IA: Sons of Lightning

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

I still don't like the word "respected." I know what you are getting at as in you don't take them lightly, but I don't think respected is the best word choice.

 

I know you dislike respecting Xenos haha :) I think the first part is more important: Hated adversaries. Just because you hate something, doesn't mean you can't respect it. That's my theory anyway.

 

Honestly I find myself agreeing with Shinzaren. Respect is for an adversary is key, lest you underestimate them or dismiss them unwisely.

 

I don't want to get topical by referencing more recent conflicts, but in history any soldier or general with a healthy respect for the skills and abilities of his adversary has, by and large done a lot better than anyone who thought themselves immensely superior by default.

 

You don't have to like someone to respect them. You can respect traits inherit in the enemy. Perseverance, determination, loyalty, tenacity, their skills in certain areas of warfare.

 

Hate them all you want for what they represent and stand for and for the aim of their operations, but don't lack any respect for their abilities.

 

On topic, I see nothing wrong with this.

 

We keep coming up at odds RG! ;)

[RagingGriffon]

We keep coming up at odds RG! :)

 

It's because you won't make your Chapter descended from the 2nd or 11th Primarch ;)

 

On topic:

 

I understanding respecting your enemy... I just think there is a better word for it. Let me search.

 

they have battled most against the Eldar, Biel-Tan especially, each gaining the measure of the other as hated adversaries and respected foes.

 

they have battled most against the Eldar, Beil-Tan especially, and overtime they have become consistent adversaries worthy of the Chapter's wrath.

 

 

The problem I have with "respect" is that in connotates so much. If you read the definition of "respect" it says, "esteem for or a sense of the worth or excellence of a person, a personal quality or ability, or something considered as a manifestation of a personal quality or ability" and "the condition of being esteemed or honored," and "a formal expression or gesture of greeting, esteem, or friendship." I just don't think a Chapter that rolls in and slits throats in the shadows with sound dampened Thunderhawks respects the Eldar, because the Eldar sure as heck don't respect mon-keigh. I gave an example of the feeling I am trying to get across. Yes, you fight Eldar all the time, yes the Eldar are not to be trifled with, but ultimately, they are to be stomped in the face and ground into the dirt by your power-armored boot.

Edited July 22, 2010 by RagingGriffon

[Shinzaren]

See, I have issues with the word worthy haha :) I think any and all enemies are worthy of the Emperor's Wrath, as carried out by his Space Marines. I'm gonna have to stick with respect for now haha. Grey Hunter pretty much summed up my reasons. Respect is important, despite any undertones it may carry. And again, "hated adversaries" the more important part of the sentence, and thus, the lead-in phrase.

[RagingGriffon]

::gives evil eye and shakes fist in anger at both of you:: Edited July 22, 2010 by RagingGriffon

[Shinzaren]

Shouldn't you be working on your Paragons? :)

[RagingGriffon]

Shouldn't you be working on your Paragons? :)

 

Shouldn't you be finding another word other than "respect?" :P

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

Honestly RG I think you're tying far too much emotion in to the usage of 'respect' in this context.

 

Hatred is the emotion given to these xenos for what they stand for and what they represent as an alien adversary to humanity. Respect is the more objective esteem for their abilities, which in many areas far outstrip those of the Astartes.

 

 

Eg: There is a stalker about who has a penchant for knocking unsuspecting policemen unconscious and then writing nefarious slogans on their foreheads while they are KO'd.

 

Yes you can hate him for what he does with his talent for sneaking up on people, but you have to respect the fact that he is good at what he does otherwise you won't stay on your toes to avoid a similar fate.

Edited July 22, 2010 by Grey Hunter Ydalir

[RagingGriffon]

Honestly RG I think you're tying far too much emotion in to the usage of 'respect' in this context.

 

No, no, no. I'm good with it. I said my piece and if he doesn't want to go for it then I am cool with that. We are bantering each other and it is all good. I totally understand where you guys are coming from, and I respect y'alls opinion.

 

You see what I did there? I am one funny dude.

[Shinzaren]

Haha, well, I think you are worthy adversary in this debate. Bwahahaha

[Heru]

Eg: There is a stalker about who has a penchant for knocking unsuspecting policemen unconscious and then writing nefarious slogans on their foreheads while they are KO'd.

 

Yes you can hate him for what he does with his talent for sneaking up on people, but you have to respect the fact that he is good at what he does otherwise you won't stay on your toes to avoid a similar fate.

I refuse to respect said stalker, because I am not a policeman. :tu:

[Captain Juan Juarez]

I don't think respect ties in with under- or overestimating an opponent.

 

These are Astartes, no matter the form, they are raised on hatred and zeal and to use these as weapons as much as Bolter and Chainsword.

 

I doubt they would respect the Swordwind Host - yeah, I'm being all flowery - at all, even after centuries of warfare.. They would simply hate them.

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

I suppose it boils down to the character of the chapter and marines in question.

 

Also this discussion is starting to go off topic, as much as I love to argue.

[Octavulg]

The Eldar Dire Avenger squad had positioned themselves at the entrance to the ruin, shuriken cannons aimed into the night. Their Farseer had warned them that the enemy would attack this place, and the mon'keigh would find themselves ambushed. From the back of the ruins, the Exarch was ordering the set up, preparing for the assault he knew was coming.

 

"Shere'Tse, Unthuas, go to the right, fortify the stairwell against the mon'keigh."

 

The two blue armored warriors nodded and moved, checking their weapons as they did. The Exarch turned to the now empty room and activated his communication rune, patching himself through to his squad outside the ruins.

 

"Brothers and sister. The Seers have traced the skeins of fate to this place. The mon'keigh will come, and hope to find us unprepared. Instead, our ambush will take them by surprise. Let the Swordwind sweep over this world! Crush them my Avengers, for Asurmen and for the Bie--"

 

The Exarch never finished his sentence, his voice turned to a bloody gargle, the twin blades of the marine simultaneously cutting his windpipe, and penetrating his spine.

 

Captain Irriaz dropped the corpse and wiped his blades, returned the knives to their sheathes. His helmet blinked with confirmation runes as his squad eliminated the Dire Avenger squad that made up the advanced guard of the Eldar force. Not a shot had been fired in the opening battle for this world. Irriaz gave the signal, and smiled as he heard the muted hum of modified Thunderhawk drop ships approaching.

 

The Shadow Keepers had arrived.

 

[irrational]

 

I hate these. Not your inferior, weaksauce hatred. The burning fire which prompts holy war and purgation, and which has swept humanity relentlessly forward through history. My hatred makes the hate of that computer in that Harlan Ellison story seem like the tiniest mitochondria dancing within a creature whose every molecule is pure liquid malevolence and ire. They take more time than is necessary and serve no purpose other than blatantly trying to make the Chapter look cool. They are the epitome of 'trying too hard'. Hate.

 

[/irrational]

 

Note that yours isn't bad, I just hate them as a rule. It's an advance guard, not an advanced guard, and logically it would be Beil-Tan rather than the Beil-Tan.

 

"The blade unseen cuts surest, and the knife in the dark is the cleanest kill. Strike unseen and your enemy will falter. Attack unheard, and the enemy will flounder. Kill from the unknown, and the enemy will flee before you. Bask in the Emperor's shadow, and be the silent death of His enemies." -Book of the Dark War IX

 

"Cowards and back stabbers who dishonor the memory and teachings of the Great Primarch, Rogal Dorn. They hide in the shadows, unable and unwilling to face their foes and their fate. Do not speak to me of the Shadow Warriors." -Darnath Lysander, Captain of the Imperial Fists 1st Company.

 

"They came outta the shadows and slaughtered the Eldar that we were engaging. What glimpses we saw of em looked like pictures of Space Marines, but these were darker colored then the blue ones in the books, and they were dead quiet too. Killed all the Eldar and vanished before we could even thank them.-Sergeant Johnathon Wersermen, Serris Planetary Defense Force, 5th platoon.

 

Perhaps either spread the quotes out or cut them down a little? I've found great success by sticking one at the head of every section. Great way to slip in casual references to other media and games, too.

 

Making planet fall by drop pod assault, the marines engaged the Eldar quickly, only to be out maneuvered and surrounded. Their head on assaults failed time and time again, and eventually the Shadow Keepers were forced to withdraw, leaving the Eldar free to claim the planet. The battle cost them nearly half of their budding chapter, including the entire command structure, save a handful of sergeants. The most senior of these remaining sergeants, a young Crimson Fist named Nikolai Hessa, stepped into this void, taking command. Trained to fight in the stubborn way of Dorn and his ilk, Hessa was young enough to be open to change, an attitude that would save his chapter, and lead to their eventual rebuilding and success. Nikolai withdrew the few remaining marines he had, intent on both building his fledgling chapter, and training them in the ways of shadows and darkness. Frontal assaults were abandoned, dropped in favor of lightning raids and shadowy ambushes. They had been created to fight Eldar, and so they would relearn how to fight. Despite having have to retrain themselves to fight an entirely new style of war, the Shadow Keepers did not falter, and when they fought the Eldar again, they did so as a different army. On the Imperial world of Sinead, the Eldar of the Biel-Tan Craftworld again brought war to the Imperium, and as before, the Shadow Keepers stood ready to meet them. When battle was joined, the Shadow Keepers struck at high speed, attacking before vanishing only to reappear and attack again. Gone were the proud full on assaults and fusillades. Now they fought as wraiths, striking out, only to fade to the shadows. Victorious over the Eldar, the planet was saved, a salve on the chapter's wounded pride. Fresh from their victory, Hessa turned his attentions to Jacarta, still held in the grip of fear by Eldar raiders. In a nearly year long campaign, Nikolai and the Shadow Keepers finally purged the system, ending in a ferocious battle on Jacarta IV, burning away the shame of defeat in the fires of victory, though the planet would later suffer its own, terrible, fate.

 

The change feels too sudden to really be believable. It's like watching a montage in an eighties movie. One week, they can't fight the Eldar, the next week they're better than the Eldar? No. It feels too artificial.

 

The Three Worlds

The Shadow Keepers recruit from three main worlds: Gennis, the Burning Hell, Sinead, the Everdark, and Jacarta, the Hive World. Each of these planets is a precious resource to the Shadow Keepers, and small fortresses have been established in the wildest areas of each. It is to these fabled locations that chapter hopefuls must pilgrimage, and from them, that the Shadow Keepers recruit the most worthy to their brotherhood. So it is written in the Book of the Dark War: "The recruits of the chapter are the seeds of future greatness. Each must be carefully watered in the teachings of the Chapter. Each must be given the Emperor's Light, and each must fight to secure their place in the future. So protect with all effort the trees that give us such seeds, safeguarding them from all harm."

 

...And then did the Emperor require that his sons should bring unto him each a shrubbery. But Horus did see the perfection of his father's shrubberies, and he did envy them, as he once had envied the glory of the turnip, that most holy of foods (this is why Horus is also known as the Masher-of-Turnips). And so did Horus plot with the Gods of Chaotic Gardening: Nurgle, God of Mulch, Slaanesh, God of Sweet Scents, Khorne, God of Thorns, and Tzeentch, God of Annuals. And thus the son of the Emperor turned over a new leaf...

 

No gardening metaphors. Doesn't fit the tone of the grimdarknessofthefarfuturewherethereisonlywarandblackpudding.

 

The Chapter is largely Codex based, though it has been adapted to suit the needs of the Shadow Keepers particular way of war. Many of its divergences from Codex are a result of the mighty tome penned by the first Chapter Master, Nikolai Hessa, and added to across the generations as new wisdom and tactics were discovered. This collection of works on the ways of war by the Shadow Keepers is known as the Book of the Dark War, first written by Hessa in the dark years following their crushing defeat on Jacarta IV. What began as a simple collection of notes and thoughts on how best to fight the Eldar, has evolved into a generation spanning treatise on all the facets of the Chapter. It is a spiritual guide, with discussions on faith and the Emperor, as much as it is a guide to warfare. In in its pages the divergences from Codex are reasoned and explained, as is the Chapter’s predilection towards the night and the shadows. It covers the known tactics of the Chapter’s major enemies, how best to counter them, and how each strategy was developed, usually using a historic battle as a reference. All totaled, the Book of the Dark War encompasses nearly 300 volumes, roughly 120 having been handwritten by Hessa himself, the others added as was necessary.

 

So your Chapter Master discovered new and exciting methods that were not in the Codex, eh? Methods which the Raven Guard, White Scars, and other such Chapters had not already discovered? Other Chapters who, after all, fight the Eldar with some success? You sure about that?

 

The Shadow Keepers have no particular hatred or distrust of Psykers, featuring an average sized Librarium. They treat Librarians cautiously, but with the arms of friendship. Remembering the gifts of the Adeptus Mechanicus that allowed the birth of the Chapter, they similarly regard Techmarines without hatred or suspicion, relying on them to keep their arms and armor in fighting condition. Ever faithful to the Emperor, the Chapter’s chaplains are spread evenly throughout the chapter, assigned on a battle by battle basis, rather than permanent appointment. The same is true for the Apothecarium, Librarium, and the Techmarines, none of which are permanently attached to any one squad or company. The one exception to this, is that two apothecaries are always permanently attached to each scout company, ensuring the newest initiates are constantly monitored and able to receive the best care available, so that they may grow strong in the chapter.

 

Being undistinguished and average does not require coverage. Man bites dog, not dog bites man.

 

All this is lead by the Chapter council, at the height of which sits the Chapter Master, currently Nikolai Stratos. When the Chapter Master ascends, he symbolically gives up his forename, taking Nikolai in its place. In this way, they honor their first chapter master, whose faith and willingness to learn ensured the survival and prosperity of the Shadow Keepers. Alongside him in the Chapter Council sit Master of Sanctity Jeth Ferro, Chief Librarian Hevist Sha’Tho, and Chief Apothecary Gred Varrit. The last seat belongs to the reclusive Master of the Forge, whose domain is the Forge Ship Shadow’s Arm, which he rarely leaves. Though the command structure is solid and unwavering, each Captain and strike force Commander is given nearly unlimited freedom to wage war as he wishes. Indeed, many Companies and battle forces fight alone for decades, or in extreme cases, centuries, before returning to the Chapter Fleet. Each strike force works inside the Imperium’s systems and regulations, always upholding the honor of the chapter, though only rarely do they engage alongside allies.

 

Wouldn't it make more sense to honor him with the surname? Or perhaps not.

 

Combat Doctrine:

The Fate of Jacarta IV

Jacarta IV, the site of the Shadow Keepers first, devastating, defeat, was once a mostly peaceful, Civilized World. The came the sundering. Nearly 500 years after the Shadow Keepers reclaimed the Jacarta system, Jacarta IV suffered a terrible seismic event, the core of the planet literally exploding outward, shattering the planet and killing billions. The cause of this seismic event is still unknown; the core was, until this event, completely stable. All that is known is that Jacarta IV is now a ruined and dead world, broken nearly in half by the terrible explosion. Some whisper that the mysterious Eldar destroyed the planet when their attempts to seize it were thwarted by the Shadow Keepers nearly half a millennia ago. None know for certain however, and the broken wreck offers no answers.

 

So?

 

You've told us a lot of different things so far, but haven't made it particularly clear why any of it matters. What makes this piece of information worthy of inclusion?

 

Though they hail from the Geneseed of Rogal Dorn, the Shadow Keepers do not share his methods on war making. Instead they fight in the shadows, waging wars of stealth and speed. Launching into battle by Thunderhawk, Drop Pod, or transporter, they immediately surround and attack their foe from many angles and avenues. Many, though not all, of the Thunderhawks of the Shadow Keepers have been modified by their Techmarines to reduce engine noise and heat profile, a valuable asset for the Keepers. However, the trade off is reduced speed and maneuverability, increasing the chances of being shot down should they be spotted. The Shadow Keepers consider this a more than fair trade, gladly taking the risk in exchange for being able to approach their enemies unseen and unheard. The Shadow Keepers fight at night as often as possible, preferring the cover of darkness to do their bloody work. They assault with all power at a single point, breaking the enemy, destroying it utterly, then fading before reinforcements arrive. Commonly the Shadow Keepers will assault an enemy, only to withdraw immediately, confusing the enemy, drawing him out of his formations; all the while preparing a devastating assault at a weaker point. If they find themselves outmatched, the Shadow Keepers have no qualms retreating; pulling back to reevaluate the battlefield and adjust their plan of engagement, before assaulting again. Seen as cowardice by some of the more stubborn successors to Dorn's legacy, the Shadow Keepers know it is better to retreat and change tactics, than to needlessly spend lives. This has led to tension between the Shadow Keepers and the Imperial Fists, some of whom who view the Shadow Keepers as cowards, unworthy to carry the geneseed of their great Primarch. If the Shadow Keepers are aware of this, then they make no mention of it, remaining as silent on the subject as they are in everything else.

 

Reduce the speed and maneuverability of a Thunderhawk and it'd probably fall out of the sky. :D They're brute force machines - stealthy Thunderhawks feels a little contradictory.

 

The Shadow Keepers are secluded and withdrawn from other Imperial organizations, working alone. Indeed, the Shadow Keepers often avoid large scale battles such as Armageddon and the Black Crusades, as their particular way of war is unsuited to fighting with allies. They prefer instead to add to such campaigns in their own ways, often striking supply lines to major conflicts, or assaulting reinforcements before they can arrive. Always mobile, they rarely stay in one place for any extended amount of time, having learned the pitfalls of static positions. In all things, the teachings of Nikolai, and his most famous work “Book of the Dark War,” color the chapter, both in war and not. As he was the driving force that converted the Chapter to its stealthy and mobile ways, the Shadow Keepers owe him a great debt, and remember his teachings always.

 

At least half this parapgraph is repeating things you've already said in a slightly different way.

 

* * *

 

3500 words and I could condense most of it to "much like the Raven Guard". There's some interesting stuff here (I love a good Eldar-hating Chapter), but at the moment the Chapter's defining characteristic is their combat tactics - and fighting is the least interesting part of a Chapter, as a rule. In this case, it's even moreso since, like I said: Raven Guard.

 

There is a lot of redundancy and repetition here - I'd honestly say you have closer to 2000 words of content than 3500. Pare it down, and see what you have left.

 

Try to come up with something unique about this Chapter other than their tactics. Then develop that (I'd recommend looking at where you could take the Eldar-fighting other than just tactics. It's ground remarkably little-trodden).

Edited July 27, 2010 by Octavulg

[Shinzaren]

Crap... he found it. I kept thinking it would remain hidden :) Good points though, much of which will have to be addressed in the second draft. Hmm, new ways to hate an old foe. They really do the Eldar, so I suppose a little work there could be done.

 

The change feels too sudden to really be believable. It's like watching a montage in an eighties movie. One week, they can't fight the Eldar, the next week they're better than the Eldar? No. It feels too artificial.

 

Yeah, it's really hard to describe a montage with words alone. Basically, they were working out in Siberia; hauling logs and stuff. Eye of the Tiger was playing. It was really good. You shoulda seen it.

 

Good point though, I'll try and make it more believable. And I guess saying their tactics weren't in the Codex would be flawed, perhaps just not in the chapters they were reading from. They aren't new to the universe perhaps, but the Fists probably just glossed over those sections before.

 

...And then did the Emperor require that his sons should bring unto him each a shrubbery. But Horus did see the perfection of his father's shrubberies, and he did envy them, as he once had envied the glory of the turnip, that most holy of foods (this is why Horus is also known as the Masher-of-Turnips). And so did Horus plot with the Gods of Chaotic Gardening: Nurgle, God of Mulch, Slaanesh, God of Sweet Scents, Khorne, God of Thorns, and Tzeentch, God of Annuals. And thus the son of the Emperor turned over a new leaf...

 

Think of how much nicer the galaxy would be if this were true though. I feel Nurgle would be the God of Compost perhaps. But yeah, I suppose trees and seeds can be changed to Fires and Anvils, Forges and Blazing Infernos. Same creation type vein, more Grimdark.

 

All in all, excellent points Octavulg, which I will try to work on. I don't know how, but I'll try.

[Octavulg]

Crap... he found it. I kept thinking it would remain hidden smile.gif

 

In the Librarium submission queue? :P ;)

 

Right now that means you were getting either me or Ferrus, and Ferrus has been busy the past few weeks. :P

 

Good points though, much of which will have to be addressed in the second draft. Hmm, new ways to hate an old foe. They really do the Eldar, so I suppose a little work there could be done.

 

If you want to define them by their hatred of the Eldar, then explore it fully. Why do they hate the Eldar? What specifically do they hate about the Eldar? How has this affected them, including their tactics, attitudes, philosophies, recruitment practices, and views toward the Imperium?

 

Yeah, it's really hard to describe a montage with words alone. Basically, they were working out in Siberia; hauling logs and stuff. Eye of the Tiger was playing. It was really good. You shoulda seen it.

 

The sad restrictions of the textual medium are a constant burden. Be strong. You have the touch. And possibly the power.

 

Good point though, I'll try and make it more believable. And I guess saying their tactics weren't in the Codex would be flawed, perhaps just not in the chapters they were reading from. They aren't new to the universe perhaps, but the Fists probably just glossed over those sections before.

 

Exploring changing philosophy = good. Saying that they're different = bad. Show, don't tell. God, I hate that phrase. But it's decent advice. They've changed how they view the Codex - explain what that means, why they changed, etc.

 

Think of how much nicer the galaxy would be if this were true though. I feel Nurgle would be the God of Compost perhaps. But yeah, I suppose trees and seeds can be changed to Fires and Anvils, Forges and Blazing Infernos. Same creation type vein, more Grimdark.

 

If you can see a difference between compost and mulch, you're a more discerning man than I. :P

 

All in all, excellent points Octavulg, which I will try to work on. I don't know how, but I'll try.

 

As always - begin with an outline. Then hammer that outline until you can't poke holes in it. Then leave it, go back, and after recovering from the shock of how you could ever have thought it was good, improve it some more. Works for me. :P And fixing an outline is a LOT easier than fixing a full-size IA.

 

Note that this does not mean abandon what you have. It means make an outline. Cannibalizing old drafts for text and ideas is perfectly respectable. :P

[Shinzaren]

In the Librarium submission queue?

 

The last place you would expect it! It was a totally ninja plan, which backfired horribly.

 

If you want to define them by their hatred of the Eldar, then explore it fully. Why do they hate the Eldar? What specifically do they hate about the Eldar? How has this affected them, including their tactics, attitudes, philosophies, recruitment practices, and views toward the Imperium?

 

I think the biggest reason they hate the Eldar is because early in their history, they failed the Emperor by falling to the Xenos they were created to destroy. They nurtured shame, which turned to hatred, and now they constantly want to expunge that shame by destroying them. Its the constant reminder of their failure that drives them against the Eldar. Does that make sense? In my head it does, but I don't know how well I am translating my thoughts. They shun the company of the Imperium as much as possible, because they want to do it themselves, and prove themselves. I was going to have them attempt an assault on a Craftworld at some point in their history, but I feel like that would be a relly big event, and we probably would have heard of it already. Everything they do is colored by their battles against the Eldar, from lowest initiate to Eldest master, they all feel the same. Thanks for the idea, I'll see how I can work this in, and rework everything.

 

If you can see a difference between compost and mulch, you're a more discerning man than I

 

I grew up on a farm haha. Compost is soft organics, like grass and vegetables, slowly broken down into dirt. Mulch is generally more solid, like woodchips, branches, etc. Compost is where you plant the Tree, and the mulch is what you lay around the base to prevent weeds, also as an aesthetic. :P Now you know, and knowing's half the battle...

 

As ever Octavulg, your mix of wit and crushing critique never fail to do the job. I'll get to work as soon as I can.

[Octavulg]

I think the biggest reason they hate the Eldar is because early in their history, they failed the Emperor by falling to the Xenos they were created to destroy. They nurtured shame, which turned to hatred, and now they constantly want to expunge that shame by destroying them. Its the constant reminder of their failure that drives them against the Eldar. Does that make sense? In my head it does, but I don't know how well I am translating my thoughts. They shun the company of the Imperium as much as possible, because they want to do it themselves, and prove themselves. I was going to have them attempt an assault on a Craftworld at some point in their history, but I feel like that would be a relly big event, and we probably would have heard of it already. Everything they do is colored by their battles against the Eldar, from lowest initiate to Eldest master, they all feel the same. Thanks for the idea, I'll see how I can work this in, and rework everything.

 

Assault a crappy Craftworld no one cares about (i.e. one you made up).

 

The trick is that having them fail needs to be done very carefully - you must walk the line between them doing as well as Space Marines should and still losing. I'd recommend achieving a tactical victory that still gives the Eldar what they want.

 

There might be interesting material in them simultaneously wanting to forget all about their defeat and never being able to since well, they're supposed to fight the Eldar.

 

I grew up on a farm haha. Compost is soft organics, like grass and vegetables, slowly broken down into dirt. Mulch is generally more solid, like woodchips, branches, etc. Compost is where you plant the Tree, and the mulch is what you lay around the base to prevent weeds, also as an aesthetic. smile.gif Now you know, and knowing's half the battle...

 

What about forgetting? Where does forgetting fit in? :lol:

 

As ever Octavulg, your mix of wit and crushing critique never fail to do the job. I'll get to work as soon as I can.

 

Sucking up will get you nowhere.

 

Maybe. ;)

[Shinzaren]

Yeah, I am thinking the Craftworld assault should be one of their earliest actions as a whole chapter. Yes they succeed in scouring the place, but they initially take heavy losses, and adapt their tactics on the fly, while assaulting. It explains the viability of them switching tactics, sets them up to suffer heavy losses, incur the wrath of the other Eldar, and generally gives more plausibility to the set-up/mentality of the chapter. Plus, it will save a lot of needless words, since I can take out a lot of the early stuff about Hessa retraining the chapter after the loss, etc.

 

Basic timeline of the assault, just spinning it as I go.

-Their fleet assaults, and while the space battle rages, the chapter boards the world.

-Resistance is stiff, and heavy losses are suffered, the former Fists unwilling to retreat, or yield to the Xenos.

-Eventually they realize that to win, they have to adapt, and slowly change their tactics. Losses go down slightly.

-Step by step, section by section warfare, Eldar defending their home to the last man. Brutal, bloody, violent.

-Big battle at the heart of the Craftworld, Avatar brings the pain, but is eventually brought down.

-200-300 survivors at this point, and the Craftworld is a dead world evermore.

-Preparing clean-up operations when Beil-Tan arrive. Sparks a blood war that endures to this day.

-Shadow Keepers make a hasty retreat, suffer more casualties.

-All in all, much of the chapter is lost, and they have retreated to rebuild. Recruiting goes up, and as survivors of the CW assault train the newbies, they pass on the tactics of the Codex that worked against the Eldar.

 

Viable? Nikolai Hessa could be a surviving captain, now a Chapter Master, who's basically been handing the reigns after a pyrrhic victory. They did what they needed to, but they dishonored Dorn but switching tactics, they lost a bunch of guys, and they gained an enemy that would forever seek their annihilation. As they fight the Beil-tan, they gain an even better understanding of fighting Eldar, and they nurture their hatred for their lost brothers. Hatred drives them, stealth enables them, Eldar fight them. They see Eldar as the ultimate embodiment of deceit and treachery, and nurture their hate. They seek to best them at their own game, ie: stealth and subterfuge, thus demonstrating mankind's superiority.

 

This version of events doesn't have a major defeat, nor a huge amount of shame, but I think it explains the chapter a bit better. So Liber Astartes crew, thoughts? Is this idea more believable and workable?

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

...And then did the Emperor require that his sons should bring unto him each a shrubbery. But Horus did see the perfection of his father's shrubberies, and he did envy them, as he once had envied the glory of the turnip, that most holy of foods (this is why Horus is also known as the Masher-of-Turnips). And so did Horus plot with the Gods of Chaotic Gardening: Nurgle, God of Mulch, Slaanesh, God of Sweet Scents, Khorne, God of Thorns, and Tzeentch, God of Annuals. And thus the son of the Emperor turned over a new leaf...

 

I now wish for a 40k/Monty Python crossover to be created instead of that blasted Ultramarine movie.

 

[irrational]

 

*Snip*

 

[/irrational]

 

For me it's the fact that the Eldar are one of the few enemies who can consistently outperform the Astartes in most areas. They have far superior technology which enables them to utilize their naturally superior physiology to the full. As you so candidly keep bashing Dark Apostle Thirst in his Wraiths thread, Space Marines are not assassins.

 

For them to be able to sneak up on the Eldar as such, especially an Exarch or similar who have been around for as long as, if not longer than your standard 'veteran' tactical marine, along with their other advantages is more than a little too 'awesome'.

 

I hate jumping on the bandwagon of other peoples criticisms without adding something myself but it sounds just like what I'm doing here. I hate riding Octavulg's coattails. ;)

 

 

Though on your praise of Eldar hating chapters Octavulg, where in the world were you when just about every chapter I proposed (in Liber) had a grudge against the Eldar for one thing or other? Dang it all for me missing the boat.

 

Assault a crappy Craftworld no one cares about (i.e. one you made up).

 

The trick is that having them fail needs to be done very carefully - you must walk the line between them doing as well as Space Marines should and still losing. I'd recommend achieving a tactical victory that still gives the Eldar what they want.

 

I know I'm taking two consecutive comments and putting them in the wrong context here but it doesn't work to my mind to have the Eldar 'get what they want' in giving the Imperium a tactical victory when they are assaulting your home. Their tactical victory is your destruction.

 

I can see the Astartes being forced to retreat after achieving some sort of objective definitely. It would be better illustrated, their failure to quell those specific Eldar, if not long afterwards they performed some grievous act against the Imperium after they were written off as a thread because of this chapters action, thereby being viewed by the chapter as being on their shoulders, as their failure.

 

Well, it's just an idea.

 

Edit: I obviously typed this up at the same time you typed up your's Shinzaren. Oh dear.

Edited July 27, 2010 by Grey Hunter Ydalir

[Shinzaren]

Yeah, reworking the entire article :) Changing the intro a bit. Gonna change it from a sneaky little assassin type trick, into a lightning assault, involving lots of typical space marine violence. Punches to the face, lots of stabbing, quick and brutal. Emphasizes the lightning style stealth. Not so quiet, more like so fast you're dead before you realize they were there. that is assuming I keep it all. We'll see ;) And yes, I've tried to ensure I don't describe them as assassins, kinda missed the opening connotations as assassins. Good catch.

[RagingGriffon]

Geeze, Shin, I leave the Liber for 5 days and you already flirting with someone else. I need Octavulg to look at my stuff now... (hint-hint)

[Shinzaren]

Just keeping busy B) Trying to get this F****** IA into the Liber already haha :P

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

As someone much wiser than myself once said:

 

Writing a proper IA is a long-term goal. It's an endurance event and you have to be willing to slow down and take it step-by-step. Sprinting headlong towards the finish line only breeds mistakes and more problems.

 

Librarium submission isn't the one hundred meter dash, it's a marathon.

[Shinzaren]

True enough. Just when you think you're almost there, you realize the finish was actually just the first turn marker B) I do appreciate the advice and support everyone has given though. Very helpful. With this, any thoughts on the Craftworld assault, and the rough timeline. Believable? Viable? Edited July 27, 2010 by Shinzaren

[RagingGriffon]

AFIAK, the only people that have attacked a Craftworld is the Invaders.

 

Maybe your guys attacked a Craftowrold, got stomped and were the "Do this/Don't this" of attacking a Craftworld. I don't know. I am just throwing something out there hoping it will spark something.