Dark Angels relationship with other legions (Heresy era)

[Hiram]

So all the cool Dornian Heresy stuff here on B&C has got my mind going off on all sorts of different tangents... like many it has got me thinking of my own interpretation of an alternate history of the Heresy. With that said I am curious about how people think Lion'el Johnson and the dark Angels got on with the various other primarchs and legions. I'm looking for opinions here not just stuff that is supported in the established fluff :wallbash:

 

This is fun stuff to think about and I hope people contribute to this thread in the spirit that it is intended (just a bit of harmless fun).

 

Looking forward to hearing your ideas!

[I am the Stig]

Well...Lion obviously liked Russ, though their Legions were probably not the best of buddies, and nearly all the Primarchs had a man-crush on Horus and Sanguinius. I can't imagine the Dark Angels liking the Alpha legion, as they were the last to be founded compared to the DA's being first, and I think i remember reading somewhere that Lion didn't like Ferrus Manus for some unspecified reason.

 

Beyond that, I don't know.

[Roleplayer]

So all the cool Dornian Heresy stuff here on B&C has got my mind going off on all sorts of different tangents... like many it has got me thinking of my own interpretation of an alternate history of the Heresy. With that said I am curious about how people think Lion'el Johnson and the dark Angels got on with the various other primarchs and legions. I'm looking for opinions here not just stuff that is supported in the established fluff :rolleyes:

 

This is fun stuff to think about and I hope people contribute to this thread in the spirit that it is intended (just a bit of harmless fun).

 

Looking forward to hearing your ideas!

 

Russ and Lion El johnson hated each other.

 

Where did you get the idea they liked each other?

 

The bitterness between the two in the 41st millinuem is the remnants of the primarchs unresolved feud with each other.

[Hellios]

So all the cool Dornian Heresy stuff here on B&C has got my mind going off on all sorts of different tangents... like many it has got me thinking of my own interpretation of an alternate history of the Heresy. With that said I am curious about how people think Lion'el Johnson and the dark Angels got on with the various other primarchs and legions. I'm looking for opinions here not just stuff that is supported in the established fluff ;)

 

This is fun stuff to think about and I hope people contribute to this thread in the spirit that it is intended (just a bit of harmless fun).

 

Looking forward to hearing your ideas!

 

Russ and Lion El johnson hated each other.

 

Where did you get the idea they liked each other?

 

The bitterness between the two in the 41st millinuem is the remnants of the primarchs unresolved feud with each other.

 

Later on they became BFFs! but that was at the end of Heresy... you know when the Lion stabs Russ and so on... the legions however not as friendly... I don't imagine the Lion had many any friends hence one of the reasons he didn't become the War Master... he wasn't a people person... I'm not saying he was hated or hated others although I can imagine he considered a number of primarchs and their methods to be rather ineffective... while he was the Master strategist ;)

[Captain Idaho]

They appear to have a reasonable relationship with the White Scars, while Peturobo was close enough to Johnson to have a private discussion with him regarding support for a potential bid for Warmaster.

[Arioch]

Well I dont think he was directly arrogant, he does not seem that way in the books. But I think he acted in a way that many of the primarchs did not understand and that perhabs this made some grow a certain dislike for him. But I really think that the Lion and Russ had a special bond of brotherhood, perhabs Russ was the only primarch ever to reach beyond the facade of Jonson (because he broke the ice with a nice fight :lol: ). So perhabs he also seemed a bit aloof to the others, but in my opinion he was not as bad as many people make him.

[Roleplayer]

Where does it say they became friends?

 

I have my Angels of Death codex here, and it just says they parted on bitter terms and never made up, the bitterness continuing to this day.

[Korloth Darkwolf]

The Legion would have taken their cues from Johnson with regards to their interaction with other legions and so his personality would have filtered down through the Legion prior to the Heresy and newer marines woul have learnt from these exisiting marines and so the entire Legion would in effect act in a similar manner in this regard.

 

Also unlike the majority of the Primarch's Johnson had absolutely no human contact until he was almost fully grown. The different aspects of human contact all had a major influence on the personalities of the Primarch but this is missing in Johnson's upbringing. Then he got placed within a society of Knightly Orders that stood above and apart from the majority of the population and were at that time not united and constantly trying to out maneouver each other in power struggles.

 

So I don't think that Johnson was arrogant or aloof, but that it was a combination of the following things:

 

- He just didn't understand fully the subtleties of human behaviour having missed his "childhood" among other people and though he did learn quickly he was always going to be lacking in this understanding. His use of Luther as his orator again highlights this lack of understanding of human behaviour.

 

- His martial prowess and intellect put a distance between him and the lower members of the Order, even before he became their Grandmaster.

 

- Once he was in charge they effectively put him on a pedestal so the majority of interraction with him would be in some way false (akin to being on your best when meeting dignitaries etc).

 

- The power struggles among the different orders taught him to keep his inner thoughts and plans close to his chest.

 

- His relationship with Luther is a crutch for his character flaws bought on by his feral childhood. Luther gave him a way to compensate for his lacking interaction skills. When Luther is sent back to Caliban after the events in "Descent of Angels" he lost this crutch and his way of assessing others behaviour at what would be a crucial time as the events of the Heresy are beginning to unfold.

 

So his upbringing and adulthood prior to the Emperor's arrival meant that he was a loner by necessity and lack of understanding as opposed to being an aloof and arrogant individual. So his actions were not easily understood by others and interpreted in a different manner then what was intended.

[Tyros]

Where does it say they became friends?

 

I have my Angels of Death codex here, and it just says they parted on bitter terms and never made up, the bitterness continuing to this day.

 

Latest HH-book, A thousand Sons. page 240. Lorgar stops Russ from attacking Magnus and speaks of Dulan, the war with the Lion. And later say that they are now oath.sworn brothers-in-arms.

[Hiram]

Awesome guys good to get a bit of feedback on what you guys think about the Dark Angels. I guess the next thing that I am interested in ideas on are what people think would have occured had Johnson been declared warmaster and subsequently been corrupted (even more?) by chaos. Also on the premise of him being declared warmaster in the first pace, what do you think would have had to have been different about the timeline for this to actually have occured? I have got a few ideas of my own thought through on this but again am just interested in what others think. Seeing the Dornian heresy stuff has got me interested in doing up some conversions and artwork of my own.

 

http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/9538/1darkangelsphp.jpg

 

Traitor Dark Angels?

[Arioch]

Well, if Jonson was to be declared Warmaster, the only thing I think that needs to be changed is that the Emperor finds Jonson first. He recieves special treatment from the Emperor and becomes his favorite. Having Jonson falling to chaos is not likely, but in contrast to the Dornian Heresy, I guess anything goes. Perhabs if he got to greedy or the dark gods twisted his mind, the same way as they twisted Luther and made him believe that he was doing the rigth thing.

[Korloth Darkwolf]

I think (in my humble opinion) that Johnson was certainly capable of becoming the Warmaster. The following highlights this:

 

He was found later than Horus and still amassed a tally of victories, that although not as long as Horus', was close.

He is portrayed as an extremely gifted tactician and, in the fluff and HH books a leader who is also willing to get stuck in and lead from the front.

He was loyal to the Emperor to the end, including condemning the corrupted Caliban to death when it became apparent that Luther and the Caliban DA had fallen to Chaos (though quite how this is to occur has yet to be explored in the HH books).

 

But (and it's a big but in my mind) I don't think that anyone other than Horus was ever destined to be Warmaster. I cannot believe that the Emperor, portrayed as he is in the fluff and books, did not know the consequences of his choices. The fact that Horus was put into that position (which was created for him) I believe was to achieve some far reaching aim. Everything that is written about the Heresy and the events before it are reinforcing this even more. The Emperor is after something and every action is just a part of that plan.

[Captain Idaho]

You guys are forgetting a single very important factor with the Lion. Whilst he was capable of performing the job of Warmaster, he fails on a very important count:

 

He has poor interpersonal skills, and lacks the means to motivate the various factions of the Imperium under his control. The other Primarchs are the biggest obstacle, and he certainly had no influence or control on Russ, Angron, Mortarion, Night Haunter and Alpharius, of which Horus did.

 

Even Guilliman and Dorn, the main rivals in who could be Warmaster, had their disagreements with some Primarchs, whilst also lacked the means to motivate all the Primarchs as Horus did.

 

Not trying to rain on the parade of the Unforgiven and all, but the Lion might be tactically and strategically sound, but that wasn't why Horus was chosen as Warmaster :P

[Hiram]

So then, hypothetically speaking, if he were found by the locals on Caliban a little earlier it might make a huge difference? What do you think might have happened if he were found by the "wolf" order of knights (Sorry I forget it's exact name) found in the North or by "The Order" a little earlier?

[Captain Idaho]

Maybe, but then you are using the word "if". If Night Haunter was found by the locals as a child before deciding to be a vigilante he might be more stable? If Angron was found by someone who wasn't a slaver he wouldn't be a beserker? If Russ landed on Maccragge he would have learned to shave?

 

You are basically removing a large part of the Primarchs character using that if :)

[Hiram]

"If" is kinda the whole point of this thread... simply meant to be a discussion regarding what may have been in a different timeline. I have read some really creative story writing here on the forums and I'm interested in what people can come up with based on a few "if"s. Pointless in many peoples opinions yes but for me at least kinda fun :)

[Captain Idaho]

Well, on that basis I will give you my educated opinion on the question you asked. :P

 

If the Lion was better at interpersonal interaction and able to play the politics game just as well as Horus, and as I hold him above Horus in strategic ability so would pick him over Horus.

 

However, if his rivals for Warmaster had the same charisma and influence on his rivals as Horus also, then Guilliman would be head and shoulders above the rest of them. It's debateable who is better strategically out of Johnson, Horus and Guilliman, so we won't go there, but Guilliman has 2 traits that make him an outstanding Warmaster, and those are his skills at preventing casualities whilst achieving his aims (hinting at deeper strategic ability) and being the master of Logistics.

 

I'm sure there are anti-Ultras players out there who will disagree with me on the importance of logistical management, but warfare is actually won by the side that manages logistical warfare the best (when things are equal of course). Commanding the entirety of the Imperium's forces in a galaxy the size of ours would require supernatural logistical ability.

 

Remember that in False Gods Horus was really starting to suffer from stress, which we can indirectly attribute to his lack of logistical brilliance.

 

So when using the word if, and applying the scenario to all Primarchs equally, Johnson would be my 2nd choice Warmaster, after Guilliman.

 

Incidently, I think the Warmaster position should have always been Sanguinius. He was the Angel of the Emperor, had respect from everyone save perhaps Angron, but even he likely respected his brother, just was jealous of his Legion's position in relation the Blood Angels. The only other Primarchs he couldn't motivate as well as Horus were Mortarion and Kurze, but then in this perfect scenario, Horus would have been able to support Sanguinius so this wouldn't be an issue.

 

Note Sanguinius was humble as well as his other virtues, so would have no qualms about delegation.

 

Of course, Guilliman didn't have the influence of Horus on his brothers therefore even with his abilities he couldn't be a successful Warmaster.

 

***Highlighted so people know I am not advocating Guilliman as the best!***

[increaso]

I don't think that the Lion had the same charisma as Horus.

 

If the events up to Ullanor did not change but the Lion had instead become Warmaster i can imagine that Lorgar would have still approached Horus or maybe Guilliman rather than the Lion.

 

I think it would have been recognised that the Lion did not have the skills to unite the legions against the Emperor and i think there would have been more disatisfaction with the Lion than Horus as Warmaster.

[Purge The Weak]

The lion doesn't know how to judge or read people. That's his flaw and why he wasn't warmaster.

 

He doesn't even trust his own legion.

[dynamicspartan]

If Russ landed on Maccragge he would have learned to shave?

siged

 

Now back on topic. Even though I play DA, I don't see Lion being warmaster even in a alternate time line. The only reason he wanted to be warmaster is he felt he was better suited for it than Horus. Which his antisolialness really makes it hard for him to do so. He can rally his angels, but not all the legions.

[DAG42]

Exacty the Emperor had already seen the future, of what happened , his choices and the heresy. Remember what was shown to Horus, while he's in that temple. Also in Thousand Sons Magnus' vision, he see's Horus on earth and the Emperor in the chamber below the palace thingy. ( don't think I explained that right, at work and don't have reference with me ).

[Legatus]

Exacty the Emperor had already seen the future, of what happened , his choices and the heresy.

The last decade of fluff wants to make us believe that the Emperor did not know about the Heresy in advance. I think the Horus Heresy books might even refer to him speaking about how his visions are strangely obscured.

[EPK]

Exacty the Emperor had already seen the future, of what happened , his choices and the heresy.

The last decade of fluff wants to make us believe that the Emperor did not know about the Heresy in advance. I think the Horus Heresy books might even refer to him speaking about how his visions are strangely obscured.

 

Yes, I agree, this is what the heresy books would have you believe. It's noted that Chaos gods knew the Emperors powers and that they used a great deal of their own to blind him (ie. massive warp storms) from what was happening until it was too late. He may have forsaw his own actions and versions of what the future might hold but I don't believe he was fully aware of the impetus - the corruption of his favorite son.