitherrines. The other pred came on the very next turn 3 inches from the first pred and this is where you're gonna freak. 14 wounds on the initial flamestorn attack annhilating a 5 man ranger squad and taking a large sdquad of harliquins down to a 3 man. I think there were 10 harliquins to start. The heavy bolters only scored 1 wound (yay /facepalm). My 2 JP assault squads were tied up on my table edge due to some outflanking scorpions. I completely screwed up with my 2 tactical squads and my DC LRR got popped halfway down field where they were met with the big nasties.

 

Things learned today:

 

-wraithguard don't play. they melt faces all day long

 

-JP assaulties are not the best choice of troop against and eldar gun line.

 

-Tycho/chaplain/DC is a pt heaavy beast

 

-Flamestorm cannons are the greatest weapon BA have against harliquins

 

-putting gear ona SP is stupid. never ever ever put him into combat accidentally

 

-blood lance has yet to work out for me

 

 

that is all. good day

[Dingareth]

-wraithguard don't play. they melt faces all day long

 

They move 6" a turn with 12" guns. You couldn't shoot them down?!

 

-JP assaulties are not the best choice of troop against and eldar gun line.

 

Why is that? Eldar have a ton of S6 shots. You know what Blood Angels shouldn't care about? S6 shots. A 3+ armor and then FnP really kills Scatter Lasers and Shruiken Cannons

 

-Tycho/chaplain/DC is a pt heaavy beast

 

Not that Tycho can join that unit, he's not an independent character.

 

-Flamestorm cannons are the greatest weapon BA have against harliquins

 

Wasting AP3 on something that has an Invul? Not for me. I'd figure that a pair of Hurricane Bolter Sponsons would be the way to go to taken down Harlies.

 

-putting gear ona SP is stupid. never ever ever put him into combat accidentally

 

Well, sometimes he's going to be in combat, no matter what you do, so may as well give him a chance to kill something right? Striking at I5, a lot of times you Jump Troops can knock out the enemy before they can swing back.

 

-blood lance has yet to work out for me

 

I'm glad we agree on something. THat said, you were playing Eldar, so trying to get it off while Runes was on the table probably wasn't the best idea.

 

I believe the response I put here is, "Learn to play, lolz." It seems like you have a lot of kinks to work out on this army.

[Rybnick]

I think blood lance has it's place, but psychic powers vs most eldar lists will generally be very underwhelming. Last game I played vs. Eldar they completely neutered Mephiston and then chased him off the table, sad day. I also managed to completely fail a lot of my psychic hood defense rolls so that did't help the situation any.

 

I will say that Eldar pretty much hate autocannons, I'm not sure what it is but it seems like my autocannon fire at those pesky Eldar vehicles almost always pay off. my 2 Ac/LC pred's last game knocked out 2 falcons and a wave serpent in two rounds. I still lost due to those darned starengine boosts for last minute objective contention moves, but was a fun game still.

[Dingareth]

Riflemen Dreads are fantastic against Eldar, and with the amount of Lance Weapons they can field, and the ease of claiming cover with them end up being more resilient than Predators.