Vangaurd Lightning Claws

[BigBaals]

Can the Vangaurd Vet Sergeant use a pair of lightning claws?

 

It says "ANY model may replace bolt pistol/chainsword with..."

- lightning claw

 

Can the sergeant then replace his power sword with another lightning claw, for a pair?

 

 

How are the Vangaurd working out for those of you using them? Do you have pretty good luck with Heroic Intervention, or do you just send them up enemy lines? I'm thinking of 7 - 8 VV. One with PF, another with a pair of lightning claws. How do you set up your VV?

[SamaNagol]

Yes.

 

/

 

Heroic Intervention is pretty reliable actually. As long as you keep their cost down and don't go overboard giving everyone a Lightning Claw and Storm Shield or something ridiculous you should make your points back nicely. I wouldn't take more than a single unit of 6 though. Regular assault marines are very good for their points cost, and with 2 Meltaguns and a Powerfist in a 10 man unit they punch hard when accompanied by a Priest with Power Weapon.

[Haunter!]

Get your scouts out there, locator beacon, deep strike, rip and tear.

 

The extra line for the Sergeant is there because he doesn't have a chainsword. He also gets the claw for free.

[JamesI]

Any Vanguard can have a pair of claws. Sergeant just gets his cheaper since he already has a power weapon to replace rather than the chainsword.

[BigBaals]

So what is better, a pair of lightning claws on a single model, or a single lightning claw on two models?

 

A pair of lightning claws would give a VV 3 attacks base, 4 on the charge with re-rolls to wound

A single lightning claw would give a VV 2 attacks base, 3 on the charge with re-rolls to wound

 

So that's 3/4 attacks with re-rolls, or two different VV with a combined 4 to 6 attacks with re-rolls... and if I'm not mistaken, if one of those VV is the Sergeant, then the single lightning claw is free if replacing the power sword. Am I on the wrong track here?

 

I'm thinking a good loadout might be Sergeant with lightning claw, another VV with lightning claw, and a VV with power fist? Or would the sergeant with a pair of lightning claws and another VV with powerfist be a better loadout?

[SamaNagol]

In a unit, 2 LCs on one model costs the same as 1 LC on 2 models, yet the bonuses are in fact FAR greater for 1 LC on 2 models. Instead of 4 PW attacks with rerolls and 4 mundane attacks, you get 6 PW attacks with re-rolls, which will statistically net you more kills against anything with a save of 4+ or better.

[Grey Mage]

I have always found it the epitome of "weak sauce" that a lightning claw is the far better paring with a storm shield, in all respects.

 

Two lightning claws spread over two models will net you more PW attacks, but fewer attacks over all. That being said if your not in a horde-heavy enviroment *wich, most space marines are but few players experiance* then putting them on two seperate models tends to increase your effectiveness against marines.

[Grimtooth]

Can you play the wound allocation game with VV? If so, combined with their other rules, they could be very effective.

 

Mod edit: do not use chat abbreviations.

[JamesI]

Yes, it is possible to set up a Vanguard or Honor Guard so every model is unique to play the Wound Allocation game.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I run my five man squad as follows:

 

Sergeant/power fist, stormshield & meltabombs

4x LC&SS, meltabombs

 

The unit has jump packs. Fairly resilient due to the 3++ but need to be played carefully to avoid death to focused small arms fire. They are awesome when joined by a Priest if you feel don't need HI. If you use HI they are great for rooting out units such as Long Fangs & IG SWTs. Using HI means most opponents will have to react to them when they deploy.

 

0b :lol:

[Judaz]

I'm a bit slow, but what is wound allocation on a unit with only 1W?

I come from playing Orks, and the WA on the nobz helps alot, but how can it help a unit that dies after one wound?

 

I have never tried out storm shields, are they really worth the points?

[Brother Nathan]

wound allocation when they are all armed differently is putting powerweapon attacks on stormsheilds etc...

[SamaNagol]

Running a unit of VGV with all Storm Shields is UTTERLY redundant unless you are putting them with a Sanguinary Priest. Your 60odd point model with a 3up invulnerable save still dies to bolt pistol shots.

 

If you want an over priced unit that will kill everything in CC, then just take Sanguinary Guard. They are actually excellent at this.

[BigBaals]

Now that I'm comparing stats, I'm wondering if it's go big or stay home with Vanguard. It seems that 6 VV with LC, LC, PF is 235 pts. 5 Sanguinary Guard with Chapter Banner and Power fist are 240. All 5 would get a single re-roll to hit, could count as troops if I run Dante (whom I put down for a bit after using him religiously during our .pdf days!), and get a base 3 attacks, 4 on the charge with a chapter banner, x4 power weapons. Plus the SG get a 2+ save instead of a 3+. Having set the two units next to each other, I think for a 5 man crew, SG are far better for the cost if I'm not running 7-8 VV. Ah well, screw it, I'll just build both and call it a day! Thanks for the input all!

 

How are your 5 man units of SG fairing? Has anyone used both SG and VV? How do they compare in your experience?

 

2 Baals, 2 AC/LC preads, 2 10x RAS with MGx2/PF, and 2x Priest with JP/PW are staples in almost ever list I make. The only problem I have is that our codex is so darn awesome that the viable builds are many! Too many options... the .pdf was easier... Dante/Corbs, Baals, Attack Bikes, TACs, VAS, DC, done!

[LordofDeath11]

Running a unit of VGV with all Storm Shields is UTTERLY redundant unless you are putting them with a Sanguinary Priest. Your 60odd point model with a 3up invulnerable save still dies to bolt pistol shots.

 

If you want an over priced unit that will kill everything in CC, then just take Sanguinary Guard. They are actually excellent at this.

 

I would like to think that nobody in their right mind would take a Storm Shield for every model in his unit, I mean now we are talking one expensive group of laddies.

[SamaNagol]

Now that I'm comparing stats, I'm wondering if it's go big or stay home with Vanguard. It seems that 6 VV with LC, LC, PF is 235 pts. 5 Sanguinary Guard with Chapter Banner and Power fist are 240. All 5 would get a single re-roll to hit, could count as troops if I run Dante (whom I put down for a bit after using him religiously during our .pdf days!), and get a base 3 attacks, 4 on the charge with a chapter banner, x4 power weapons. Plus the SG get a 2+ save instead of a 3+. Having set the two units next to each other, I think for a 5 man crew, SG are far better for the cost if I'm not running 7-8 VV. Ah well, screw it, I'll just build both and call it a day! Thanks for the input all!

 

VGV are worth it if you intend of utilising Heroic Intervention, otherwise you are far better off running either the cheaper Honour Guard, or the more powerful Sanguinary Guard.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Running a unit of VGV with all Storm Shields is UTTERLY redundant unless you are putting them with a Sanguinary Priest. Your 60odd point model with a 3up invulnerable save still dies to bolt pistol shots.

 

If you want an over priced unit that will kill everything in CC, then just take Sanguinary Guard. They are actually excellent at this.

 

I would like to think that nobody in their right mind would take a Storm Shield for every model in his unit, I mean now we are talking one expensive group of laddies.

 

Sure they are expensive but they are also uber Killy and can stand up to units like assault terminators. It's just a matter of moving them in such a way as to avoid enemy LOS. I don't use mine that often but when I do they have come through shining time and time again. I tend to run low model count armies so it's not a big deal to me.

 

0b :angry:

[Judaz]

Hope I'm not highjacking this thread, but is there any reason not to take lightning claws instead of a regular power weapon? Is there a special rule somewhere that I have forgotten all about?

 

LC's on the priest that runs (flies) with the Vanguard vets would be awesome!

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Lightning claws reroll wounds.

 

0b :)

[mysteriousmaskedmystery]

@Judaz, a LC only gets the bonus attack for having two CC weapons if the second weapon is another LC. a lot of people would rather have 3 attacks on their guy with a normal power weapon, instead of 2 LC attacks.

 

i have run VV a few times with just 5 men and a fist, or 10 men with two fists, combat squaded. they are great for armies that already use a lot of DS. on their own, i don't know, a large unit will get into combat quickly and should be able to stay there most of the game if you deploy them right. but if you aren't DS anything else, then why do you need them? so i think they are a unit that needs the list to almost be built around them.

[Morollan]

Lightning claws reroll wounds.

 

He knows. That's why he's asking if there's any reason not to take one over a power weapon.

[Judaz]

@m.m.m., thanks, kinda felt it was something I had forgotten. No extra attack of course. I think I will run my priests with LC's anyway, just for the feel of it! Looking cool, rerolling wounds, who cares about a single extra attack?

 

I mean, Horus wasn't such a bad guy was he? We have felt the claws tear into our own Prima...wait. Hold on a sec, have to talk this over with my chaplain.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

• 2x Vanguard veteran charging with power weapon & bolt pistol (!FC) vs. WS4/T4:

8A, 4 hit & 2W

 

• 2x Vanguard veteran with single lightning claw (!FC) vs. WS4/T4

6A/3 hit & 2W

 

• 2x Vanguard veteran charging with power weapon & bolt pistol (FC) vs. WS4/T4:

8A/4 hits & 3W

 

• 2x Vanguard veteran with single lightning claw (FC) vs. WS4/T4:

6A/3 hit & 2W

 

So power sword actually appears to be slightly better versus MEQ.

 

0b :)

[SamaNagol]

Your numbers are completely wrong. Did you make them up out of thin air?

[BigBaals]

I think a priest (WS5) would be pretty rockin' with a LC that can re-roll wounds, since they are S4. I may try that out too. Might be pretty awesome looking to boot.