Dark Angels against Blood Angels or...

[Rabid Chipmunk]

Sorry to intrude in your forums as I am a hardcore Blood Angel (going on 15yrs now with the red tide of doom), but my friend and frequent opponent really needs your help. The past few weeks, he hasnt won a game - most are over or close to it by turn 4 - and he is getting really really frustrated. So, I am coming to you to see what Dark Angel players would do to counter my army. I'll post our respective lists, what I've noticed in deployments, his tactics/targeting priority, and my thoughts on that. Anything you could share, whether its altering his list, deployment, whatever, would be greatly appreciated. I don't want him to quit. He's fun to play against, just been getting slaughtered ALOT recently and is losing heart.

 

My Blood Angel List (2000pts)

HQ

Reclusiarch with meltabombs

Elites

2 Sanguinary Priest

Furioso with frag cannon

Furioso with blood talons

Troops

9 Death Company, 1pf, rhino

5 Assault marines, 1 meltagun, 1 pf, razorback TLAC

5 Assault marines, 1 meltagun, 1 pw, meltabombs, razorback las/tlpas

10 Assault Marines, 2 meltaguns, pf

10 Assault Marines, 2 meltaguns, pw, meltabombs

Fast Attack

Baal with Firestorm, dozer blades

Baal with TLAC, hb sponsons

Heavy Support

6 Devastators, 2 missile launchers, 2 plasmacannons

 

Sometimes I swap out the 2 furioso's and drop a couple meltaguns for Sanguinary guard and a jump packing Sanguinary Priest

 

His Dark Angel List (2000pts)

HQ

Librarian - not sure on gear

Elites

5 Terminators 1AC

5 Terminators 1AC

5 Terminators 2TH/SS, 3LC

TROOPS

5 tac, plasma cannon- razor las twin plas

5 tac, plasma cannon- razor las twin plas

FAST ATTACK

3 Bikes 2 meltaguns, pw

3 Bikes 2 meltaguns

HEAVY SUPPORT

Pred with lascannons, las sponsons

LRC

 

There may be something else in the list but apparantly, if there is, its so inconsequential that I have forgotten it.

 

Some things I've noticed. I'm not scared of the termies. He deepstrikes them in piecemeal, usually on a side or corner. My army is fast, and if he puts his termies out on an edge, I simply move out of range or commit a single unit as a speed bump. He also starts the troops in their transports, moves, then deploys them. Sometimes not until turn 2 or 3. I dont think thats a good move at all. I'm in his face by then. They've only ever gotten one shot off in a game and sometimes none at all. I also feel he should run one bike squad instead of the 2 small ones. Being the size they are, they get one shot, then they're dead. I think he should run his bikes at 5 or more, and assault with them when the chance presents itself. So far, the LRC has been so ineffective that I completely ignore it. The cargo can be lethal, but he goes after my dreads with them, which is EXACTLY what I want him to do. he seems to deploy his force either in a block in the center of his zone, or in a line across it, one unit right next to another. Both cases, he deploys as far forward as possible.

 

Now on my end, some things to consider. I am aggressive. I know my force is the deadliest at 12" or less. I also do not rely on any single unit. Everything is expendable and as such, I present more targets than he can shoot at. Invariable, his target priority seems to be Flamestorm Baal and the dreads. Again, that plays into my hands. I WANT him to shoot those units. To be fair, I don't give him much else to shoot at. The Baals, Rhino, and Razors form a wall of armor followed by all the jump marines, who actually have seen little action. Its the rest of the army that tears him up. I usually deploy in 2 blocks and converge on a single flank, or hit his middle and swing to a flank.

 

Overall, I think he needs to find a way to beef up some of his units, and either drop some termies or use them differently.

 

So, if you were him and facing me, what would you do? Other than ask me to help him rewrite his codex so the points/options are more inline with other codexes (which he has asked, and I'm currently doing) Anything and everything would be greatly appreciated. I don't want to lose a fun opponent. He is a great sport, just not having any fun with the way things are going currently.

[the akratic]

I think there's a number of things he can do to make not only his list, but also his tactics better.

 

FIrst, i'd drop the libby. Unfortunately dark angel librarians are the worst in the game. I would recommend getting Sammy on a Jet bike. That way, his small bike units become scoring which can come in really handy with some turbo-boosting late in the game to grab objectives.

 

I'm not sure why he's movig things forward, especially when playing against a list like yours. It'd make much more sense to utilize those twin-linked lascannons on the razor backs (I assume that'd what you meant - we DA can't get the las/twinplas set up) to take care of some of those armor threats early, while the plasma cannons use their 36" range. Personally i'd think the Razor's would be best used to get the small tac squads away from trouble as it comes towards them, not to drive close to it. . . Sammy on Jetibike would be super useful dropping that highly accurate plasma canon shot from 36" away, while using his turbo-boosting and mobility to keep out of range of those nasty assault cannons and things which will be returning fire.

 

There's nothing seriously wrong with his list, although maybe some things I'd do differently. I think it's his tactics that need to be readjusted, maybe someone else can help with that.

[Leonaides]

Just snooping by, and as a non-DA player my opinion is probably off a bit but it looks like he's spent far too many points on termies, but wihtout the points to make them effective against you. Deep-striking is a bad idea as you can pounce on him as he cant assault that turn, or just move away to ignore his termies (as you already noted).

 

Too few troops choices, can he even have a plasma cannon in a 5 man tac squad?

 

Expensive Predator, without enough other vehicle targets to give it safety in numbers...

 

He's got nothing that kicks out lots of low AP/high rate-of-fire shots (vindi or multiple dakka preds?), so will struggle to deal with your numbers.

 

An older codex, certainly. A somewhat poorly-thought-out list, definately.

[Gillyfish]

I can understand his feelings - it's that situation where you just feel that nothing you do will make a difference. The joy in the game rather goes out for you at that point!

 

Nevertheless, he has options, but I would change some of the things in his army. His army has a clear 'plan' to it. Use the terminators as your strike force and the remainder of the army as a firebase. That's fine, but you're army excels at speed and hitting hard. He needs to change his plans so that your army arrives piecemeal and then he needs to outlast you. He knows you need to get within 12" or closer, so why not have a Vindicator waiting for you? Death Company, assault marines, whatever you move into that 24" range will be vulnerable. Your force is small, so the plasma cannon are a good choice, but he also really ought to add in some multi-melta attack bikes to harass your vehicles and dreads. I'd ignore your dreads and go for the transports or Predators. that leaves you a choice - ignore the attack bikes or divert a unit to kill them (through shooting or through assault) - if you do that, he's begun to break up your attack. I'd also consider a Land Speeder to either shoot up your assault marines and/or to draw away your Death Company (it could lead them a merry chase too!). Disabling your transports is key, really, particularly the Death Company Rhino.

 

His Deathwing could either be deployed in his gunline (or gradually falling back towards it). They could also be used as a counter-assault unit, but I'd be inclined to try a large tooled up unit of veterans for counter-attacking ability. Add a Chaplain to them, and any unit that's made it to his lines will be toast (with the exception of the Death Company). Make that Chaplain an Interrogator, add a command squad with a Sacred Standard and suddenly everyone is Fearless to boot. So not only will the unit you've attached not run, but they'll be vulnerable to the counter-charge.

 

The use of sacrificial transports like Rhinos to block your advance is also viable, chanelling your forces onto his guns (to an extent).

 

So in summary, his mobile units should harass you and work with the firebase to reduce your mobility. Once that's accomplished, shooting at the fastest units is the priority. Add in some nasty close range firepower like a Vindicator (or two!) and you will pay for any attack that isn't co-ordinated. Basically, it's a defensive game, aimed at turning your strengths against you. Any surviving Ravenwing can also deny you objectives in your half of the table, once their primary mission is done.

 

That would be my take on the situation, but I'm by no means the best general here.

[Rabid Chipmunk]

The libby and Sammael is something we have discussed. As he does not own the sammy model, I think I'll see if he's inclined to go with the Interrogator Chaplain.

 

Yeah, typo on the razorbacks. sorry, they are Twin las.

I know he's been kickin around the idea of a vindicator for a bit. I think the reason he hasnt gone for it yet is I dropped mine from my list as I found the devastators to be much more effective for what I needed the Heavy support to do. The vindi was just too hit or miss for my taste. I'll let him borrow mine. Hopefully, it serves him better than it served me.

 

He doesnt have access to attack bikes - yet. I have the bits to maybe convert/build 2 for him. I assume multi-melta landspeeders would be an adequate substitute?

 

Veterans is something that never crossed our minds. I'll have to check out his dex and look into that. If they have staying power and some hth punch, probably be worth dropping some termies from the list to make room for them. (Sacred Standard I like. not for what it does, but I know he'll want me to paint it up for him)

 

To re-iterate what you all have shared. Deploy smarter, maybe further back in his deployment zone to get an extra round of shooting and make me travel that much further to get to grips with him. Target my trasports 1st. 3 transports hold half my army so making them walk yet again buys into the shoot me up before I get there philosophy. Keep one or two counter attack units near his line to smash into my force if/when needed. I know if I was facing my army, the razors/rhinos die first. Not only does it make half my army walk, but it eliminates the moblie cover for the 20 assault marines coming in behind them.

 

This is good so far. You all are hitting on the same ideas and options I was kicking around for him. I don't know much about DA, so its good to see what you guys have to say. I think the big thing for him is adjusting his playstyle. Before the new BA dex hit the scene, he was used to being just as agressive as I am and the games were close for the most part, sometimes he won, sometimes I did.

 

Thank you all very much. I'll dig out his codex and check up on his models and see what we can do. Might have another game against him Friday.

[Gillyfish]

Just don't forget that the Ravenwing he has should be used to harass your vehicles and draw away your Death Company. Attack bikes are definitely worth it as they're pretty cheap, always count as units of one model and can be bought alongside his existing Ravenwing squads. He won't be able to take two speeders unless he drops one of the bike squads, but otherwise, yes, they would do the trick in the meantime and would be harder for you to assault (a great way of drawing off the Death Company!).

 

He could take Belial to make his terminators scoring and give everyone Ld 10, but I'm not sure in the context of your armies whether that would be worth it. That said, Belial opens up the possibility of a terminator apothecary and a standard to give everyone in that squad an additional attack. If they're armed with a large number of lightning claws, suddenly that unit becomes excellent in close combat.

[ShadowSeraph]

Some thing he can try, which may also free up some points for more flexibility would be to Drop the Librarian (really, they are not that useful, unless you run Zek, and even then) Drop one of the TDA squads (the second AC squad), and the downgrade the LRC to a standard LR, and load the CCTDA in there. tha tway you still get the Deathwing assault with the one squad to drop in and maybe do a little damage to your troops, while the other just hual ass to intercept your Death Company or something.

 

From there, i would drop the second bike squad and either bring an MM AB or LS, Run the Tac Squads as full 10 man with PGs, and give the Sarge either a PS or PF. Now in my opinion he should either bring a 5man Dev squad with either 4PCs, or 2PCs and 2 HBs, or maybe his own Assault squad to act as a Countercharge unit, or maybe a CC vet squad with some power weapons.

 

that way, he keeps the Pred, LR, and both Razorsbacks to deal with most of your armor, with the Bike squad pulling double duty as a harraser/Anti-armor unity, while also adding a little more beef to his scoring units and backing them up with long range anti MEQ support. I'm not totally sure how much that leave for HQ choices, But me being more of a GreenWing player, by first choice would be Either Azrael or a standard Master, with an Interrogator Chaplin in TDA running close Second. Hell, put the chappie with the CC Termies and watch the fun ensue.

 

Now i'll admit that i haven't played as long as alot of people in here, and that some of these guys could pick out any of the big gaping holes in my ideas, but i feel the force is potent and flexible, and i would try it against your list and feel i had a chance to win. Tactics is just something you learn over time, so just try and keep him in there, because you can't learn anything if you give up and quit