Vangaurd Lightning Claws

[LordofDeath11]

@m.m.m., thanks, kinda felt it was something I had forgotten. No extra attack of course. I think I will run my priests with LC's anyway, just for the feel of it! Looking cool, rerolling wounds, who cares about a single extra attack?

 

I mean, Horus wasn't such a bad guy was he? We have felt the claws tear into our own Prima...wait. Hold on a sec, have to talk this over with my chaplain.

 

 

Don't have my codex handy and my memories alittle blury today, but; with FC doesn't the Priest get the S and I bonus as well as the unit?

[LordofDeath11]

• 2x Vanguard veteran charging with power weapon & bolt pistol (!FC) vs. WS4/T4:

8A, 4 hit & 2W

 

• 2x Vanguard veteran with single lightning claw (!FC) vs. WS4/T4

6A/3 hit & 2W

 

• 2x Vanguard veteran charging with power weapon & bolt pistol (FC) vs. WS4/T4:

8A/4 hits & 3W

 

• 2x Vanguard veteran with single lightning claw (FC) vs. WS4/T4:

6A/3 hit & 2W

 

So power sword actually appears to be slightly better versus MEQ.

 

0b

 

Can you please explain this? I mean you have (!FC) and then (FC) I assume it stands for Furious Charge but whats with the exclamation mark.

[Tigcarn]

• 2x Vanguard veteran charging with power weapon & bolt pistol (!FC) vs. WS4/T4:

8A, 4 hit & 2W

 

• 2x Vanguard veteran with single lightning claw (!FC) vs. WS4/T4

6A/3 hit & 2W

 

• 2x Vanguard veteran charging with power weapon & bolt pistol (FC) vs. WS4/T4:

8A/4 hits & 3W

 

• 2x Vanguard veteran with single lightning claw (FC) vs. WS4/T4:

6A/3 hit & 2W

 

So power sword actually appears to be slightly better versus MEQ.

 

0b :(

 

Can you please explain this? I mean you have (!FC) and then (FC) I assume it stands for Furious Charge but whats with the exclamation mark.

 

I believe the ! is programing language for without or does not equal. So (!FC) would not count as having FC and (FC) would include it.

[LordofDeath11]

Coolness. Thanks.

 

That was a !bad answer.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

That is correct, ! means 'not'.

 

:)

 

@ Samanagol - try to be more zen about it bro.

 

0b

[SamaNagol]

Zen about your numbers being fabricated?

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I'm not sure I follow you. I was using basic statistical odds. If I made a mistake sorry bout that. So what is needed to fix those results?

 

0b B)

[Drachnon]

Let me do the math as well and actually post the calculations to see how big the difference is.

Also those calculations didn’t include the math on what happens if you don’t charge.

 

Disclaimer: All calculations based on WS4 & T4 opponents with no invulnerable save

 

Charging normal:

2x Lightning claw + bolt pistol

(2x(2 base + 1 charge)) = 6 attacks

WS4 vs WS4 = 3 hits (6x 0.5)

3 S4 hits vs T4 with reroll to wound = 2.25 wounds (3x 0.5 + (1.5*0.5))

 

2x Power weapon + bolt pistol

(2x(2 base + 1 charge + 1 2nd CC weapon)) = 8 attacks

WS4 vs WS4 = 4 hits (8x 0.5)

4 S4 hits vs T4 = 2 wounds (4x 0.5)

 

Charging with furious charge:

2x Lightning claw

(2x(2 base + 1 charge)) = 6 attacks

WS4 vs WS4 = 3 hits (6x 0.5)

3 S5 hits vs T4 with reroll to wound = 2.5 wounds (3x 0.66 + (1x0.66))

 

2x Power weapon + bolt pistol

(2x(2 base + 1 charge + 1 2nd CC weapon)) = 8 attacks

WS4 vs WS4 = 4 hits (8x 0.5)

4 S5 hits vs T4 = 2.67 wounds (4x 0.66)

 

No charging:

2x Lightning claw

(2x(2 base)) = 4 attacks

WS4 vs WS4 = 2 hits (4x 0.5)

2 S4 hits vs T4 with reroll to wound = 1.5 wounds (2x 0.5 + (1*0.5))

 

2x Power weapon + bolt pistol

(2x(2 base + 1 2nd CC weapon)) = 6 attacks

WS4 vs WS4 = 3 hits (6x 0.5)

3 S4 hits vs T4 = 1.5 wounds (3x 0.5)

 

End result/conclusions/thoughts:

When not charging it doesn’t matter which you pick vs T4 but considering the properties of the ligntning claw they should prove more effective vs T5 or higher models then normal power weapons. In return the normal power weapons will be better against T3 and lower models because there the amount of attacks matters more.

When you do get the charge and you have a power weapon you want to have that FC bonus which makes it better than the lightning claw because of the extra attack. However if you’re using heroic intervention it’s not always likely that you have a priest with you (since adding those to the squad would remove heroic intervention).

This means Lightning Claws are probably better for heroic intervention but in the end you probably should consider taking one of each. In my opinion this would be better overall and give you an advantage during wound allocation.

 

Black Oranges math was not really incorrect but he rounded some numbers up and other down which you shouldn't do in such calculations. Especially in charging with furious charge he ended up rounding the 2.5 wounds from lightning claws down and the 2.67 from the power weapon up making it look like there was an entire wound difference while the actual amount was only 0.16

[JamesI]

Drachnon, your conclusion matches my math as well. Against T4, the lightning claw/power weapon question is irrelevant. They're equal (assuming we're matching a single claw versus a power weapon/bolt pistol comb).

 

T5, the claw wins, T3 the power weapon wins, though its not much of a difference either way.

[surelock]

Let me do the math as well and actually post the calculations to see how big the difference is.

Also those calculations didn’t include the math on what happens if you don’t charge.

 

Disclaimer: All calculations based on WS4 & T4 opponents with no invulnerable save

 

Charging normal:

2x Lightning claw

(2x(2 base + 1 charge)) = 6 attacks

WS4 vs WS4 = 3 hits (6x 0.5)

3 S4 hits vs T4 with reroll to wound = 2.25 wounds (3x 0.5 + (1.5*0.5))

 

2x Power weapon + bolt pistol

(2x(2 base + 1 charge + 1 2nd CC weapon)) = 8 attacks

WS4 vs WS4 = 4 hits (8x 0.5)

4 S4 hits vs T4 = 2 wounds (4x 0.5)

 

Charging with furious charge:

2x Lightning claw

(2x(2 base + 1 charge)) = 6 attacks

Wouldn't this be base 3 (extra cc weapon +1 attack) or 4 attacks which would change the math?

WS4 vs WS4 = 3 hits (6x 0.5)

3 S5 hits vs T4 with reroll to wound = 2.5 wounds (3x 0.66 + (1x0.66))

 

2x Power weapon + bolt pistol

(2x(2 base + 1 charge + 1 2nd CC weapon)) = 8 attacks

WS4 vs WS4 = 4 hits (8x 0.5)

4 S5 hits vs T4 = 2.67 wounds (4x 0.66)

 

No charging:

2x Lightning claw

(2x(2 base)) = 4 attacks

WS4 vs WS4 = 2 hits (4x 0.5)

2 S4 hits vs T4 with reroll to wound = 1.5 wounds (2x 0.5 + (1*0.5))

 

2x Power weapon + bolt pistol

(2x(2 base + 1 2nd CC weapon)) = 6 attacks

WS4 vs WS4 = 3 hits (6x 0.5)

3 S4 hits vs T4 = 1.5 wounds (3x 0.5)

 

End result/conclusions/thoughts:

When not charging it doesn’t matter which you pick vs T4 but considering the properties of the ligntning claw they should prove more effective vs T5 or higher models then normal power weapons. In return the normal power weapons will be better against T3 and lower models because there the amount of attacks matters more.

When you do get the charge and you have a power weapon you want to have that FC bonus which makes it better than the lightning claw because of the extra attack. However if you’re using heroic intervention it’s not always likely that you have a priest with you (since adding those to the squad would remove heroic intervention).

This means Lightning Claws are probably better for heroic intervention but in the end you probably should consider taking one of each. In my opinion this would be better overall and give you an advantage during wound allocation.

 

Black Oranges math was not really incorrect but he rounded some numbers up and other down which you shouldn't do in such calculations. Especially in charging with furious charge he ended up rounding the 2.5 wounds from lightning claws down and the 2.67 from the power weapon up making it look like there was an entire wound difference while the actual amount was only 0.16

[Drachnon]

Surelock according to page 42 of the rules section in the BRB lightning claws thunderhammers and power fists don't get a second attack from wielding a second close combat weapon unless they are paired with a pair of these weapons. In these calculations the math is based on only a single lightning claw not a pair of lightning claws.

[surelock]

Surelock according to page 42 of the rules section in the BRB lightning claws thunderhammers and power fists don't get a second attack from wielding a second close combat weapon unless they are paired with a pair of these weapons. In these calculations the math is based on only a single lightning claw not a pair of lightning claws.

 

 

Ahh my bad, I saw 2x claws and I thought that was per model, but it is total. Thanks for the clarification.

[Drachnon]

I made a small edit to clarify that for the rest of the people.

[LordofDeath11]

I am lazy/lack any mathmatical 'talent'...

 

Please do Pair of LC vs. two PW's.

[Drachnon]

Here you go. Note that besides the pair of lightning claws there’s a model with normal attacks using a CCW and bolt pistol(otherwise the math wouldn’t be very fair).

 

Charging normal:

1x Pair of Lightning claw and 1x CCW+ bolt pistol

(2 base + 1 charge + 1 2nd LC)) = 4 attacks

WS4 vs WS4 = 2 hits (4x 0.5)

2 S4 hits vs T4 with reroll to wound = 1.5 wounds (2x 0.5 + (1*0.5))

+ 1 wound that allows armor saves (not going to write down separate math on that one just trust me on this)

 

2x Power weapon + bolt pistol

(2x(2 base + 1 charge + 1 2nd CC weapon)) = 8 attacks

WS4 vs WS4 = 4 hits (8x 0.5)

4 S4 hits vs T4 = 2 wounds (4x 0.5)

 

Charging with furious charge:

1x Pair of Lightning claw and 1x CCW+ bolt pistol

(2 base + 1 charge +1 2nd LC)) = 4 attacks

WS4 vs WS4 = 2 hits (4x 0.5)

2 S5 hits vs T4 with reroll to wound = 1.78 wounds (2x 0.66 + (0.66x0.66))

+1.33 wounds that allow armor saves.

 

2x Power weapon + bolt pistol

(2x(2 base + 1 charge + 1 2nd CC weapon)) = 8 attacks

WS4 vs WS4 = 4 hits (8x 0.5)

4 S5 hits vs T4 = 2.67 wounds (4x 0.66)

 

No charging:

1x Pair of Lightning claw and 1x CCW+ bolt pistol

(2 base +1 2nd LC)) = 3 attacks

WS4 vs WS4 = 1.5 hits (3x 0.5)

1.5 S4 hits vs T4 with reroll to wound = 1.125 wounds (1.5x 0.5 + (0.75*0.5))

+0.75 wounds that allow armor save

 

2x Power weapon + bolt pistol

(2x(2 base + 1 2nd CC weapon)) = 6 attacks

WS4 vs WS4 = 3 hits (6x 0.5)

3 S4 hits vs T4 = 1.5 wounds (3x 0.5)

 

My conclusion don’t bother with pairs they’re way to expensive and hardly give the same amount of power weapon wounds that a 2 separate lightning claws or separate PW’s would.

[LordofDeath11]

Here you go. Note that besides the pair of lightning claws there’s a model with normal attacks using a CCW and bolt pistol(otherwise the math wouldn’t be very fair).

 

Charging normal:

1x Pair of Lightning claw and 1x CCW+ bolt pistol

(2 base + 1 charge + 1 2nd LC)) = 4 attacks

WS4 vs WS4 = 2 hits (4x 0.5)

2 S4 hits vs T4 with reroll to wound = 1.5 wounds (2x 0.5 + (1*0.5))

+ 1 wound that allows armor saves (not going to write down separate math on that one just trust me on this)

Sorry, but why 1 wound that allows saves. Where is this coming from?

 

2x Power weapon + bolt pistol

(2x(2 base + 1 charge + 1 2nd CC weapon)) = 8 attacks

WS4 vs WS4 = 4 hits (8x 0.5)

4 S4 hits vs T4 = 2 wounds (4x 0.5)

 

Charging with furious charge:

1x Pair of Lightning claw and 1x CCW+ bolt pistol

(2 base + 1 charge +1 2nd LC)) = 4 attacks

WS4 vs WS4 = 2 hits (4x 0.5)

2 S5 hits vs T4 with reroll to wound = 1.78 wounds (2x 0.66 + (0.66x0.66))

+1.33 wounds that allow armor saves.

 

2x Power weapon + bolt pistol

(2x(2 base + 1 charge + 1 2nd CC weapon)) = 8 attacks

WS4 vs WS4 = 4 hits (8x 0.5)

4 S5 hits vs T4 = 2.67 wounds (4x 0.66)

 

No charging:

1x Pair of Lightning claw and 1x CCW+ bolt pistol

(2 base +1 2nd LC)) = 3 attacks

WS4 vs WS4 = 1.5 hits (3x 0.5)

1.5 S4 hits vs T4 with reroll to wound = 1.125 wounds (1.5x 0.5 + (0.75*0.5))

+0.75 wounds that allow armor save

 

2x Power weapon + bolt pistol

(2x(2 base + 1 2nd CC weapon)) = 6 attacks

WS4 vs WS4 = 3 hits (6x 0.5)

3 S4 hits vs T4 = 1.5 wounds (3x 0.5)

 

My conclusion don’t bother with pairs they’re way to expensive and hardly give the same amount of power weapon wounds that a 2 separate lightning claws or separate PW’s would.

 

Oh and btw, thank you for doing it. Not to mention so quickly.

 

 

My conclusion don’t bother with pairs they’re way to expensive and hardly give the same amount of power weapon wounds that a 2 separate lightning claws or separate PW’s would.

 

But they look so damned cool.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Good job Drachnon!

 

0b -_-

[Drachnon]

I think I stated pretty clearly that the marine with a pair of lightning claws was accompanied by a marine with bolt pistol + ccw. I could have given you the calculations of just the pair of lightning claws but that wouldn't have been a fair comparison as 1 marine with 2 lightning claws costs less then 2 marines with each a power weapon. By adding the marine without special weapons to the one with the pair of lightning claws their cost will be the same as that of the two marines with a power weapon each.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

There is a reason for rounding numbers and it comes from being practical... I'm an engineer IRL. For example in reality no one does 2.75 wounds... so rounding can help to present the results in a manner that is closer to what you would expect during actual game play. We just want to know in a general manner when one weapon is a better choice than the other.

 

0b :)

[JamesI]

I guess I look at it unrounded and it makes more sense to me (perhaps this is the difference of a physicist and an engineer).

 

I know at 2.75 wounds, most of the time I'll get 3, some 2, and then outliers where I get 0, 1, or 4.

 

2.5 wounds would be pretty evenly split between 2 and 3.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

If you are close enough the go for it.

 

;)

 

0b :)

[Guest Drunk Guardian]

I'm a bit confused... I thought Lightning Claws only allow you to re-roll wounds when you have a pair of them? In other words... a single lightning claw is literally the equivalent of just a power sword in that it ignores armor saves... but when you add the second, forming the pair, THEN you get to re-roll wounds?

 

So really, if you're not using the pair, then the only difference between the power sword and the lightning claw is whichever you'd like better on your figure?

 

Also, I was under the assumption that having a pair of lightning claws DID provide the +1 attack for having 2 CC weapons...

[JamesI]

I'm a bit confused... I thought Lightning Claws only allow you to re-roll wounds when you have a pair of them? In other words... a single lightning claw is literally the equivalent of just a power sword in that it ignores armor saves... but when you add the second, forming the pair, THEN you get to re-roll wounds?

 

So really, if you're not using the pair, then the only difference between the power sword and the lightning claw is whichever you'd like better on your figure?

 

Also, I was under the assumption that having a pair of lightning claws DID provide the +1 attack for having 2 CC weapons...

A lightning claw always rerolls wounds, whether single or a pair.

 

A pair of claws provides the +1 attack.

 

The difference between a single claw and a power weapon is while the claw rerolls wounds, the power weapon can be used with a bolt pistol for the +1 attack.

[Drachnon]

I guess I look at it unrounded and it makes more sense to me (perhaps this is the difference of a physicist and an engineer).

 

I know at 2.75 wounds, most of the time I'll get 3, some 2, and then outliers where I get 0, 1, or 4.

 

2.5 wounds would be pretty evenly split between 2 and 3.

 

You should always use unrounded numbers in these kind of calculations, these are statistics not combat results where you can only end with rounded numbers. And I'm more of a mathematician :)

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Mathematicians are well known for naming theorems after themselves.

 

0b :)