thundrchickn Posted June 25, 2010 Share Posted June 25, 2010 So I running some 500 pt games with this big tourney playing guy who's trying out his new Guard stuff (new army for him and he likes small games) when the manager at my local GW store comes up and says he has this theory of what really happened to the emperor. I was whooping up on these guard dudes like crazy and said very loudly "your gonna need the emperor himself to save you" which prompted the manager. His story was that the emperor shot Sanguinius in the back because some picture portrayed the bullet wound coming out of Sanguinius from the direction of the emperor and that his motive for it was if horus (one of his most trusted followers) could turn why not the other most loyal follower Sanguinius. Since the Red thirst was around before the heresy but hadn't devolved into the rage yet, the emperor(the most powerful psyker in the universe) imprinted the image of the battle of Sanguinius into all the future BAs. That would make the emperor the great traitor and also responsible for the black rage. I couldn't think of any hard proof to refute this. I thought of the Sanguinor but he is the embodiment of the BAs will and not a free to do as he wishes individual. After thinking for a little while about this, what if the emperor did kill Sanguinius. Shot him in the back and then took on Horus. Since the emperor is the ultimate whoopin stick he should have stomped Horus into non exsitence. But what if it did happen like this but Sanguinius wasn't dead yet and created the Sanguinor. The perfect embodiment of his will with extraordinary physical and psychic ability and use that to cripple the emperor but died in the process before finishing the job. With the last coherent effort of the emperor he creates the black rage so that no other BA could "summon" the Sanguinor and use it to destroy the Imperium since all BA believe the lies of the emperor. He who lives to tell the tale writes the history books. mind=blown Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Fury Posted June 25, 2010 Share Posted June 25, 2010 Heresy!!!!! The Inquisithion should seek you our for talking such words out load! And the reason that Horus was so powerful, even if comparison to the 'giant woopin stick' Emperor, is that the primarches were a clone of the Emperor himself. Then on top of that, Horus was gifted with additional power from the Chaos gods for his allegiance....traitor scum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Bloodwolf Posted June 25, 2010 Share Posted June 25, 2010 But Sanguinius and Horus didn't have a shoot out they batteled in cc because that's how Sanguinius caused a weakness in Horus' armor so The Emperor could kill Horus (or so it's said) I mean if they fought in cc the artist who made the peice (I assume it's the famous one) woulden't have put a bullet hole in Sanguinius. Sanguinius was impaled (I think) which would explain why he had the hole in his back as the blade (or claw most likely) went all the way through. And if I remember right neither Horus or The Emperor are depicted with bolters or storm bolters in that drawing. Plus The Emperor came in after Sanguinius was killed not during the battle so when would he have shot him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thundrchickn Posted June 25, 2010 Author Share Posted June 25, 2010 My alligiance is to Sanguinius, the greatest of Primarchs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallus Posted June 25, 2010 Share Posted June 25, 2010 Sounds like your store manager eatin silly cakes. The official canon is that the Emperor walked in to Horus' chamber to find Sanguinius lying dead at Horus' feet. "The Warmaster bestrode the body of a broken angel.... Face glowing with internal bloodlight, Horus turned the Emperor and spoke. 'Poor Sanguinius. I offered him a position of power in the new order. He could have sat at the right hand of a god. Alas he chose to align himself with the losing side. He gave me little alternative but to kill him. With my bare hands I throttled the life from him.' " The picture of Sanguinius with a chest wound....did it not occur to the manager that it could have been caused by one of the bloody massive talons on Horus' claw? :cuss Also every picture drawn of the fight (and we all know it's not real lol) has the Emperor armed with a sword and a power fist....with not a pistol in sight anywhere. Also, the Emperor did 'stomp Horus out of existence'....see below.... 'His eyes locked with Horus and saw understanding there. Then with full cold knowledge of what he was doing, the Emperor destroyed the Warmaster.' Hehe! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jma037 Posted June 25, 2010 Share Posted June 25, 2010 He who lives to tell the tale writes the history books. Technically only DORN was the one that lived. (minor characters not included) Think on THAT for a moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haunter! Posted June 25, 2010 Share Posted June 25, 2010 But Khorne hates psykers and sorcerers. The flaw is a psychic imprint, is it not? Wasn't Sanguinius also a psyker with clairvoyance as one of his gifts? I doubt Khorne has anything to do with this. This thread is full of heretics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thundrchickn Posted June 25, 2010 Author Share Posted June 25, 2010 Sounds like your store manager was smoking pot in half kilo amounts. The official canon is that the Emperor walked in to Horus' chamber to find Sanguinius lying dead at Horus' feet. "The Warmaster bestrode the body of a broken angel.... Face glowing with internal bloodlight, Horus turned the Emperor and spoke. 'Poor Sanguinius. I offered him a position of power in the new order. He could have sat at the right hand of a god. Alas he chose to align himself with the losing side. He gave me little alternative but to kill him. With my bare hands I throttled the life from him.' " The picture of Sanguinius with a chest wound....did it not occur to the manager that it could have been caused by one of the bloody massive talons on Horus' claw? :cuss Also every picture drawn of the fight (and we all know it's not real lol) has the Emperor armed with a sword and a power fist....with not a pistol in sight anywhere. Also, the Emperor did 'stomp Horus out of existence'....see below.... 'His eyes locked with Horus and saw understanding there. Then with full cold knowledge of what he was doing, the Emperor destroyed the Warmaster.' Hehe! Like I said the winner writes the history books. All this cannon could be complete fiction on the part of Dorn. Maybe he was happy to see Sanguinius die since he was so affected by the warp. Space marines kill mutants with psychic powers. Sanguinius had wings and could see the future.Maybe Sanguinius saw it coming and went on anyways knowing that Dorn would cover up the emperors treachery which would hold the empire together. or maybe he was the first to no of the tyranids and their goal of seeking the emperors psychic influence on the warp and that the Nids would destroy humanity. BTW anyone notice the banner at the top. THE DORNIAN HERESY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Ravensong Posted June 25, 2010 Share Posted June 25, 2010 Oho, sir, I do believe you are referring to the GW at Layton Plaza, The greatest GW of them all. And I will say again here what I said there: The Romans did it but we're going to blame the Jews anyways. But in all seriousness, being stabbed in the back by daddy is always a terrible way to go, and at the end of the day it does make a bit more sense than "It was so upsetting that the dna of our geneseed was spontaneously re-written to make us really mad about the whole event." I guess the only way to know for sure is to pull the plug on the emperor and see if the BA chill out. And speaking of the Dornian Heresy, I'm also pretty stoked about it, as soon as I heard about it I wanted to make a Slaneeshi Raven Guard army, but apparently they're supposed to be Tzeench. I'm also tempted to run the Khorne Space Wolves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thundrchickn Posted June 25, 2010 Author Share Posted June 25, 2010 Oho, sir, I do believe you are referring to the GW at Layton Plaza, The greatest GW of them all. And I will say again here what I said there: The Romans did it but we're going to blame the Jews anyways. But in all seriousness, being stabbed in the back by daddy is always a terrible way to go, and at the end of the day it does make a bit more sense than "It was so upsetting that the dna of our geneseed was spontaneously re-written to make us really mad about the whole event." I guess the only way to know for sure is to pull the plug on the emperor and see if the BA chill out. And speaking of the Dornian Heresy, I'm also pretty stoked about it, as soon as I heard about it I wanted to make a Slaneeshi Raven Guard army, but apparently they're supposed to be Tzeench. I'm also tempted to run the Khorne Space Wolves. wussup man. good to have some one around I know a little. I think everyone else is reporting me to the ordo hereticus right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Ravensong Posted June 25, 2010 Share Posted June 25, 2010 Well, we're all BA and BA successors here, considering that, at this point in the story line, every last one of us picked up and ran back to Baal without so much as a warning I'd imagine there are more than a few inquisitors quite pissed with us right now anyways (Especially those of us who'd been forcibly enlisted into an inquisitors force in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonaides Posted June 25, 2010 Share Posted June 25, 2010 well, there was 1 person present who had a ranged weapon- go look at abbadon, observe the talon of horus, then tell the class whats on the back of the talon. Yes, a storm bolter! Other than that, store managed spouting whole cloth in my opinion... Honestly, conspiracy theories were much better when people put some thought into them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thundrchickn Posted June 25, 2010 Author Share Posted June 25, 2010 well, there was 1 person present who had a ranged weapon- go look at abbadon, observe the talon of horus, then tell the class whats on the back of the talon. Yes, a storm bolter! Other than that, store managed spouting whole cloth in my opinion... Honestly, conspiracy theories were much better when people put some thought into them. i haven't seen the photo so I can't tell what type of weapon it was. Everything else seems believable sorta. A lot of people, marine chapters included never trusted Sanguinius just because he had wings. Everyone thought Horus was the greatest thing since sliced bread but because of him the position of warmaster was left vacant because no one was trusted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Captain Devlonir Posted June 25, 2010 Share Posted June 25, 2010 Well, we're all BA and BA successors here, considering that, at this point in the story line, every last one of us picked up and ran back to Baal without so much as a warning I'd imagine there are more than a few inquisitors quite pissed with us right now anyways (Especially those of us who'd been forcibly enlisted into an inquisitors force in the first place. So true... so true.. But that is what you get when Traitorous Scum and Xenos Beasts decide to assault the system of our Primarch together. For the Emperor? No, For Sanguinius! That has always been my favorite aspect of the Blood Angels, their total and undying loyalty to their Primach. The Primarch before Emperor mindset that fills everything about them. It does explain that, if Sanguinius was somehow corrupted shortly before death, the Emperor would give him the killing blow. As his whole Legion was undyingly loyal to Sanguinius, not to him. So if Sanguinius died a traitor, the entire Legion would have become traitors. But with becoming a martyred hero, the Blood Angels are shown by example of their own Primarch: No matter what evil you face, dying for the Empire is always better than living a traitor. Still, I do not believe this theory the OP wrote myself.As far as I know, the Red Thirst was always there but controlled by Sanguinius' immense psychic power over his own Legion. And, I think, that during his own final battle, Sanguinius himself finally fell to the Red Thirst in battle. With his link to all his sons they got a taste of their Primarch's own experience of the Red Thirst, much stronger and harder to control than what they could ever hope to overcome. This Sanguinius' Red Thirst experience became the Black Rage for his sons. Just me 2c of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thundrchickn Posted June 25, 2010 Author Share Posted June 25, 2010 Well, we're all BA and BA successors here, considering that, at this point in the story line, every last one of us picked up and ran back to Baal without so much as a warning I'd imagine there are more than a few inquisitors quite pissed with us right now anyways (Especially those of us who'd been forcibly enlisted into an inquisitors force in the first place. So true... so true.. But that is what you get when Traitorous Scum and Xenos Beasts decide to assault the system of our Primarch together. For the Emperor? No, For Sanguinius! That has always been my favorite aspect of the Blood Angels, their total and undying loyalty to their Primach. The Primarch before Emperor mindset that fills everything about them. It does explain that, if Sanguinius was somehow corrupted shortly before death, the Emperor would give him the killing blow. As his whole Legion was undyingly loyal to Sanguinius, not to him. So if Sanguinius died a traitor, the entire Legion would have become traitors. But with becoming a martyred hero, the Blood Angels are shown by example of their own Primarch: No matter what evil you face, dying for the Empire is always better than living a traitor. Still, I do not believe this theory the OP wrote myself.As far as I know, the Red Thirst was always there but controlled by Sanguinius' immense psychic power over his own Legion. And, I think, that during his own final battle, Sanguinius himself finally fell to the Red Thirst in battle. With his link to all his sons they got a taste of their Primarch's own experience of the Red Thirst, much stronger and harder to control than what they could ever hope to overcome. This Sanguinius' Red Thirst experience became the Black Rage for his sons. Just me 2c of course. the red thirst was there from everything I've read and heard. It's just the death of Sanguinius that pushed it over the edge into the black rage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Bloodwolf Posted June 25, 2010 Share Posted June 25, 2010 Well, we're all BA and BA successors here, considering that, at this point in the story line, every last one of us picked up and ran back to Baal without so much as a warning I'd imagine there are more than a few inquisitors quite pissed with us right now anyways (Especially those of us who'd been forcibly enlisted into an inquisitors force in the first place. Sorry brother. I've got fangs to but they're of the canine sort :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redo Posted June 25, 2010 Share Posted June 25, 2010 Just looked at this picture again and as someone else mentioned the Emperor has no ranged weapon. He enters the room and Sanguinius is already dead...with Horus standing over him, claw raised and bolld dripping from it. In my opinion it was Horus' talon that killed Sanguinius. Right through his cheast and into his heart. Sure the winners always right the history book but the Red Thrist was always there and likewise Sanguinius knew with his foresight that he was going to die when he ventured upon Horus' battlebarge and he was utterly loyal to the Emperor to the end. If Sanguinius had turned; surely the Emperor would have lost against the both of them... Anyway I find this manager's theory weak and it was the traumatic nature of Snaguinius' death that released the Black Rage and as stated the Red Thirst was always a component of the BA genetic makeup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Korraz Posted June 25, 2010 Share Posted June 25, 2010 A theory based on an artwork? Yeah, sure. This is what actually happened: Sanguinius and Horus were fighting, but Sanguinius whooped Horus' ass, naturally. But then the Emperor rode on a deep striking Fellblade, playing Super--Guitar and shouting insults, into the room, which desintegrated Horus instantly. Unfortunately he drove over Sanguinius who said the famous words "SHOOP DA WHOOP" and shooped the Black Rage into the Blood Angels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor Gideon Lorr Posted June 25, 2010 Share Posted June 25, 2010 Oh I have heard of this heresy, the ears of the Inquisiton are not deaf! Thundering Chicken the Inquistion comes for you, I come for you, Inferno pistol in hand and justice at my side. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nomus Sardauk Posted June 25, 2010 Share Posted June 25, 2010 Begone heretic, I will not sit idley by and listen to you befoul the name of our Emperor and Primarch with your lies! Our Lord Angel was the purest of all the Primarchs, he alone had the Emperor's soul in his blood and he would never betray our father like that traitorous whelp Horus! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
undeadfilth Posted June 25, 2010 Share Posted June 25, 2010 Though I think it unlikely, I also think that this could lend itself to an interesting story direction for the 40k universe to go into. For once the emperor dies there will be no more terra and no more super psychic enhancing throne that may or may not actually implant the zealous tendencies of the imperium psychically into their heads. But yeah, once the emperor dies there is nothing to stop the forces of chaos from swallowing mother terra and thus removing man's dominance and putting them on a much more defensive and survival based existence. Think that would make for an amazing story arc and could be reflected in the game itself in some very interesting ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burningblood Posted June 25, 2010 Share Posted June 25, 2010 OP- I have to say that your mind is blown fairly easily. Maybe you should stay off the progressive rock, just in case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thundrchickn Posted June 25, 2010 Author Share Posted June 25, 2010 OP- I have to say that your mind is blown fairly easily.Maybe you should stay off the progressive rock, just in case. I think i've had an awesome idea while sleeping. I'm going to mix in some of my converted DC models into my regular marine squads and call the the Lamenters reborn. I'm thinking fluffwise, the lamenters know they're not gonna make it so 1 of their tech marines sets a ship to explode inside the hive fleet and take out as much as possible. The blast is so overwhelming it tears a hole into the warp. But not all is lost as 2 stormraven gunships (real pilots always travel in pairs) were in the shadow of the hive fleets main ship protecting from the direct blast of the marine ship. The vacuum of this mini eye of terror sucks the 2 Lamenter ships in where they embark on a quest to escape and return to see what happened to threst of the fleet and search for more survivers. This proved harder than the mere idea as their whips were badly damaged. After landing on the nearest planet to search for supplies they are discovered by demons, are discovered by CSM and are forced to use hit and run guerilla tactics to survive. In a battle with some CSM they manage to capture a sergent as they need information to aquire a CSM ship to get off the planet as theirs were so damaged and taken by the CSM. The sergent laughs at the BA saying he won't ever tell them anything except they're fools and their unflinching loyalty waws what killed Sanguinius. he tells them the emperor and sanguinius killed HOrus and that the emperor killed sanguinius afterwards like I said at the beginning of the topic. They don't believe him and shoot him outright without even caring about the ship anymore. fast forward a couple decades, they've been lost for a long time trying to get back. They've battled many CSM, demons, and even some remnents of the hive fleet that were sucked into the warp like them. On their travels they find more evidence of what really happened in the battle between Horus, Sanguinius, and the emperor which leads to the story being true but they refuse to believe it until in a battle with a gretaer demon with the near extinction of the last members of the chapter, the Sanguinor shows up more powerfull than ever before as they are actually in the warp where it draws its power and smites the Demon and its minions. With only 7 members left of the original 28 (2 12 man squads and 4 pilots between the 2 ravens) the sanguinor approaches the leader of this weary, scortched armored, barely alive (only 3 are standing: Vicarrius the Sergeant who becomes the chapter master, a Techmarine pilot from the stormravens who becomes the chapter flagships pilot, and another marine who becomes a field captain) group and as he is the embodiment of their the BAs true desires, tells them the truth of what happened. That The emperor and Sanguinius defeated horus and them the emperor killed sanguinius and with Sanguinius' last effort of will creates the sanguinor and cripples the emperor hoping to kill him as he would rather kill him than leave the empire in the hands of a greater traitor than even Horus. he dies of his wounds before he kills the emperor and as the emperors final act of treachery, he realizes what is happening as the black rage is being formed and changes the details of sanguinius' deathwith his awesome psychic powers so the BAs will never know what really happened. Dorn as a blind follower of the emperor covers up the battle, has great mruals as we have seen know done up and put all over terra to go along with the emperors plans. Dorn puts it to the inquisition to watch over all the BAs carefully and to be alert when it comes to the black rage. time goes on, people forget until the original lamenters cure the black rage. A few of the inquisition know the truth of the horus heresy final battle and not knowing that the lamenters still didn't know what happened orchestrate sending them out on the 100 year crusade hoping they are all whiped out before they can share anything with the other BAs resulting in the near loss of the entire chapter. But vicarrius knows 2 things. The truth and that he must rebuild his chapter before he may bring the Black Rage cure to the rest of the most loyal of the loyal, the blood angels. A day of reckoning is coming. The tyranids couldn't stop it. Daemons burned and crumbled before it. The Traitor legions could not best him. Vicarrius is coming. i'm planning on using DC models as the veterans mixed into the squads, green stuff the Xs out of but keep the heavy iconography. The normal marine models will be Neophytes and the "second founding lementor" members. No actual veteren squads in my army as there aren't enough veterens alive. Obviously no Death company units. thanx for reading and the inquisition will feel our wrath Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Droofus Posted June 25, 2010 Share Posted June 25, 2010 He who lives to tell the tale writes the history books. Technically only DORN was the one that lived. (minor characters not included) Think on THAT for a moment. Yeah, and he was nuttier than squirrel turds. Seriously, with how psychically sensitive the primarch was, is it any wonder that the Blood Angels would be so wounded by his death? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattsama Posted June 25, 2010 Share Posted June 25, 2010 That would make the emperor the great traitor and also responsible for the black rage. I couldn't think of any hard proof to refute this. You don't need to refute a theory. A theory has to prove itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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