Eskrador reviewed

Legatus · June 22, 2010

I have had a problem with the account of the Ultramarines' battle against the Alpha Legion on Eskrador, as described in the Alpha Legion Index Astartes, ever since it had been published. "Of course", some of the readers visiting this forum section might say "you are an Ultramarines fanboy, so naturally you don't like how the Ultramarines get their asses handed to them." But then half of those readers will readily argue that Guilliman may not really have killed Alpharius in that duel, as those events are presented as somewhat questionable (and Alpharius/Omegon was just such a super sneaky ninja). But it is really the entire account about the battle on Eskrador that is presented as questionable in the Index Astartea article. I have been thinking about some of the specific details that have been bothering me, and even "ultra haters" might go "hm, that can't be right..." at one or two of these. Extreme geekdom ahead!

1. Guilliman does not know what is going on!

It is not just that the Ultramarines were at a disadvantage in that battle. It is that they had no clue what was happening. Here are a few excerpts:

"the enemy has launched several hit-and-run attacks on our strike force and caused numerous casualties."

"Communications with the rest of our Legion have been sporadic - our Techmarines think that our communications are being jammed."

"The account goes on to describe how, in the next week, Guilliman attempted a number of counterattacks to regain the initiative, but the Alpha Legion seemed to have prior knowledge of their every move."

Obviously, Guilliman not being capable at all will not be something his critics will have an issue with. But when one considers his history and reputation (or some other story accounts), it becomes a lot less plausible that he was completely unable to deal with the situation. The issue has three layers I will highlight, and after considering them one can even go as far as saying that Guilliman of all the Primarchs would have been the one most prepared for that particular battle.

1. a) Guilliman should have known how to deal with Guerilla tactics!

Consider Guilliman's upbringing:

Guilliman growing up on Macragge:

"By his tenth birthday [Guilliman] had studied and mastered everything the wisest men of Macragge could teach him. His insight into matters of history, philosophy and science astonished his elders, but his greatest talent lay in the art of war."

Guilliman being introduced to the Imperium:

"The Primarch quickly assimilated the many wonders of the Imperium and set about his new role with skill and enthusiasm"

Guilliman encountering some of the tactics used by his Brothers

"Perturabo was a master of fortification whose writings had been retained by Guilliman in his Codex"

Guilliman was a scholar. He was very interested in learning about new strategies and tactics. And it was his life's work to document what he found. The only reason he may not have known about guerilla tactics, jamming of communications, ambushes, spies, sabotage etc. would be that he never encountered anything like that. Not in the historical writings on Macragge, and not during his approximately 200 years of fighting in the Great Crusade. He must never have encountered Eldar, or Hrud, or even just Blood Axe Orks. How plausible is that?

No, even if the Alpha Legion might have managed to keep the upper hand, Guilliman should at least have known how to generally handle such a situation.

1. b ) Guilliman should have known how the Alpha Legion operates!

Where would he have known that from? Well, he had a heated debate with Alpharius about tactical doctrine, and that he had suggested to Alpharius that he should adopt the Codex doctrine in the first place also suggests that Guilliman had an understanding of how the Alpha Legion operated. Critics of Guilliman will often accuse him of merely dismissing the doctrines of other Primarchs out of hand just because they were not "his". But as I have tried to highlight in the previous section Guilliman was very interested in learning about new methods and doctrines. He would not just have dismissed a Primarchs doctrines out of hand without knowing at least the basics of how they operated.

And then there is the battle on Tesstra Prime, where the Alpha Legion showed off what they could achieve with their tactics. Guilliman is recorded as negatively judging their performance, which again suggests that he had reviewed their actions.

So when Guilliman took to the field against the Alpha Legion on Eskrador, he should have had some understanding of what to expect from them.

1. c) Guilliman should have known how to fight in rough mountain terrain!

This is how the Eskrador environment is described:

"The Alpha Legion deployed deep within the harsh mountain range at the pole of the planet. The mountains were riven with gullies, ravines, and high passes that would seriously hamper movement, especially ground vehicles. Alpharius was convinced that the battle would be won by the side that overcame these problems the best through forward planning, coordinated air support, and detachments coping independently of heavy support."

But wait a minute, to anyone more familiar with the background of the Ultramarines that should sound vaguely familiar:

"A genius for military organisation prompted his father to give him command of an expeditionary force in the far north of Macragge. This mountainous area was called Illyrium, a barbarous land which had harboured bandits and brigands for as long as anyone could remember. Although many wars had been fought against them, no-one had ever pacified the region for long. Roboute fought a brilliant campaign and won not only the submission, but also the respect, of the fierce Illyrian warriors."

And just to round that off a description of where the Ultramarines reside:

"Macragge itself is mostly bleak and rocky, with more than three-quarters of its land mass formed from mountainous upland almost entirely devoid of life. The people of Macragge do not live in this inhospitable region, but the fortress of the Ultramarines is built here upon a craggy peak surrounded by impenetrable mountains."

So here are the facts:

- Guilliman's very first military command was against brigands in rough mountain terrain

- No one in the history of Macragge had ever truly defeated the brigands, so Guilliman was not working off of the guide books here. It was his own innovation and brilliance that led him to victory

- The Ultramarines themselves reside in harsh and rough mountain area

Does that really sound like he would be clueless when facing the Alpha Legion in the harsh mountain ranges on Eskrador? Obviously someone could point out that he was not fighting against the Alpha Legion back on his first commmand on Macragge. True, but then he had not been commanding Ultramarines back then either.

I can only assume that the author of that Index Astartes article was not aware of all the intricate details of the Ultramarines' background. Or maybe he really did not intend for the Eskrador account to be entirely factual.

2. Legion resources!

"We have sighted our Thunderhawk gunships overhead engaged in fierce battles with those of the Alpha Legion. Both Legions have, of course, very similar numbers of Thunderhawks, so the aerial battle seems to be a stand-off and leaves no chance of an air evacuation."

Really? Both Legions have, of course, very similar numbers of Thunderhawks? Unless the Alpha Legion turns out to have been more than twice the size of an average Legion as well I find that a bit hard to believe.

3. Better off without their Primarch!

This is how the Alpha Legion fares with Alpharius in command:

"Guilliman's initial deployment followed exactly the doctrines set down in his own writings, and the Alpha Legion moved to trap them. But Guilliman chose the first nightfall to do something unexpected. Breaking his own rules of operation, he led a large portion of his forces with no lines of support or supply deep into the mountains and deployed by Thunderhawk, drop pod, and teleporter in the midst of the Alpha Legion. Guilliman's target was the enemy command center and none other than Alpharius himself."

This is how the Alpha Legion does without Alpharius:

"the enemy has launched several hit-and-run attacks on our strike force and caused numerous casualties."

"We are being harrassed and ambushed every step of the way."

"Guilliman attempted a number of counterattacks to regain the initiative, but the Alpha Legion seemed to have prior knowledge of their every move."

So what is the difference between the two situations? The part at the beginning pointed out that Alpharius had been surprised by Guilliman's initial attack, so that was not something he had planned. So the difference is that while Alpharius had been in command, the Ultramarines were aware of the position of at least certain Alpha Legion forces (specifically Alpharius' own position), while the Alpha Legion was not able to predict the actions of the Ultramarines beyond assuming that they would follow the exact Codex pattern. Then Alpharius get's removed, and suddenly the Alpha Legion turns into invisible ninjas with psychic abilities. Not only are the Ultramarines now never able to know any of their locations or when they will attack, the Alpha Legion in turn can now predict every move of the Ultramarines.

Minor inconsistencies

Rushing in after the Traitor:

"Alpharius chose his battleground, for he knew the Ultramarines would not rest until they had hunted the traitors down."

Does that sound like the man who pleaded with Dorn to not attack the trap laid by the Iron Warriors alone? Who later intervenes because the death of a traitor Primarch would not be worth risking the loss of a loyalist Primarch?

Casualty rates:

"With perhaps 500 Space Marines remaining, the Alpha Legion force made a stand at the head of the valley. Their heavy weapons were deployed well, high on the mountain side, and felled many of our number [3000] as we fought upwards towards them, but their guns were too few and our resolve unswervering."

"the enemy has launched several hit-and-run attacks on our strike force and caused numerous casualties."

Does that sound like the Legion that suffered the least casualties of all the Legions during their campaigns in the Great Crusade?

Rigid structure:

"Guilliman believed in rigid structure and hierarchy and had a firm battle doctrine from which his Legion never wavered. He was in th eprocess of documenting the "correct" tactics and operation of a Space Marine force, tried and tested during his young years of command, and suggested that the young Alpha Legion should adopt this "Codex" behaviour. However, this attitude was anathema to Alpharius's belief in initiative and adaptability, and a heated debate over tactics and ideology ensued."

This is strangely at odds with how the Index Astartes Imperial Fists had described the Codex doctrine:

Prior to them adopting the Codex doctrines:

"Initially, the Imperial Fists were an inflexible formation; each Company had an identical organisation and Company Commanders tended to be unimaginative."

With the Codex doctrines:

"All ranks are able to make tactical decisions and are encouraged to act on initiative. The Imperial Fists combine all arms in flexible balanced battle groups each of which can present an opponent with a diversity of threats then press their advantage so swiftly that the foe is overwhelmed before he can react."

That sounds much more like Alpharius's cup of tea. But then the author would not have had his conflict between Alpharius and Guilliman which he wanted.

Summary of Issues:

1. a) Guilliman did not seem to know how to deal with a guerilla force, but he should have.

1. b ) Guilliman did not seem to know what to expect from the Alpha Legion, but he should have.

1. c) Guilliman did not seem to know how to effectively fight in rough mountain terrain, but he should have.

2) The Alpha Legion and the Ultramarines are said to "of course" have a similar number of Thunderhawks, which seems unlikely given the Ultramarines' size.

3) The Ultramarines are able to act against the Alpha Legion under Alpharius' command but are completely lost when facing the leaderless Alpha Legion. Alpharius is not able to predict the Ultramarines' actions, but the leaderless Alpha Legion is.

Minor: Guilliman seems hell bent on punishing the traitor, where he is presented as more considerate in other sources.

Minor: The Ultramarines suffer heavy losses on different occasions, where other sources had them usually suffering the least casuakties in their engagements.

Minor: The Codex doctrine is described as rigid, opposed to the Alpha Legion's doctrine of initiative and adaptability, where other sources point out that the Ultramarines were the one Legion that wasn't specialised, and instead favoured all-purpose, adaptable forces where individuals were encouraged to act on initiative.

CONCLUSION

I find it very implausible that the Battle for Eskrador happened, at least not as described in that account, for the reasons given above. Either that or the author is to blame for not making the least bit of effort to have the Index Astartes be consistent with the rest of the background.

Indeed, one has to wonder why he chose the Ultramarines and Guilliman in particular to be Alpharius' counterpart. This is from the 3rd Edition Codex Chaos Space Marines, page 32:

"Their pride led to a number of incidents where members of the Alpha Legion clashed with and even fought against members of the other legions in existence at that time. In particular there seems to have been a strong mutual hatred between the Alpha Legion and the Imperial Fists as they had clashed on more than one occasion prior to the Heresy."

So, prior to the Index Astartes, the Alpha Legion was said to have had issues with the Imperial Fists in particular. And indeed they would have made a much more plausible fit for the scenario presented in the Index Astartes:

- Dorn would have critizised Alpharius' methods out of hand merely because of the dishonourable conduct

- The Imperial Fists Legion used rigid formations, which was contrary to the Alpha Legion doctrines

- Dorn would have attacked Eskrador for the sake of defeating a traitor

- The Imperial Fists would have been at a disatvantage against guerilla forces in rough terrain, as they were specialised on sieges and urban warfare

- The Imperial Fists are known to fight on valiantly in spite of heavy casualties, as the account describes

- The Imperial Fists and the Alpha Legion were probably of equal size (and having a similar number of Thunderhawks)

I can only assume that the author did not pick the Imperial Fists because they had already been involvedn in a "trap on a planet" scenario in the Iron Cage incident, and this would have been too similar. But maybe the author just did not put that much thought into it and just felt like the Ultramarines would be a good counter part (in which case I have just spent an hour and a half typing out why I think he was wrong).

Seahawk · June 23, 2010

Good case. :sick:

Gree · June 23, 2010

You forgot the most important detail. The fact that Inquistor Kravin, who presented the case, was heavily implied to be an Alpha Legion traitor himself.

The Emperor's Champion · June 23, 2010

*applause*

Nicely done, Legatus.

Nicely done indeed.

Kreon · June 23, 2010

Good argument. I have no problem if the Ultras get their rear ends kicked, but that really doesn't seem to add up.

Marshal Rohr · June 23, 2010

So your argument is basically the Imperial Fists should've been the antagonists? Yeah, that works better actually.

Its still the AL IA, it wont be fair to the other side, or sensitive to their predilections and histories. For example Dorn gets beat up by Night Haunter, the BL is everyones nemesis, etc.

Rain · June 23, 2010

Heh, and the chupacabra shot Kennedy and then faked the moon landing. Look at the evidence! Seriously though it is not at all infeasible that Gulliman was blindsided by the Alpha Legion. All primarchs are described as being nigh infallible in their own IA's, and I would think that a force of astartes trained in guerrilla warfare are quite a bit more deadly than some bandits on Macragge. Keep in mind that while Gulliman's human army beat up some other humans, Alpharius's little pirate band managed to board Horus's flagship and fight their way to the bridge. Of a bloody Astartes battle barge of the greatest legion of the Great Crusade.

That said, one never knows with the Alpha Legion, but I find it interesting that you take the account of Eskrador to be invented and yet adamantly claim in other threads that there is no controversy about the Alpha Legion's current allegiance, or at least the allegiance of Alpharius (who would probably be alive if Eskrador never occurred). Sounds like wishful thinking for the most part to me, but it is possible, though not for the reasons you claim.

Legatus · June 23, 2010

but I find it interesting that you take the account of Eskrador to be invented and yet adamantly claim in other threads that there is no controversy about the Alpha Legion's current allegiance

Both my claims (Eskrador being fake, Alpha Legion being Chaos) are based on the background sources of several editions. I did not give citations in my case above, as I have assumed most of them to be common knowledge.

Here are a few sources about the Alpha Legion

3rd Edition Codex Chaos Space Marines, page 32:

"Even after the Heresy failed the legion has continued to fight a covert war against the Space Marines and there are dozens of well-documented instances of their raiding parties sallying out from secret bases to catch the defenders of humanity unaware: sabotaging bases, attacking shipping fleets and destroying small outposts with deadly efficiency."

3rd Edition Index Astartes Alpha Legion, Tagline:

The Alpha Legion uses secrecy, spy networks, and traitors to assail its enemies from as many different directions as possible in carefully orchestrated attacks. Hidden within the heart of the Imperium, the Alpha Legion coordinates cultist activities and launches full scale terror attacks.

3.5 Codex Chaos Space Marines, page 40:

Chaos Cultists
The Cults that are sponsored and supported by the Alpha Legion are trained to assault and secure key objectives to ensure subsequent attacks by the Legion achieve complete surprise.

(...)

Daemons: The Alpha Legion cannot normally rely on Daemons remaining stable for long enough to be useful because they are so far from the Eye of Terror. When operating on a world where they have secured the belief of Chaos cults they will gladly add Daemons to the diversity of their attacks. Because of this the Alpha Legion may include Daemon Packs but only Cultist units may carry Icons to summon them. They may use Daemon Princes and Possessed Chaos Space Marines.

Now, I have not read Legion, but even if you think that a single Black Library novel can unmake four Editions of Chaos Space Marines Codices background (including the ones released after the Black Library book), as far as I have understood the book merely gives a different reason for why the Alpha Legion has chosen to side with Horus in the first place. It does not make any statement about the Alpha Legion's allegiance 10,000 years later.

I would think that a force of astartes trained in guerrilla warfare are quite a bit more deadly than some bandits on Macragge. Keep in mind that while Gulliman's human army beat up some other humans, Alpharius's little pirate band managed to board Horus's flagship and fight their way to the bridge.

The point I was trying to make was not that the Alpha Legion could not have had the upper hand in that situation, it was that the Ultramarines under Guilliman should not have been completely clueless. They should have been familiar with fighting non-Astartes guerilla forces, they should have had an idea about the Alpha Legion tactics, and they should have been familiar with how to fight in such terrain.

Octavulg · June 23, 2010

I have had a problem with the account of the Ultramarines' battle against the Alpha Legion on Eskrador, as described in the Alpha Legion Index Astartes, ever since it had been published. "Of course", some of the readers visiting this forum section might say "you are an Ultramarines fanboy, so naturally you don't like how the Ultramarines get their asses handed to them."

It's like you're in my head... :ermm:

It is not just that the Ultramarines were at a disadvantage in that battle. It is that they had no clue what was happening.

Uh...Guilliman knew exactly what was happening. His initial attack on the Alpha Legion command post proves that rather handily, I would say. He decapitated the enemy command structure (though you could argue, and I think I might, that he was intended to do so). You're assuming that knowing something is happening means you're able to deal with it and eliminate its effects.

Hit and run attacks can still be dangerous and damaging, even if expected. Look up the Battle of the Yellow Ford - the English certainly knew what to expect after the first few attacks, but that didn't make them any less dangerous. Communications jamming is, well, communications jamming - even if you know it's there, it can be hard to deal with without the right equipment. Which a strike force like Guilliman's would likely lack. In regard to the counterattacks - what that implies to me is that the Alpha Legion had better intelligence, not that Guilliman didn't know what was going on...

"By his tenth birthday [Guilliman] had studied and mastered everything the wisest men of Macragge could teach him. His insight into matters of history, philosophy and science astonished his elders, but his greatest talent lay in the art of war."

So...a great general cannot lack abilities in one area? All this means is that the wisest men of Macragge wouldn't have done any better than he fighting the Alpha Legion. Guerilla tactics are successful - that's why people keep using them. And they're successful because they're hard to deal with.

"The Primarch quickly assimilated the many wonders of the Imperium and set about his new role with skill and enthusiasm"

The Imperial war machine demonstrates its own tactical incapability with a frequency that, if harnessed as a power source, would light the earth. Furthermore, I must remind you that that role was of a war commander - not a garrison commander. And garrison commanders are usually the ones who get to deal with prolonged battles against hit and run attacks.

Guilliman was a scholar. He was very interested in learning about new strategies and tactics. And it was his life's work to document what he found. The only reason he may not have known about guerilla tactics, jamming of communications, ambushes, spies, sabotage etc. would be that he never encountered anything like that. Not in the historical writings on Macragge, and not during his approximately 200 years of fighting in the Great Crusade. He must never have encountered Eldar, or Hrud, or even just Blood Axe Orks. How plausible is that?

He may also have disdained it. Guilliman's all about courage and honor, remember? And those tactics lack both. The Romans didn't deal well with such tactics, either. Nor did the Greeks. Nor does the Imperium generally. History is full of generals who ignore ways of fighting they disapprove of, even if they're quite capable in other areas. And it means that during his 200 years of fighting the Great Crusade, he had never encountered such forces when they'd read his book, were Space Marines, and were that numerous. You're concentrating on the tactics, when there's other aspects that matter.

In any case, Guilliman's attempts to vary his usual methods suggests that he was, in fact, trying to deal with the tactics used against him - and that it simply wasn't enough.

No, even if the Alpha Legion might have managed to keep the upper hand, Guilliman should at least have known how to generally handle such a situation.

And he tried to handle the situation. The question is "why didn't it work?".

Where would he have known that from? Well, he had a heated debate with Alpharius about tactical doctrine, and that he had suggested to Alpharius that he should adopt the Codex doctrine in the first place also suggests that Guilliman had an understanding of how the Alpha Legion operated. Critics of Guilliman will often accuse him of merely dismissing the doctrines of other Primarchs out of hand just because they were not "his". But as I have tried to highlight in the previous section Guilliman was very interested in learning about new methods and doctrines. He would not just have dismissed a Primarchs doctrines out of hand without knowing at least the basics of how they operated.

I know the basics of how to fight battles. I'm pretty sure most actual soldiers could take me apart tactically. Apprenticeship (particularly contemptuous apprenticeship) is not mastery.

Furthermore, you're assuming that Guilliman was collecting evidence to produce a theory, as opposed to collecting evidence to support his theory. The use of the word 'retained' suggests that there are Primarch tactical musings that didn't make it into the Codex. The Codex is how Guilliman says Astartes should fight - and that does not necessarily encompass all the ways Astartes could fight, for all its size and comprehensiveness. Indeed, his suggestion that Alpharius adopt the Codex suggests that the Codex does not include Alpharius' methods.

And then there is the battle on Tesstra Prime, where the Alpha Legion showed off what they could achieve with their tactics. Guilliman is recorded as negatively judging their performance, which again suggests that he had reviewed their actions.

He is recorded as calling the battle a prodigous waste of time and the Emperor's bolt shells, IIRC. His contemptuous tone equally suggests that he saw what he wanted to see.

So when Guilliman took to the field against the Alpha Legion on Eskrador, he should have had some understanding of what to expect from them.

And his willingness to make use of unorthodox tactics when facing them suggests that indeed, he did. You sell your Primarch short.

"The Alpha Legion deployed deep within the harsh mountain range at the pole of the planet. The mountains were riven with gullies, ravines, and high passes that would seriously hamper movement, especially ground vehicles. Alpharius was convinced that the battle would be won by the side that overcame these problems the best through forward planning, coordinated air support, and detachments coping independently of heavy support."

But wait a minute, to anyone more familiar with the background of the Ultramarines that should sound vaguely familiar:

Indeed. But tell me, which of those did the men of Macragge possess when Guilliman went into those mountains oh-so-many-years-ago? I can't speak for the first, they must have lacked the second, and I can only assume they lacked the third. Admittedly, I might be wrong. Certainly, the length of time it took Guilliman to get back and the apparent difficulty of communication with the capital suggests the army was fairly low-tech, at least in some areas, as does their description as barbarians.

Does that really sound like he would be clueless when facing the Alpha Legion in the harsh mountain ranges on Eskrador? Obviously someone could point out that he was not fighting against the Alpha Legion back on his first commmand on Macragge. True, but then he had not been commanding Ultramarines back then either.

So he was doubly unfamiliar, then?

Really? Both Legions have, of course, very similar numbers of Thunderhawks? Unless the Alpha Legion turns out to have been more than twice the size of an average Legion as well I find that a bit hard to believe.

No doubt the Alpha Legion's preference for small-scale deployments meant they used more of the smaller Thunderhawks and fewer of the larger Stormbirds/what have you. And, of course, they were newer, so might well have been issued new material at about the same rate as the older Ultramarines (or even quicker). The Ultramarines might have older equipment. And the entire Ultramarines legion is not necessarily engaged here.

So what is the difference between the two situations? The part at the beginning pointed out that Alpharius had been surprised by Guilliman's initial attack, so that was not something he had planned. So the difference is that while Alpharius had been in command, the Ultramarines were aware of the position of at least certain Alpha Legion forces (specifically Alpharius' own position), while the Alpha Legion was not able to predict the actions of the Ultramarines beyond assuming that they would follow the exact Codex pattern. Then Alpharius get's removed, and suddenly the Alpha Legion turns into invisible ninjas with psychic abilities. Not only are the Ultramarines now never able to know any of their locations or when they will attack, the Alpha Legion in turn can now predict every move of the Ultramarines.

There's two ways to interpret this: firstly, Alpharius' death meant that the Alpha Legion became even more decentralized and independently capable - in a way, by losing Alpharius they actually reach the full potential of his teachings. Secondly, it was a faked up incident meant to convince the Imperium of Alpharius' death. Neither is inconsistent or impossible.

"Alpharius chose his battleground, for he knew the Ultramarines would not rest until they had hunted the traitors down."
Does that sound like the man who pleaded with Dorn to not attack the trap laid by the Iron Warriors alone? Who later intervenes because the death of a traitor Primarch would not be worth risking the loss of a loyalist Primarch?

That is a possible explanation for why the battle took place, based on speculation by Imperial authorities.

Does that sound like the Legion that suffered the least casualties of all the Legions during their campaigns in the Great Crusade?

In the first, they're attacking an emplaced position. In the second, they're surrounded and on foot in hostile territory. So...yeah? Plus, there's nothing that says they didn't take fewer casualties than another Legion would have in the same circumstances. Less than does not mean none, Legatus.

That sounds much more like Alpharius's cup of tea. But then the author would not have had his conflict between Alpharius and Guilliman which he wanted.

Decentralized command vs. centralized command is a spectrum, Legatus, not absolute. If Guilliman's in the middle, that'd leave plenty of room for Dorn and Alpharius at either end. Furthermore, the conflict between Guilliman and Alpharius would still make sense even if the Codex espoused Alpharius' methods exactly - writing your methods down and putting them in a book turns them into doctrine, and limits flexibility, even if that doctrine is supposed to be flexibility (and I think you would agree that the Codex is a compromise between flexibility and formality, which is only reasonable).

1. a) Guilliman did not seem to know how to deal with a guerilla force, but he should have.

He should not have necessarily known, and he had not dealt with this force in particular.

1. b ) Guilliman did not seem to know what to expect from the Alpha Legion, but he should have.

Guilliman expected the Alpha Legion to fight the way he thought they did, not the way they actually fought. His initial attack demonstrates handily that, actually, he did have an idea what to expect. One perfectly valid interpretation of Eskrador is that it simultaneously validated both Primarchs - Guilliman demonstrated his greater capability, but lost out to Alpharius' tactics in the end. Neither one was as good as they thought they were.

1. c) Guilliman did not seem to know how to effectively fight in rough mountain terrain, but he should have.

Guilliman did not know how to fight the Alpha Legion in mountainous terrain with the Ultramarines. Furthermore, his attempts demonstrate his attempts to dominate the three principles of such warfare - he attempts to deprive the Alpha Legion of their forward planning, he brings in air support, and (generally) he seems to have brought along heavy support where possible. Indeed, these attempts seem to fail because of superior Alpha Legion intelligence gathering - they know what the Ultramarines are doing before they do it. I'd actually wonder how much could be ascribed to some kind of spy in the Ultramarine ranks (likely a mechanical one).

2) The Alpha Legion and the Ultramarines are said to "of course" have a similar number of Thunderhawks, which seems unlikely given the Ultramarines' size.

Presumes various things about equipment and the number of Ultramarines deployed there.

3) The Ultramarines are able to act against the Alpha Legion under Alpharius' command but are completely lost when facing the leaderless Alpha Legion. Alpharius is not able to predict the Ultramarines' actions, but the leaderless Alpha Legion is.

Two explanations offered, neither incompatible with either the themes of the IA or logic.

Minor: Guilliman seems hell bent on punishing the traitor, where he is presented as more considerate in other sources.

One of several possible motivations in the IA. Also, very much up to the individual character interpretation.

Minor: The Ultramarines suffer heavy losses on different occasions, where other sources had them usually suffering the least casuakties in their engagements.

Clearly, the other Legions would have fared even worse. Less is not none.

Minor: The Codex doctrine is described as rigid, opposed to the Alpha Legion's doctrine of initiative and adaptability, where other sources point out that the Ultramarines were the one Legion that wasn't specialised, and instead favoured all-purpose, adaptable forces where individuals were encouraged to act on initiative.

Spectrum, not absolutes. Furthermore, codification is rigid - codification of flexibility is still a form of rigidity.

All in all, Legatus, your argument seems to rely heavily on "Guilliman should have done better/be more awesome". A persuasive argument to this audience, no doubt. But I don't see anything here to make me question the conduct of the battle, let alone its existence.

Legatus · June 23, 2010

It is not just that the Ultramarines were at a disadvantage in that battle. It is that they had no clue what was happening.

Uh...Guilliman knew exactly what was happening. His initial attack on the Alpha Legion command post proves that rather handily, I would say. He decapitated the enemy command structure (though you could argue, and I think I might, that he was intended to do so). You're assuming that knowing something is happening means you're able to deal with it and eliminate its effects.

The impression I got from the account is rooted in the way it is described.

"Communications with the rest of our Legion have been sporadic - our Techmarines think that our communications are being jammed."

"The account goes on to describe how, in the next week, Guilliman attempted a number of counterattacks to regain the initiative, but the Alpha Legion seemed to have prior knowledge of their every move."

Emphasis mine. That does sound more like "what's going on?" rather than "we are employing the appropriate counter tactics, but the Alpha Legion attacks are still costing us dearly".

"By his tenth birthday [Guilliman] had studied and mastered everything the wisest men of Macragge could teach him. His insight into matters of history, philosophy and science astonished his elders, but his greatest talent lay in the art of war."

So...a great general cannot lack abilities in one area? All this means is that the wisest men of Macragge wouldn't have done any better than he fighting the Alpha Legion. Guerilla tactics are successful - that's why people keep using them. And they're successful because they're hard to deal with.

"The Primarch quickly assimilated the many wonders of the Imperium and set about his new role with skill and enthusiasm"

The Imperial war machine demonstrates its own tactical incapability with a frequency that, if harnessed as a power source, would light the earth. Furthermore, I must remind you that that role was of a war commander - not a garrison commander. And garrison commanders are usually the ones who get to deal with prolonged battles against hit and run attacks.

My point was not that this were reasons that should have allowed him to deal with the Alpha Legion. I wanted to establish that Guilliman was not ignorant of tactics he had encountered before, even if he himself would not suggest using them. If he had ever fought against guerilla forces of any kind, he would have included notes on how to best fight them in his Codex. And there is a difference between guides how to fight using guerilla tactics with your noble Legion/Chapter or merely guides how to fight against guerilla tactics. Certainly he would have wanted to include information on how to best counter such tactics, even if he himself would not think of employing similar tactics himself.

So when Guilliman took to the field against the Alpha Legion on Eskrador, he should have had some understanding of what to expect from them.

And his willingness to make use of unorthodox tactics when facing them suggests that indeed, he did. You sell your Primarch short.

And then the Alpha Legion runs circles around the Ultramarines without any chance for them to respond in any way.

Alpharius was convinced that the battle would be won by the side that overcame these problems the best through forward planning, coordinated air support, and detachments coping independently of heavy support."

But wait a minute, to anyone more familiar with the background of the Ultramarines that should sound vaguely familiar:

Indeed. But tell me, which of those did the men of Macragge possess when Guilliman went into those mountains oh-so-many-years-ago? I can't speak for the first, they must have lacked the second, and I can only assume they lacked the third. Admittedly, I might be wrong. Certainly, the length of time it took Guilliman to get back and the apparent difficulty of communication with the capital suggests the army was fairly low-tech, at least in some areas, as does their description as barbarians.

There was no established and tested strategy when Guilliman fought against the mountain brigands back on Macragge. That would suggest that he might be somewhat capable to fight with a Space Marine Legion under similar conditions, even if he had never done that before. There were no known methods to effectively fight a successful campaign in the harsh mountainrange with Macraggan soldiers, but he managed to do so anyway. That he would later be completely helpless when fighting in similar terrain with a Space Marine Legion seems at least somewhat inconsistent.

Really? Both Legions have, of course, very similar numbers of Thunderhawks? Unless the Alpha Legion turns out to have been more than twice the size of an average Legion as well I find that a bit hard to believe.

No doubt the Alpha Legion's preference for small-scale deployments meant they used more of the smaller Thunderhawks and fewer of the larger Stormbirds/what have you. And, of course, they were newer, so might well have been issued new material at about the same rate as the older Ultramarines (or even quicker). The Ultramarines might have older equipment. And the entire Ultramarines legion is not necessarily engaged here.

The account presents it as a given that they have the same number of Thunderhawks, though, without making that dependant on the circumstances.

"Both Legions have, of course, very similar numbers of Thunderhawks, so the aerial battle seems to be a stand-off and leaves no chance of an air evacuation."

That does not sound like "at the moment" or "the circumstances would have it". And remember, I am questioning the account here, and the statement given in that account is reasonably questionable.

There's two ways to interpret this: firstly, Alpharius' death meant that the Alpha Legion became even more decentralized and independently capable - in a way, by losing Alpharius they actually reach the full potential of his teachings. Secondly, it was a faked up incident meant to convince the Imperium of Alpharius' death. Neither is inconsistent or impossible.

(...)

That is a possible explanation for why the battle took place, based on speculation by Imperial authorities.

Oh, it is not "impossible" that the Alpha Legion was much better without their Primarch, or that Guilliman acted more irational in some here instances than in other sources. But how plausible is it if you have a number of other inconsistencies? You are arguing that this "may have been how it happened". It may have. But then I am not arguing that it didn't, but that it "may not have happened" (well, maybe that it "most likely did not happen").

Does that sound like the Legion that suffered the least casualties of all the Legions during their campaigns in the Great Crusade?

In the first, they're attacking an emplaced position. In the second, they're surrounded and on foot in hostile territory. So...yeah? Plus, there's nothing that says they didn't take fewer casualties than another Legion would have in the same circumstances. Less than does not mean none, Legatus.

On the other hand, in the first they unexpectedly raided the Alpha Legion position via drop pods, thunderhawks and teleports with 3000 Ultramarines versus 600 Alpha Legionnaires. I would not usually expect such a scenraio to result in heavy casualties on the side of the Ultramarines.

The thing about "suffering fewer casualties than the other Legions" is that this directly compares them to the Alpha Legion as well. Given your regular heretic/xeno opposition, the Ultramarines would have finished the campaign with fewer casualties than the Alpha Legion. Based on that alone you would not expect the Ultamarines charging en masse up a hill where a small number of Alpha Legion weapon teams is dug in and takes a heavy toll on the charging Ultramarines.

Decentralized command vs. centralized command is a spectrum, Legatus, not absolute.

That is, however, not the impression you get from the description in the Alpha Legion Index Astartes, about Guillimans "rigid tactical doctrine from which he never wavers" which is "anathema to Alpharius's doctrine of adaptability and initiative". Remember, I am criticising the viability of the accounts given in the Index Astartes Alpha Legion. There may be glaring mistakes, or there may be small inconsitencies that add up.

Guilliman did not know how to fight the Alpha Legion in mountainous terrain with the Ultramarines.

As opposed to the Alpha Legion, which knew exactly how to fight in mountainous Terrain against the Ultramarines.

All in all, Legatus, your argument seems to rely heavily on "Guilliman should have done better/be more awesome".

Well, yes, the first point of contention is mainly about how Guilliman should have had a better idea about how to fight a guerilla opponent, about how to specifically fight the Alpha Legion, and about how to fight in the mountainous terrain. The other points are mainly inconsictencies between the accounts given in the Index Astartes Alpha Legion and other sources.

TheDarker · June 23, 2010

A persuasive argument to this audience, no doubt.

If for "this audience" you mean "Ultramarines players" it sounds like we cannot have rational/independent thinking...

About the battle i think that the way of the middle it´s more possible: Guilliman do best that is explained (if we believe the theory of "AL traitors all the way") but still couldn´t win because of the expertise of the AL in this way of fighting. Or maybe the battle didn´t occur, or they met, but have some tea and decided to invent the battle, or, just, everything we have been told it´s a lie.

It´s what you say, Octavulg, spectrum, not absolute. This battle is not black (Guilliman is a jerk, the AL rules) or White (It´s all al lie, Guilliman should have win alone with his awesomeness), most probably, like everything in the empire, it was "grey".

Captain Idaho · June 23, 2010

I've had a problem with this engagement for a long time, though for different reasons. I find it difficult to believe that GW deliberately wrote the article in a fashion that seems unlikely in it's probability due to the factors raised. Some of it but not all, which is just down to inconsistant fluff expansion.

I think the whole account is deliberate propaganda and likely has some truth in it, which BL will probably expand upon, making things alot more even so the winning side does so with superior numbers or luck or betrayal or whatever.

The account is propaganda not because Guilliman has fought a guerilla campaign on his homeworld, so would be very adept at it. Nor is it propaganda that Guilliman was out of character. Or the Ultramarines must have known what they were up against and been at least moderately prepared.

It is propaganda simply because the account came from Inquisitor Kravin, who found it abandoned on a nearby world, the account was from an unknown Ultramarine Sergeant and he refused to allow it to be verified (which he refused before being declared comprimised). We combine this with the knowledge that the Alpha Legion creates operatives out of "normal" humans somehow, so we have to be suspiscious.

If someone has "evidence" that they need to present it. No one can say "I have proof of something, but I'm not going to show anyone," and expect to be believed.

Until we have evidence otherwise we cannot accept it as fact.

@ Legatus: I agree with your summing up, though whether you have just picked up on fluff inconsistantcies or GW did it deliberately remains to be seen!

@ Octavulg: I think we can all agree that a novel from BL will expand on everything. If the Ultramarines get their butts kicked, likely it will be Guilliman that saves them from being routed, if it ends up like the Iron Cage and a bloody stalemate until someone intervenes, this would not be because the Alpha Legion failed, as we know that most HH novels paint things more evenly for both sides.

You know, I bet the whole engagement is only minor. Like a delaying Tactic by the Alpha Legion or something. We know from the numbers quoted, around 3-4 thousand Ultramarines, that the whole Legion weren't there, so where were they? Why didn't the Ultramarines besiege the Alpha Legion on the planet until reinforcements arrived, to prevent them escaping?

These things remain to be revealed, and I'm sure there will be a logically reason (whether we agree is for another thread when the book is released!)

Walter Payton · June 23, 2010

Legatus makes a decent case, so does Octavulg.

Legatus · June 23, 2010

You know, I bet the whole engagement is only minor. Like a delaying Tactic by the Alpha Legion or something. We know from the numbers quoted, around 3-4 thousand Ultramarines, that the whole Legion weren't there, so where were they? Why didn't the Ultramarines besiege the Alpha Legion on the planet until reinforcements arrived, to prevent them escaping?

The 3000 were the strike force Guilliman personally led deep into the mountains to attack Alpharius's position directly. The rest of the Ultramarines were entering the terrain with more conventional methods (so probably mechanised or on foot). The account does not specify whether it was merely a part of the Alpha Legion versus a part of the Ultramarines Legion. It uses blanked terms like "the Ultramarines" and "the Alpha Legion".

Apparently that account assumes that the Ultramarines had a total strength similar to the Alpha Legion. that may suggest that not the whole Ultramarines Legion was present. I suspect, though, that it was more that the author was not particularly aware of all of the Ultramarines' minor background details.

The Emperor's Champion · June 23, 2010

I suspect, though, that it was more that the author was not particularly aware of all of the Ultramarines' minor background details.

Or really ANY details.

Walter Payton · June 23, 2010

To be honest, everyone's chapter get's dealt a duff hand by the fluff. Some details may not make sense, the entire account is certainly ambiguous, the whole thing is suspect, and some stuff definitely does not chime with the Ultramarines' fluff. But, hey, we are the 'greatest of all Space Marine Chapters', after all. We might as well put up with the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune and just accept it. We got our arses kicked. No-one in the Space Wolves forum likes the idea that several Wolves turned to Chaos during the Battle of Parenxes. They still just have to accept it as canon.

Captain Idaho · June 23, 2010

The Ultras get a real beating in the Tyranid Codex plus The Chapter's Due shows the Ultramarines do have their faults, even Calgar. This is different. The whole thing reeks of Chaos. I would like to read something more about Kravin and the whole thing, as if an Inquisitor can be comprimised, well...

Like I said, and any Ultras haters can do with remembering it; it doesn't matter if how truthful something appears, until evidence is supplied it is purely opinion. Kravin refused to submit the evidence for review, and he was "loyal" at the time it was requested.

Rain · June 23, 2010

We might as well put up with the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune and just accept it. We got our arses kicked. No-one in the Space Wolves forum likes the idea that several Wolves turned to Chaos during the Battle of Parenxes. They still just have to accept it as canon.

A voice of reason? On my B&C? It's more likely than you think.

C'mon guys, the IA's are always a bit biased to the group they are about. Consider the endless Iron Warriors vs. Imperial Fists Iron Cage arguements. The IW IA claims that Perturabo was merely toying with the Fists and didn't annihilate them because he wanted to torture them and show the legion how impotent their primarch was at leading them. The Fist IA claims that no matter how hard they tried, the IW's could not finish the Fists and Dorn broke out of all the ambushes etc. By the way, the IW IA also makes the Fists seem a bit incompetent as they systematically have their legion separated and dismantled, while the Fist IA makes the IW seem incompetent as they could not finish a couple pockets of Fists that actually broke through to the center of their compound.

That's just 40k, it doesn't always make "real world sense" but even if it did, the idea that something is false because it seems out of character is fallacious as if Gulliman was real I'm sure he wouldn't be a cardboard cut-out, just like any person he would probably stray from his own habits from time to time and do things against what would otherwise be his better judgment. Especially against a foe like the Alphas, who were extremely competent but were obviously considered a non-threat by Gulliman. Which is actually shown by your own arguments Legatus, as while Gulliman included Perturabo's siege manifestos in the codex and kept them even when Perturabo rebelled (out of implied respect for his ideas) he completely dismissed Alpharius's MO even when Alpharius was his brother.

Octavulg · June 23, 2010

Legatus:

Well, yes, the first point of contention is mainly about how Guilliman should have had a better idea about how to fight a guerilla opponent, about how to specifically fight the Alpha Legion, and about how to fight in the mountainous terrain. The other points are mainly inconsictencies between the accounts given in the Index Astartes Alpha Legion and other sources.

And let's recap those again, shall we?

1. a) Guilliman did not seem to know how to deal with a guerilla force, but he should have.
1. b ) Guilliman did not seem to know what to expect from the Alpha Legion, but he should have.

1. c) Guilliman did not seem to know how to effectively fight in rough mountain terrain, but he should have.

Firstly, all of these boil down to "Guilliman/the Ultramarines did not conform to my expectations". To which I can only say: when something unexpected happens, the universe is not at fault.

Second: All of the above are incorrect in that they assume that Guilliman's experience fighting other foes should be directly applicable to fighting the Alpha Legion, overlooking the fact that the Alpha Legions are pretty much equal to the Ultramarines in every aspect except tactical methods. It should be noted here that most guerilla forces tend to be inferior to their opponents - which is why they fight the way they do. The Alpha Legion, with their parity in equipment, training and capabilities and their rough equivalency in numbers would be unusual in the extreme.

Third: All of the above are incorrect in that they assume Guilliman's experience will in no way be countered by the fact that the Alpha Legion have read the Codex Astartes. Even if Guilliman consciously mixes things up, the entire Legion will be using Codex tactics - which is a serious advantage for the Alpha Legion.

Finally: None of those actually point out what Guilliman should have done differently. The methods are not questioned. The result is questioned. You're not complaining that Guilliman made bad decisions, Legatus. You're complaining that Guilliman lost because you don't think he should have.

As far as I can see, Guilliman makes one mistake in the conduct of the battle, albeit that it's a big one - he assumes the Alpha Legion will fall apart without Alpharius. If he had been right in that particular, he'd probably have annihilated them wholesale.

Otherwise, nothing he does seems to be the wrong choice in the circumstances. He retreats when it becomes clear victory is impossible, and is professional throughout. He was outmaneuvered, plain and simple, and not even necessarily through mistakes on his part - the Alpha Legion are notorious for their intelligence-gathering skills.

The impression I got from the account is rooted in the way it is described.

"Communications with the rest of our Legion have been sporadic - our Techmarines think that our communications are being jammed."

"The account goes on to describe how, in the next week, Guilliman attempted a number of counterattacks to regain the initiative, but the Alpha Legion seemed to have prior knowledge of their every move."

Emphasis mine. That does sound more like "what's going on?" rather than "we are employing the appropriate counter tactics, but the Alpha Legion attacks are still costing us dearly".

The first one sounds like the Techmarines, well, think they're being jammed but are unable to confirm it for some reason. I can think of a wide variety of reasons they couldn't, starting with the fact that they're in the middle of the mountains and working up from there. The techmarines aren't sure if it's jamming or some other phenomenon. They're not sure what's causing the radio interference - which is hardly unreasonable for some technicians in a lightly equipped strike force!

The second one...it sounds like the Alpha Legion seemed to have prior knowledge of the Ultramarines every move. That's not "the Ultramarines didn't know what to do". It's "what the Ultramarines tried was anticipated by the Alphas and neutralized". The latter requires only that the Ultramarines have some method of deducing what the Ultramarines are going to do - which is the Alpha Legion's forte.

2) The Alpha Legion and the Ultramarines are said to "of course" have a similar number of Thunderhawks, which seems unlikely given the Ultramarines' size.

The account presents it as a given that they have the same number of Thunderhawks, though, without making that dependant on the circumstances.

"Both Legions have, of course, very similar numbers of Thunderhawks, so the aerial battle seems to be a stand-off and leaves no chance of an air evacuation."

That does not sound like "at the moment" or "the circumstances would have it". And remember, I am questioning the account here, and the statement given in that account is reasonably questionable.

The choice of the phrase "of course" implies only that the person saying "of course" takes the reason for granted. That reason could be any of those I have mentioned.

For example, if I said: "I, of course, do not feel the Eskrador account was inaccurate," this only says that I feel the reasons for my feeling that way are obvious. What those reasons are remains open to speculation.

Minor: Guilliman seems hell bent on punishing the traitor, where he is presented as more considerate in other sources.

Debatable matter of character interpretation, and only one of two possible motivations presented for him doing what he did - and presented after the fact by Imperial historians, at that.

Minor: The Ultramarines suffer heavy losses on different occasions, where other sources had them usually suffering the least casuakties in their engagements.

The thing about "suffering fewer casualties than the other Legions" is that this directly compares them to the Alpha Legion as well. Given your regular heretic/xeno opposition, the Ultramarines would have finished the campaign with fewer casualties than the Alpha Legion. Based on that alone you would not expect the Ultamarines charging en masse up a hill where a small number of Alpha Legion weapon teams is dug in and takes a heavy toll on the charging Ultramarines.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here: That the Ultramarines should be cannier than to charge after the Alpha Legion when the Alpha Legion are in a superior defensive position? Or that the Ultramarines doing that shouldn't result in many casualties?

If it's the first - OK. What should they have done in order to trap and kill Alpharius? They're on foot, so they have to maintain pursuit. There may be Alpha Legion reinforcements nearby. They have vastly superior numbers compared to their opponents. A frontal assault is quick, it's doable with what they have, and it gets the job done. In this circumstance, it's the right tool for the job. It is the most expedient method of fulfilling the objective. And perhaps season with a bit of righteous fury at the traitors.

If it's the second...you're wrong. That simple. Ultraness is not proof against plasma.

Minor: The Codex doctrine is described as rigid, opposed to the Alpha Legion's doctrine of initiative and adaptability, where other sources point out that the Ultramarines were the one Legion that wasn't specialised, and instead favoured all-purpose, adaptable forces where individuals were encouraged to act on initiative.

That is, however, not the impression you get from the description in the Alpha Legion Index Astartes, about Guillimans "rigid tactical doctrine from which he never wavers" which is "anathema to Alpharius's doctrine of adaptability and initiative". Remember, I am criticising the viability of the accounts given in the Index Astartes Alpha Legion. There may be glaring mistakes, or there may be small inconsitencies that add up.

With the Codex, Guilliman set out to create an all-encompassing book that covered the way Space Marines should fight. With the Codex, Guilliman set out to create a tactical doctrine which would never need to be wavered from. Because that's what such a book is. Its relative flexibility or inflexibility does not matter, because that very concept would be alien to Alpharius. Creating set roles, set methods and standard procedures creates routine - and, to many, inherently excludes things not in the book. And the Alpha Legion are adamantly opposed to routine - they thrive on unpredictability and defying enemy expectations.

A good book can be a great teacher, but it can be an equally great enemy of learning. By saying "what is here is right", it is implicitly said that "what is elsewhere is wrong". And that's not how Alpharius rolls.

3) The Ultramarines are able to act against the Alpha Legion under Alpharius' command but are completely lost when facing the leaderless Alpha Legion. Alpharius is not able to predict the Ultramarines' actions, but the leaderless Alpha Legion is.

Oh, it is not "impossible" that the Alpha Legion was much better without their Primarch, or that Guilliman acted more irational in some here instances than in other sources. But how plausible is it if you have a number of other inconsistencies? You are arguing that this "may have been how it happened". It may have. But then I am not arguing that it didn't, but that it "may not have happened" (well, maybe that it "most likely did not happen").

The problem is, Legatus, that those inconsistencies aren't really inconsistent. The only thing they're inconsistent with is the outcome of the battle you think should have occured.

Two forces of roughly equivalent strength, experience (at least on an individual basis), equipment and ability meet in terrain that favors one side (who have read the other side's book). You would have me believe that the side operating in terrain which does not work well with their methods against an enemy who knows how they fight and who possess superior intelligence-gathering should win. That is simply not logical.

Legatus · June 23, 2010

1. a) Guilliman did not seem to know how to deal with a guerilla force, but he should have.
1. b ) Guilliman did not seem to know what to expect from the Alpha Legion, but he should have.

1. c) Guilliman did not seem to know how to effectively fight in rough mountain terrain, but he should have.

Firstly, all of these boil down to "Guilliman/the Ultramarines did not conform to my expectations". To which I can only say: when something unexpected happens, the universe is not at fault.

I did try to provide the background for my opinion.

Second: All of the above are incorrect in that they assume that Guilliman's experience fighting other foes should be directly applicable to fighting the Alpha Legion, overlooking the fact that the Alpha Legions are pretty much equal to the Ultramarines in every aspect except tactical methods.

All of the above is based on an interpretion of the Alpha Legion Index Astartes where Ultramarines Legion led by their Primarch Roboute Guilliman is completely helpless to do anything at all against another Space Marine Legion. And I have tried to provide reasons why that should not have been the case. The Ultramarines are not merely fighting against the Alpha Legion while being at a disadvantage. They cannot do anything to them. they are harassed and ambushed at every turn, without any chance to act on their own.

Third: All of the above are incorrect in that they assume Guilliman's experience will in no way be countered by the fact that the Alpha Legion have read the Codex Astartes. Even if Guilliman consciously mixes things up, the entire Legion will be using Codex tactics - which is a serious advantage for the Alpha Legion.

Only, the exact move made by the commander using the Codex Astartes is still dependant on how the Commander perceived the situation. If he knows where an Alpha Legion ambush may be waiting, he would act differently than when he did not expect it. If he expected air support to become available within the next few hours he may act differently than when he was certain to be without any kind of support. It is not enough for the Alpha Legion to know the Codex Astartes, they would also have to know what information about the enemy forces and their own forces the commander has.

Finally: None of those actually point out what Guilliman should have done differently. The methods are not questioned. The result is questioned. You're not complaining that Guilliman made bad decisions, Legatus. You're complaining that Guilliman lost because you don't think he should have.

Right. Despite what others may attribute to me, I have indeed not read a copy of the Codex Astartes. I am not trying to argue how Guilliman should have approached the situation. I am arguing that the way the situation is portrayed by the author is inconsistent with or ignorant of other background material. Because that I have read. Perhaps it is just not that well researched or badly written. Or perhaps it is an indicator that the account is indeed fabricated, as the Index Astartes itself suggests.

I am not saying "this is how Guilliman should have approached mountainous terrain". I am saing that he should have known how to approach mountainous terrain.

As far as I can see, Guilliman makes one mistake in the conduct of the battle, albeit that it's a big one - he assumes the Alpha Legion will fall apart without Alpharius. If he had been right in that particular, he'd probably have annihilated them wholesale.

Otherwise, nothing he does seems to be the wrong choice in the circumstances.

No, he is just entirely unable to effectively defend against ambushes and hit-and-run attacks and in turn cannot successfully pull off a counter attack in any way.

The second one...it sounds like the Alpha Legion seemed to have prior knowledge of the Ultramarines every move. That's not "the Ultramarines didn't know what to do".

No, it's "the Ultramarines are uncertain whether or not the Alpha Legion knows about their every move". They think that the communications are being jammed. The Alpha Legion seemed to have prior knowledge or their manouvers. There is a lot of uncertainty involved here, and that does not really give me the impression that the Ultramarines were knowing what was going on. There is no competence described here. And I have been trying to argue that there should have been competence on the side of the Ultramarines.

The choice of the phrase "of course" implies only that the person saying "of course" takes the reason for granted. That reason could be any of those I have mentioned.

"Both Legions have, of course, very similar numbers of Thunderhawks"

i.e.: "The Ultramarines Legion and the Alpha Legions have, of course, very similar numbers of Thunderhawks."

That is just not a statement you would expect to read in a canon description. Unless the Ultramarines Legion kept growing without receiving any higher amount of equipment (save power armour and boltguns). Or unless the Alpha Legion grew to a similar size as the Ultramarines in the short years of their service under their Primarch. Both are not really what I would expect, and I do find it more likely that the author was ignorant about the Ultramarines' background.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here: That the Ultramarines should be cannier than to charge after the Alpha Legion when the Alpha Legion are in a superior defensive position? Or that the Ultramarines doing that shouldn't result in many casualties?

If it's the first - OK. What should they have done in order to trap and kill Alpharius?

I dunno. There were supposedly 3000 Ultramarines drop podding, teleporting or landing via thunderhawk at a position of 600 Alpha Legionnaires which were not expecting an attack at that moment. So how was the Alpha Legion suddenly able to have a lot of heavy gun emplacements in advantageous positions? Why were there not 500+ or so Ultramarines dropped at or teleported to those positions? If it was like 50 or even a 100 Legionnaires in those positions, why wouldn't they still have been obliterated by 1000+ Ultramarines firing with their squads' Laser Cannons or Heavy Bolters?

With the Codex, Guilliman set out to create an all-encompassing book that covered the way Space Marines should fight. With the Codex, Guilliman set out to create a tactical doctrine which would never need to be wavered from. Because that's what such a book is. Its relative flexibility or inflexibility does not matter, because that very concept would be alien to Alpharius. Creating set roles, set methods and standard procedures creates routine - and, to many, inherently excludes things not in the book. And the Alpha Legion are adamantly opposed to routine - they thrive on unpredictability and defying enemy expectations.

But that Codex is certainly presented in the Alpha Legion Index Astartes as the polar opposite of the Alpha Legion doctrine, when the majority of the other Legions actually were mainly focused on one particular kind of warfare, while the Ultramarines with their Codex weren't.

Take the Imperial Fists, or even the White Scars. Compare their scope of strategic and tactical approaches to that of the Ultramarines. But it is the Ultramarines that are given as the anathema to Alpharius' doctrines in their Index Astartes.

The problem is, Legatus, that those inconsistencies aren't really inconsistent. The only thing they're inconsistent with is the outcome of the battle you think should have occured.

Two forces of roughly equivalent strength, experience (at least on an individual basis), equipment and ability meet in terrain that favors one side (who have read the other side's book).

Why did the terrain favour the Alpha Legion? The Ultramarines were familiar with that kind of terrain (or should have been, as I have tried to point out).

You would have me believe that the side operating in terrain which does not work well with their methods

The Ultramarines' method is to be able to deal with any kind of situation. That is the whole purpose behind the "battle companies". The Ultramarines do not have one battle formation that they assume no matter the circumstances or the opposition. Their formations are based entirely on the conditions and oppsoition they are dealing with at the given moment.

against an enemy who knows how they fight and who possess superior intelligence-gathering should win.

For one thing I would assume that Guilliman was aware that Alpharius knew the Codex Astartes, so he should have been able to compensate (which, in the beginning, he did). But I am not even arguing that the Ultramarines should have won. What I have been trying to say is that they should not have been so completely and utterly helpless. The Index Astartes describes it as if it was a situation the Ultramarines were completely unprepared to deal with, where I have tried to point out that this should not actually have been the case.

Vash113 · June 24, 2010

... I must admit I'm totally at a loss as to what you are trying to achieve. The battle happened, it's all over the fluff, no matter how you try to rationalize it you cannot change the fact that it is there in the Ultramarines fluff. There are a lot of mysteries involved in what happened and how and it is one of the most disastrous battles the Ultramarines ever fought but it did happen... its as simple as that.

Legatus · June 24, 2010

CONCLUSION

I find it very implausible that the Battle for Eskrador happened, at least not as described in that account, for the reasons given above. Either that or the author is to blame for not making the least bit of effort to have the Index Astartes be consistent with the rest of the background.

The account of that battle is presented as questionable by several imperial authotities in the Index Astartes Alpha Legion. But I am not content with simply pointing out that it is presented as questionable. I wanted to point out a few specific reasons why one might doubt the accuracy of that account.

Octavulg · June 24, 2010

All of the above is based on an interpretion of the Alpha Legion Index Astartes where Ultramarines Legion led by their Primarch Roboute Guilliman is completely helpless to do anything at all against another Space Marine Legion. And I have tried to provide reasons why that should not have been the case. The Ultramarines are not merely fighting against the Alpha Legion while being at a disadvantage. They cannot do anything to them. they are harassed and ambushed at every turn, without any chance to act on their own.

Among other things, the Ultramarines in that battle attack the enemy command post and kill either a Primarch or a close facsimile thereof. That's a pretty strong showing. Their later difficulties are perfectly reasonable: what are they supposed to attack? The Alpha Legion are decentralized, have excellent intelligence, and presumably have a better grasp of the local terrain (if only somewhat). That's the problem with fighting guerillas - there's not really much to fight.

The problems the Ultramarines face here are common to armies for centuries. And their reaction is one of the better ones. They don't hang on trying to win something unwinnable which carries no real benefits with victory. They cut their losses, get out, and go do something important. Which is the appropriate response to the situation.

The Ultramarines are not portrayed as helpless in this battle. No more than any other army fighting a guerilla force. History is full of examples - look at Vietnam, Algeria, Afghanistan on dozens of occasions. This is what happens when conventional armies fight the unconventional. Especially when the unconventional is as well-equipped and capable as the conventional.

Only, the exact move made by the commander using the Codex Astartes is still dependant on how the Commander perceived the situation. If he knows where an Alpha Legion ambush may be waiting, he would act differently than when he did not expect it. If he expected air support to become available within the next few hours he may act differently than when he was certain to be without any kind of support. It is not enough for the Alpha Legion to know the Codex Astartes, they would also have to know what information about the enemy forces and their own forces the commander has.

Because the Alpha Legion are notoriously weak at gathering intelligence about enemy forces, especially forces they were once allied with. It's not like the depth of their preparation has actually been used as a criticism of them or anything like that.

I am not saying "this is how Guilliman should have approached mountainous terrain". I am saing that he should have known how to approach mountainous terrain.

But the only proof available as to whether he did things right or not is the results that were achieved (and the fact that he's a Primarch). And it is the result you disagree with. Your proof that he did it wrong is that he failed the way he did. Which is a little circular.

No, he is just entirely unable to effectively defend against ambushes and hit-and-run attacks and in turn cannot successfully pull off a counter attack in any way.

You can do everything right and lose a battle, Legatus, if the deck is badly stacked enough. And I would argue the deck was stacked quite heavily against the Ultramarines.

No, it's "the Ultramarines are uncertain whether or not the Alpha Legion knows about their every move". They think that the communications are being jammed. The Alpha Legion seemed to have prior knowledge or their manouvers. There is a lot of uncertainty involved here, and that does not really give me the impression that the Ultramarines were knowing what was going on. There is no competence described here. And I have been trying to argue that there should have been competence on the side of the Ultramarines.

Legatus? The Ultramarines are not incompetent in this IA. And if I'm saying the Ultramarines aren't incompetent, they're not.

What they are is out of their element and in an inferior position, against a foe who is in their element and in a superior position.

That is just not a statement you would expect to read in a canon description. Unless the Ultramarines Legion kept growing without receiving any higher amount of equipment (save power armour and boltguns). Or unless the Alpha Legion grew to a similar size as the Ultramarines in the short years of their service under their Primarch. Both are not really what I would expect, and I do find it more likely that the author was ignorant about the Ultramarines' background.

...Alternately, any of the explanations I offered that don't involve conspiracies on the part of the author.

I dunno. There were supposedly 3000 Ultramarines drop podding, teleporting or landing via thunderhawk at a position of 600 Alpha Legionnaires which were not expecting an attack at that moment. So how was the Alpha Legion suddenly able to have a lot of heavy gun emplacements in advantageous positions? Why were there not 500+ or so Ultramarines dropped at or teleported to those positions? If it was like 50 or even a 100 Legionnaires in those positions, why wouldn't they still have been obliterated by 1000+ Ultramarines firing with their squads' Laser Cannons or Heavy Bolters?

Simple answer - Alpha Legion had transports, Ultramarines didn't. Thus they moved up to a defensible point and dug in (but couldn't actually escape due to the terrain being too rough). I don't recall anyone saying anything about emplacements - just heavy weapons. Perhaps they had some escape routes planned, allowing them to thus gain a little distance over the Ultramarines (but not enough to actually escape, since the Ultramarines had expected this).

And then, of course, there's the question of whether or not it was staged.

Also, that detachment would have had about 400 heavy weapons, assuming codex formations.

But that Codex is certainly presented in the Alpha Legion Index Astartes as the polar opposite of the Alpha Legion doctrine, when the majority of the other Legions actually were mainly focused on one particular kind of warfare, while the Ultramarines with their Codex weren't.

Take the Imperial Fists, or even the White Scars. Compare their scope of strategic and tactical approaches to that of the Ultramarines. But it is the Ultramarines that are given as the anathema to Alpharius' doctrines in their Index Astartes.

The Ultramarines are the legion which attempts to dictate that their way is correct. There is no conflict with the other Legions because they don't interact on the issue. The conflict is over control as much as it is ideology.

Why did the terrain favour the Alpha Legion? The Ultramarines were familiar with that kind of terrain (or should have been, as I have tried to point out).

Because Codex Space Marines typically fight in straight-up, direct, quick engagements that crush the enemy in a few decisive engagements. And mountainous terrain makes that very difficult, offering places to hide, cover and making transport tricky. All of which benefit the Alpha Legion's style of fighting more than the Ultramarines (and the defender).

tl;dr: The Ultramarines aren't incompetent, they're in a bad situation which they handle as best as they practically can. The Alpha Legion demonstrate that playing to your strengths is a winning strategy. History repeats itself.

Marshal Wilhelm · June 24, 2010

Legatus, I think you just need to take this (Eskrador) on the chin.

GW does have wobbly fluff consistency. You don't have to like it. You can even say "nope, not listening, lah lah lah". But it is written and it is all we have to go by.

BA players cringe at the mention of James Swallows. If what they say is true (because why would I bother reading a book that 99% of BA players can as rubbish :lol: ) I think I would too :P

Whenever fluff comes along that you don't like, you can it. It is cool if you really love Guilliman, but lionising him and naysaying anything that contradicts how you want this fantasy realm to play out seems hopefully delusional, if you catch the gist of what I am trying to say without it coming across as rude. Who are you naysaying? - the very guys who wrote the only 'facts' we have.

So you can Eskrador.

Then people talk about each Legion having some 100K Marines. You say "nope, it's 10K" and explain that it is established fluff. "IA says...." as an appeal to authority.

But Eskrador is IA too.

Why is it when you think something is so, it is so, and you appeal to IA or C:UM 2nd ed as fact.

When you think something is rubbish, it is rubbish, regardless of it being IA.

Really you don't care what GW's stable writes, as long as it coincides with Legatus's vision, it is right. If it doesn't coincide with Legatus's vision, it is wrong.

You don't actually adhere to GW being the dispensers of fluff canon. You exalt yourself as Fluff Lord, the rubber-stamper of the way it is in 40K.

I would love if like Babylon5, they had one dude writing a fluff structure, perhaps a pyramid, or overlapping pyramids. Everyone writing fluff would only get it published if it coincided to the Master Plan.

I would love for numbers to be fixed, Death Guard to only be written of as having painted-white armour (pre-heresy), Necrons not to be buddies with BA against Tyranids and so forth.

Why am I saying this?

Because I have seen you debate long and hard with SW players about this and that, but when someone makes the same appeal that you make to them, you pooh-pooh it and dismiss it out of hand.

That is not Queensbury ol' chap ;)

I have probably sounded harsh or rude, which isn't my goal. *shrugs shoulders*

The Emperor's Champion · June 24, 2010

Nope, Legatus is right.

The thing about this fluff that Legatus doesn't "like" is that it's NOT necessarily canon. It deliberately puts its own validity in question and makes sure there are no facts.

The fact that Legatus has found a MASSIVE list of problems with it makes it seem fairly likely that the whole thing is a bunch of useless traitor mumbo-jumbo. And really, that's the best we can make of it.

We can't outright disprove it or prove it.

We can't say if the IA is a cleverly disguised lie written to be ambiguous or if it was a poorly written story meant to be true but cast doubt on itself... Either could be the case where the Alpha Legion is concerned.

Lies wrapped in lies, rolled in truth, boxed in irrelevant facts, painted with some half-truth....with a side of lies.

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