Dark Angels VS Meph

[Crynn]

I run Meph in my 1750 point list and one of my regular dark angel opponents is having troubles dealing with him. Could I ask for some wise words from the Dark Angel sanctum here on how do deal with him? Note the only answer I dont want to here is "shoot him with lots of rapid fire plasma" as that example doesnt really work and if you wish to rebut that arguement then go to the BA forums look at one of the top threads titled 'is Mephiston too powerfull', go to page 2 and you will see I nice big post there regarding that stratagy and the Math behind it proving how ineffective it is. That aside I now look to your wisdom to find answers so I dont just have to say to him, "throw more TH/SS termies at him even though yours aren't as good" or worse yet "He's one model bro pick up your game". I genuinely believe Meph in the right hands is a menice, I am sure finding him very very good.

[Corby]

It would be nice to see his list to see what he that can deal with Mephiston.

[krewl]

In general you should just treat him like you would treat a deamon prince, but a very expensive one at that. (Remember he's more expensive then a landraider).

 

So while you would think you'd target him with lascannons and melta/plasma that is actually less effective because he has T6 so doesn't die to instant death, and his Inv save.

Better to use higher S dakka.

Best would be to shut his psy powers down (Include a Brother captain from the deamonhunters codex for example) so that he has less of a chance to be able to use his wings power (Works like a jumppack).

if you take away his mobility he has to footslog, making him less scary for 1 or 2 turns. Giving you the time to either shoot him or more urgent closer threats.

 

Also he's a monster in CC, so don't try to kill him there. If he does come close be sure to sacrifice a smal unit to him, like a combat squad, which he'll wipe in one turn, letting you shoot him again. (Basically what tau do against any CC threat.) So rapid fire him, hit him with heavy bolters, autocannons and suchs. Even though melta/plasma is not very effective you should still shoot it when you have the chance, better a small chance then none when he's munching your unit in CC :lol: . More indepth comments would indead require a list or (Better yet) both of their lists.

[Morticon]

Plasma is his bane. Get some plasma guns in there. ACs also work nicely.

[breng77]

It really depends on the DA army. I play mostly raven wing and Mephiston has never even made it into CC against me, he simply is not fast enough. I would more than likely take out the rest of the army around him as much as possible, and then worry about him. As good as he is he cannot win 2 of the 3 missions alone.

[Corby]

And he is a free kill point. :)

 

 

A veteran squad with meltaguns in a razorback should see him off.

[Arioch]

And he is a free kill point. :D

 

 

A veteran squad with meltaguns in a razorback should see him off.

 

What?! A veteransquad can only have 2 meltaguns, do you know how many wounds that guy has? They can fire once, then Mephiston will make mincemeat of them and munch their razorback as dessert!

[Corby]

Sorry , my bad was thinking Blood angel honor guard. :D

 

Rapid plasma death would do the trick then. Or some Land speeders tottering Multi Meltas.

[swartsengagger]

I've only fought against Mephiston once, in an apocalypse game. And well my Ezekiel killed him in that game in a mind blowing psychic battle that saw Ezekiel cast Mind Worm and Mephiston rolled 6 6 ^^

[DAG42]

And he is a free kill point. :D

 

 

A veteran squad with meltaguns in a razorback should see him off.

 

What?! A veteransquad can only have 2 meltaguns, do you know how many wounds that guy has? They can fire once, then Mephiston will make mincemeat of them and munch their razorback as dessert!

 

Vet sgt - combi-melta - sgt has access to whole list if I remember reading it here in the pdf/faq rules section.

3 vets- combi melta's

1 vet- melta gun

1 vet- multi melta

[Corby]

Vet sgt - combi-melta - sgt has access to whole list if I remember reading it here in the pdf/faq rules section.

3 vets- combi melta's

1 vet- melta gun

1 vet- multi melta

 

Plasma would be a better choice as you hit on 3s and wound on 3s but get 8 shots compared to 4.

[Arioch]

And he is a free kill point. :)

 

 

A veteran squad with meltaguns in a razorback should see him off.

 

What?! A veteransquad can only have 2 meltaguns, do you know how many wounds that guy has? They can fire once, then Mephiston will make mincemeat of them and munch their razorback as dessert!

 

Vet sgt - combi-melta - sgt has access to whole list if I remember reading it here in the pdf/faq rules section.

3 vets- combi melta's

1 vet- melta gun

1 vet- multi melta

 

Still not likely that he will die, they will have to hit him and be within 12" if they want to use the meltagun. I think plasma is better, although a combined plasma/melta could work well (perhabs)

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Well, if everything fails... 10 veterans with combi plasma. they would cost as much as Mephiston and will kill him. Luckily they'll kill mephiston and something else to make up their points..

[Desert Eagle]

Against our codex....Mephy is really a bit too good. Honestly. While we can kill him and can put together units for the job, those will be pricy and in the case of Ezekiel maybe not even fitting the context of the army at all. Who wants to pay 170p for a footslogging librarian in a ravenwing army as an example? And since the regular libby isn't reliably going to shut down many powers without a lot of luck (Ezekiel is in fact the only way to get a ld10 hood for us unless one uses allies, like a demonhunter captain for instance) I think that is one of the main problems, that Mephiston makes us include units that isn't going to end up in many lists unless expecting to face him. I mean, you just don't see full thunderhammer termy squads in raiders using our codex. As such, all commer DA-lists will struggle. Ignore him and he will eat you, shoot him and the rest of your army will instead. We can't really feed him units either as everything in our codex is relatively expensive. A venerable dread can with some luck bog him down for a couple of turns if that sword power is cancelled...but that is a poor tactic at best with a lot of ifs needed to work out.

 

I know you didn't want to hear about plasma as a solution...but frankly, i don't see many other options using our codex. A full vet squad, with fist, mg, and say 5 combiplasmas arriving in a pod will likely put him down. The drop pod should give the vets a decent shot at deploying in a position where they can deny you of that 4+ coversave. Also, they can contribute after the initial strike like Caplain Lucifer pointed out. Maybe slowing down your advance a bit before dying. They can of course arrive too late to save the day when the slaughter is already over. It is way above the 300p mark for such a unit so the trade off in points vs points will be bad. But i guess being handicapped in points is something we´re used to already. ;)

 

But...if its mainly just friendly games why not go with another hq for games both will enjoy? I sure know it isn't fun when Mephiston plows through half my army. He is small enough to hide, fast enough to not be outmanouvered, can take a whole can of whoopass and ask for more and man, he sure can bring some pain of his own. And its not like you don't have other tasty hq's in your codex.

[shortysl]

Mephiston is a ridiculously powerful character and i've been hard pressed myself to find a solution for him. The only surefire way of taking him down i've found so far is start playing planetstrike games and hit him with a teleport barrage. Even if you only get away with it once in your entire life, the look of sheer horror on your opponents face when Mephiston's 2+ armour save results in him getting intimate with a wall is worth it B)

[EPK]

But...if its mainly just friendly games why not go with another hq for games both will enjoy? I sure know it isn't fun when Mephiston plows through half my army.

 

Frankly, that's what I was thinking. If you already crushed him a few times with Meph, why not try some other HQ/builds to use against him. At the very least, you may both enjoy a nice even matchup AND you would learn to use the HQs better. So really, it's win-win.

[templarphoenix]

5 men vet all with combi-plasma(melta) and a drop pod.

Drop besides Meph, making a suicide attack...(1500+ pts ofcourse)

 

The funniest things is, this tactic is first used by BA player here, so I just copied his tactic and killed his Meph... :P

[Crynn]

Against our codex....Mephy is really a bit too good. Honestly. While we can kill him and can put together units for the job, those will be pricy and in the case of Ezekiel maybe not even fitting the context of the army at all. Who wants to pay 170p for a footslogging librarian in a ravenwing army as an example? And since the regular libby isn't reliably going to shut down many powers without a lot of luck (Ezekiel is in fact the only way to get a ld10 hood for us unless one uses allies, like a demonhunter captain for instance) I think that is one of the main problems, that Mephiston makes us include units that isn't going to end up in many lists unless expecting to face him. I mean, you just don't see full thunderhammer termy squads in raiders using our codex. As such, all commer DA-lists will struggle. Ignore him and he will eat you, shoot him and the rest of your army will instead. We can't really feed him units either as everything in our codex is relatively expensive. A venerable dread can with some luck bog him down for a couple of turns if that sword power is cancelled...but that is a poor tactic at best with a lot of ifs needed to work out.

 

I know you didn't want to hear about plasma as a solution...but frankly, i don't see many other options using our codex. A full vet squad, with fist, mg, and say 5 combiplasmas arriving in a pod will likely put him down. The drop pod should give the vets a decent shot at deploying in a position where they can deny you of that 4+ coversave. Also, they can contribute after the initial strike like Caplain Lucifer pointed out. Maybe slowing down your advance a bit before dying. They can of course arrive too late to save the day when the slaughter is already over. It is way above the 300p mark for such a unit so the trade off in points vs points will be bad. But i guess being handicapped in points is something we´re used to already. ;)

 

But...if its mainly just friendly games why not go with another hq for games both will enjoy? I sure know it isn't fun when Mephiston plows through half my army. He is small enough to hide, fast enough to not be outmanouvered, can take a whole can of whoopass and ask for more and man, he sure can bring some pain of his own. And its not like you don't have other tasty hq's in your codex.

 

 

i SEE YOUR POINT AND MY AIM ISN'T TO SMASH HIM TO GROUND RATHER TO MAKE US BOTH BETTER PLAYERS. tHE MAIN PROBLEM IS i AM RUNNING YM ALLCOMERS LIST AND THUS DNT REALLY WANT TO CHANGE IT. crap mind the caps at work atm. So my problem remains, I think its good for him to learn to deal weith him and i believe TH?SS are the best way even though the DA ones arent as good. The reason I say this is meph rarely gets shot at by plasma as he so easy to hide. really apprecaite the advice guys. Refreshing to hear people say. "look actually we dont have a brilliant counter for him" at least I know its honest and not an answer coming from idiots.

 

Much aprreciated

 

Crynn

[Hemal]

Vindies.. S10 Ordnance is always going to hurt anyone, and you can field two pie-plates with a 24" range, more than capable of taking down ANY units in the BA list - and with a 24" range you are going to get a reasonable number of hits on him, as well as any scary retinues he has tagging along which can aslo eat your units for close combat breakfast

[atra angelus]

If you want a more detailed answer than what follows (which is just generalist musings) youll have to post more information. Specifically, what is the DA player using, what is he willing to use (ie change to), and why exactly is Meph being problematic (ie, always winding up in cc? always killing his deathwing? always taking away too much shooting from elsewhere? etc). There is yet some variety to effective DA builds, and quite a large amount more if youre willing to put up with a few non-competitive aspects of the book. And all of those will potentially find Meph troubling for different reasons. We need a context and a specific problem to provide a more exact solution.

 

That said, in generalist terms Meph is hard for DA because he does everything we dont really well. Even a generic "use TH/SS terms" isnt exactly the same as elsewhere since our storm shields arent the same, which compounds the issue. Anything that will not die to average-ish shooting, that has both high mobility and significant assault power is a problem for DA. It denies us the time needed to wear it down, and forces us to face its best scenario with what is generally our worst (assault). So the two key points in facing it are: buy time to deal with it, and use the right tools for the job to minimize how much time you need to buy. If Meph executes his main plan of getting into CC and does it in a timely fashion, odds are whatever unit he hits is a write off; and to top it off doing so typically increases the odds of it happening again as few elements in a DA army are solo elements (we rely heavily on synergy and supporting strategies to compensate for mostly outdated choices).

 

To buy time theres not a whole lot that can be done. A hood of some kind is a possibility. The best case is an allied GK hood at ld10, but if he wants to stay pure DA a simple Librarian in Terminator Armor can suffice (probably toss him in with a unit of DW elsewhere so hes useful otherwise, our hoods are table wide). But neither of those is really a safe bet, they are simply nice to include if its convenient.

 

You could use a tar pit element, the trouble being that against Meph very few things will endure long enough to generate significant time. The best thing I can come up with that isnt wholly devoted to Meph specifically is a Venerable/XA Dread with DCCW. Its good against anything, but even Meph might struggle to single round it. He will likely throw 6 attacks on the charge, generate 5.33 hits, 3.55 penetrates, 1.18 wrecked/destroyed, which (after venerable reroll) is only about a 40% chance to die in one charge (maybe 50/50 ballpark if he got enough weapon destroyed/immobilized to chain up to wreck from all the non-destroyed results). Yea, 50/50 isnt that great, but for 165 points its a pretty convincing attempt.

 

Anything else is going to cost a lot more, like a full DW unit which would still suffer the same 6 attacks, 5.33 hits, 4.44 wounds, 2.96 unsaved after invulnerables, meaning that while 2 might survive initially theres a 50/50 shot youll be down to 1 after fearless saves for losing. Slightly higher at perhaps 3 surviving (but with a good chance at least 2 survive fearless saves) if they all had TH/SS, and this is why I do not advocate trying to use DW for the task. Even though the duration is a slightly safer bet, losing such valuable units wholesale can be crippling. So I prefer the cheaper option.

 

A simple full tactical squad is essentially more survivable than either of those two Elite choices (with 5.56 marines surviving the charge, meaning that even after being caught in a sweeping advance by I7 Meph and taking one out for the plasma pistol shot beforehand, at least two should still survive after the fearless saves, so superior odds) but its unlikely youll be able to win 2/3rds of the game scenarios by throwing your troops into the grinder that rapidly. Not to mention that if all your troops mass in one area of the table, its likely they will have to deal with more than just Meph. At least with Dread and DW its probable the unit could operate a bit farther from your own lines on its own, making it harder for Meph to chain into other targets.

 

So, at the end of the day, the Ven Dread is the cheapest point wise, with great utility elsewhere, and would be my choice if going this route. The last note about the Dread is, "but why would Meph charge it"? And thats true, hes likely going to aim at just about anything else first (this is one advantage the DW option does have, Meph wont take any convincing to zerg in). However, those Dreads are one of the few elements (besides DW) that can seriously route a lot of the BA assault elements by pinning them down and giving us time for a coordinated response. Ive won a few games vs BA by tying up something juicy like Sanguinary Guard with a Dread giving me a round to maneuver a combined charge to wipe them in one go. You pull enough of the other guys points off the table doing that, and the end-game of the match gets a lot easier. Get the Dread in his face, make it a problem, and provoke Meph into trying to stop it.

 

The only other real option to buy time is to simply distract it with throwaway popcorn units for a few turns. Doing something like taking 6 RW bikes with an AB, splitting that into 3 units, boosting all that melta up a flank in combat squads, and making Meph take 3 turns to hit each one could work (or some other similar string of tasty vulnerable units). But the odds of a BA army not having other mobile elements with far less opportunity cost than Meph that will go after them are not in your favor here, and any strategy which costs 150-ish points a round can quickly bleed you dry.

 

As far as using the right tool for the job, youre looking for anything that can readily wound T6 and gets around his 2+ armor. Assault Cannons are one thing thats passable, and easy to include en mass for DA (DW, Speeders, Dreads, all good places to bring some ACs in). With a 50/50 on the wound and a chance at Rending, they can spam him down over time. Sammael in Speeder is an especially good choice for this, as his high maneuverability can actually let him reliably kite Meph (match his speed and shoot the ACs, if he actually fails the Wings power move slower and add the HBs in), and the twin linked BS5 on 4 shots means youre landing at least one wound better than half the time.

 

However, the real weapon of choice is Plasma. The trick is, frequently you may only get one volley in before taking a charge from your target. Again, RW come to the rescue, as a unit of 3 bikes with 2 plasma guns and relentless can both match his speed and fire from a safe distance away. Luckily, its easy to include a few plasma wielding units elsewhere, with our Veterans being a good choice for stacking up (see the DA FAQ for upgrade changes). However, unlike the generic inclusion of ACs and Plasma on units you might otherwise field, a plasma heavy vet squad is more of a tailored solution. Thrown in a pod and possibly combat-squaded on landed (so they dont die to a single charge) its a decent option if youre looking to include a specific counter.

 

A final easy option is a simple Predator Annihilator. While usually focused on tanks, Meph costs the same as a large tank so hey work with it. Able to at least 1 wound a round on Meph with a very high reliability its one idea to help wear him down, and the long range makes it easy to use even in the early rounds. However a canny opponent will use Mephs small size and maneuverability to minimize this long range whittling away of his wounds. But, like several other options, Annihilators can often fit well in a generic list, and using solutions which are viable against any army is always preferable in my opinion.

 

If you do find yourself with a tactical squad (likely in a rhino) near Meph with the chance, its useful to know if hopping out to spam bolter fire will result in anything. Even with 20 shots, his T6 and 2+ make it rather laughable with only 0.37 wounds landed. In other words, it would take around 54 bolter shots to get one wound reliably, and 270 to off Meph completely. So the moral is: dont do it, stay in the rhino and make him waste a turn cracking that first before eating the unit inside. You really need to use serious weapons only on Meph; save the bolters to spam his other units and wear them down instead.

 

Thats about all I have to ramble on the subject off hand. Personally, Id probably try to sneak a Librarian (tossed in with the DW I typically field, with combi plasma to boot) and 2 Dreads in, hope for a lucky break on the hood, and tag team Meph with those dreads and look to buy 3ish rounds off them. If you can tie Meph up for the first half of the game, you might be able to deal with him in time to recover for the second half. Or, handle the rest of the army while hes busy and hope he cant solo a comeback. And if not, and he eats half your army, well at least you get to return the favor with the unoccupied dreads. Tying Meph up can throw someone, especially if theyre used to relying on him to spearhead a break in the lines. No break for a turn or two can leave them wondering exactly where to commit, which may snowball into even more time for you work.

 

A more tailored solution might be Sammael in Speeder, few RW troop bikes with plasma clustered around an apothecary if possible, with a number of AC speeders and the 2 Ven dreads. No ICs for Meph to gaze, lots of firepower and mobility all of which is useful against marines in general, and keeps the dreads to pin units down and attempt to counter the BA mobility so you can try and create room to maneuver. Maybe a unit of DW (or two) to land in off homers mid game and try to wreck a key unit or two. Thats maybe 1650/1700ish points, so decent space to build with and play a 1750/1850 game. Or round the list out with that Plasma Vet Pod unit, and avoid Meph until you can alpha strike him, then go to business as usual. Multiple avenues available to work with only make it easier to deal with the problem, and a list which offers several solutions depending on whats handy at the time will likely have the most success.

 

And lastly, we only have 1 real BA guy around here plus a few casuals, so my local meta is very likely different. And this post obviously will reflect that. So, if its all gibberish out there where you play, so be it. But hopefully at least something will stand out. GL with it.

 

edit: Added an idea or two, and corrected a math error. Its what I get for making a big post and not proofing more than once lol.

[atra angelus]

And adding one last thing here, rather than making a further edit of the other post. Its possible to assault Mephiston and an accompanying unit yourself, however unlikely that may be depends on your opponent, but its possible. If you can manage to hit Meph and a softer target (like a regular assault squad or something), and dump all your attacks into the soft unit, you can win the combat. This will force a hefty Ld check, even for Meph, and if he snaps he can be escorted off the table unless the BA player further commits units to saving him. This isnt really an army specific solution, and its certainly not one DA are well equipped to pull off with our general lack of assault enhancements, but its out there.

 

Perhaps taking a full 10 man Vet squad in a LRC, attaching an Int-Chap, and using the LR disembark to position so the Int-Chap hits the unit and not Meph, but the unit can still lap onto Meph, is the best attempt you could make. (You dont want the Chap to get gazed.) Youd almost certainly route whatever the other target is, with combat shields you might even minimize Mephs damage, and if you survive the single round out in the open afterward you could potentially hop back into the LRC to walk him off while making it hard for the other guy to stop you. Of course, thats spending something like 650-700 points to take out a 250 point guy, so its not really optimal, but if they can get even one other large charge off over the game it could be worth it.

[Crynn]

If you want a more detailed answer than what follows (which is just generalist musings) youll have to post more information. Specifically, what is the DA player using, what is he willing to use (ie change to), and why exactly is Meph being problematic (ie, always winding up in cc? always killing his deathwing? always taking away too much shooting from elsewhere? etc). There is yet some variety to effective DA builds, and quite a large amount more if youre willing to put up with a few non-competitive aspects of the book. And all of those will potentially find Meph troubling for different reasons. We need a context and a specific problem to provide a more exact solution.

 

That said, in generalist terms Meph is hard for DA because he does everything we dont really well. Even a generic "use TH/SS terms" isnt exactly the same as elsewhere since our storm shields arent the same, which compounds the issue. Anything that will not die to average-ish shooting, that has both high mobility and significant assault power is a problem for DA. It denies us the time needed to wear it down, and forces us to face its best scenario with what is generally our worst (assault). So the two key points in facing it are: buy time to deal with it, and use the right tools for the job to minimize how much time you need to buy. If Meph executes his main plan of getting into CC and does it in a timely fashion, odds are whatever unit he hits is a write off; and to top it off doing so typically increases the odds of it happening again as few elements in a DA army are solo elements (we rely heavily on synergy and supporting strategies to compensate for mostly outdated choices).

 

To buy time theres not a whole lot that can be done. A hood of some kind is a possibility. The best case is an allied GK hood at ld10, but if he wants to stay pure DA a simple Librarian in Terminator Armor can suffice (probably toss him in with a unit of DW elsewhere so hes useful otherwise, our hoods are table wide). But neither of those is really a safe bet, they are simply nice to include if its convenient.

 

You could use a tar pit element, the trouble being that against Meph very few things will endure long enough to generate significant time. The best thing I can come up with that isnt wholly devoted to Meph specifically is a Venerable/XA Dread with DCCW. Its good against anything, but even Meph might struggle to single round it. He will likely throw 6 attacks on the charge, generate 5.33 hits, 3.55 penetrates, 1.18 wrecked/destroyed, which (after venerable reroll) is only about a 40% chance to die in one charge (maybe 50/50 ballpark if he got enough weapon destroyed/immobilized to chain up to wreck from all the non-destroyed results). Yea, 50/50 isnt that great, but for 165 points its a pretty convincing attempt.

 

Anything else is going to cost a lot more, like a full DW unit which would still suffer the same 6 attacks, 5.33 hits, 4.44 wounds, 2.96 unsaved after invulnerables, meaning that while 2 might survive initially theres a 50/50 shot youll be down to 1 after fearless saves for losing. Slightly higher at perhaps 3 surviving (but with a good chance at least 2 survive fearless saves) if they all had TH/SS, and this is why I do not advocate trying to use DW for the task. Even though the duration is a slightly safer bet, losing such valuable units wholesale can be crippling. So I prefer the cheaper option.

 

A simple full tactical squad is essentially more survivable than either of those two Elite choices (with 5.56 marines surviving the charge, meaning that even after being caught in a sweeping advance by I7 Meph and taking one out for the plasma pistol shot beforehand, at least two should still survive after the fearless saves, so superior odds) but its unlikely youll be able to win 2/3rds of the game scenarios by throwing your troops into the grinder that rapidly. Not to mention that if all your troops mass in one area of the table, its likely they will have to deal with more than just Meph. At least with Dread and DW its probable the unit could operate a bit farther from your own lines on its own, making it harder for Meph to chain into other targets.

 

So, at the end of the day, the Ven Dread is the cheapest point wise, with great utility elsewhere, and would be my choice if going this route. The last note about the Dread is, "but why would Meph charge it"? And thats true, hes likely going to aim at just about anything else first (this is one advantage the DW option does have, Meph wont take any convincing to zerg in). However, those Dreads are one of the few elements (besides DW) that can seriously route a lot of the BA assault elements by pinning them down and giving us time for a coordinated response. Ive won a few games vs BA by tying up something juicy like Sanguinary Guard with a Dread giving me a round to maneuver a combined charge to wipe them in one go. You pull enough of the other guys points off the table doing that, and the end-game of the match gets a lot easier. Get the Dread in his face, make it a problem, and provoke Meph into trying to stop it.

 

The only other real option to buy time is to simply distract it with throwaway popcorn units for a few turns. Doing something like taking 6 RW bikes with an AB, splitting that into 3 units, boosting all that melta up a flank in combat squads, and making Meph take 3 turns to hit each one could work (or some other similar string of tasty vulnerable units). But the odds of a BA army not having other mobile elements with far less opportunity cost than Meph that will go after them are not in your favor here, and any strategy which costs 150-ish points a round can quickly bleed you dry.

 

As far as using the right tool for the job, youre looking for anything that can readily wound T6 and gets around his 2+ armor. Assault Cannons are one thing thats passable, and easy to include en mass for DA (DW, Speeders, Dreads, all good places to bring some ACs in). With a 50/50 on the wound and a chance at Rending, they can spam him down over time. Sammael in Speeder is an especially good choice for this, as his high maneuverability can actually let him reliably kite Meph (match his speed and shoot the ACs, if he actually fails the Wings power move slower and add the HBs in), and the twin linked BS5 on 4 shots means youre landing at least one wound better than half the time.

 

However, the real weapon of choice is Plasma. The trick is, frequently you may only get one volley in before taking a charge from your target. Again, RW come to the rescue, as a unit of 3 bikes with 2 plasma guns and relentless can both match his speed and fire from a safe distance away. Luckily, its easy to include a few plasma wielding units elsewhere, with our Veterans being a good choice for stacking up (see the DA FAQ for upgrade changes). However, unlike the generic inclusion of ACs and Plasma on units you might otherwise field, a plasma heavy vet squad is more of a tailored solution. Thrown in a pod and possibly combat-squaded on landed (so they dont die to a single charge) its a decent option if youre looking to include a specific counter.

 

A final easy option is a simple Predator Annihilator. While usually focused on tanks, Meph costs the same as a large tank so hey work with it. Able to at least 1 wound a round on Meph with a very high reliability its one idea to help wear him down, and the long range makes it easy to use even in the early rounds. However a canny opponent will use Mephs small size and maneuverability to minimize this long range whittling away of his wounds. But, like several other options, Annihilators can often fit well in a generic list, and using solutions which are viable against any army is always preferable in my opinion.

 

If you do find yourself with a tactical squad (likely in a rhino) near Meph with the chance, its useful to know if hopping out to spam bolter fire will result in anything. Even with 20 shots, his T6 and 2+ make it rather laughable with only 0.37 wounds landed. In other words, it would take around 54 bolter shots to get one wound reliably, and 270 to off Meph completely. So the moral is: dont do it, stay in the rhino and make him waste a turn cracking that first before eating the unit inside. You really need to use serious weapons only on Meph; save the bolters to spam his other units and wear them down instead.

 

Thats about all I have to ramble on the subject off hand. Personally, Id probably try to sneak a Librarian (tossed in with the DW I typically field, with combi plasma to boot) and 2 Dreads in, hope for a lucky break on the hood, and tag team Meph with those dreads and look to buy 3ish rounds off them. If you can tie Meph up for the first half of the game, you might be able to deal with him in time to recover for the second half. Or, handle the rest of the army while hes busy and hope he cant solo a comeback. And if not, and he eats half your army, well at least you get to return the favor with the unoccupied dreads. Tying Meph up can throw someone, especially if theyre used to relying on him to spearhead a break in the lines. No break for a turn or two can leave them wondering exactly where to commit, which may snowball into even more time for you work.

 

A more tailored solution might be Sammael in Speeder, few RW troop bikes with plasma clustered around an apothecary if possible, with a number of AC speeders and the 2 Ven dreads. No ICs for Meph to gaze, lots of firepower and mobility all of which is useful against marines in general, and keeps the dreads to pin units down and attempt to counter the BA mobility so you can try and create room to maneuver. Maybe a unit of DW (or two) to land in off homers mid game and try to wreck a key unit or two. Thats maybe 1650/1700ish points, so decent space to build with and play a 1750/1850 game. Or round the list out with that Plasma Vet Pod unit, and avoid Meph until you can alpha strike him, then go to business as usual. Multiple avenues available to work with only make it easier to deal with the problem, and a list which offers several solutions depending on whats handy at the time will likely have the most success.

 

And lastly, we only have 1 real BA guy around here plus a few casuals, so my local meta is very likely different. And this post obviously will reflect that. So, if its all gibberish out there where you play, so be it. But hopefully at least something will stand out. GL with it.

 

edit: Added an idea or two, and corrected a math error. Its what I get for making a big post and not proofing more than once lol.

 

 

No ramble at all there mate. This is one of the best posts I've read. Really want to thank you for putting in the time for that one. So now I'll do you the favor of being a little more specific on what exactly is going down at my local store with my blood angels.

 

My friend is willing to play with any dark angel models but no allies he pretty much has every DA model under the sun and while he really wants to beat me and has had a draw with me once or twice both games he got a little lucky and had the game continued i still would have probably gotten up on him. He has slowly been tayloring his list to beat mine but he idealy if possible wants to play an all comers list. We have a good deamon player and a great chaos player in the area as well. My list is as follows and while its not the hardest BA list in the world I'd like to think I'm a pretty compitent general and I'm yet to loose with it, quite a few draws but no losses yet. So here's my list

 

1750 all comers

 

HQ

 

Mephiston

 

Honour Guard

Jump Packs, 2x Lightning Claws, 2x Meltagun

 

 

Troops

 

10 man tac squad

fist, combi melta, melta gun, missile launcher

Rhino with dozer blade

 

5 man Assault squad

fist and melta gun

 

5 man Assault squad with packs off

meltagun

Razorback with twinlinked heavy flamers

 

Elites

 

Librarian Dreadnaught

Wings of Sanguinius and Shield

 

Fast Attack

 

Ball Predator

Assault Cannon, Heavy Bolters and Dozer Blade

 

Heavy Support

 

2x Vindicator

Dozer Blade

 

And thats it!

 

The last list I faced was very nasty and had a very good Chaos general behind it. It looked like this.

 

HQ

 

Abaddon

 

Sorceror

Wings, Lash

 

Heavy Support

 

2x 3 man squads of Obliterators

 

Troops

 

2x 10 man Plauge Marine Squad

2x meltagun and fist

 

1 squad had a rhino

 

2 x 5 man terminator Squad

Chain fist 2x Power Fist 2x Power Weapon and all with combi meltas

 

So I just managed a win against this list even with all my vehicles and all his anti vehicle weapons. My point is I'm a solid general and against my DA friend I hide my dread and Meph behind vehicles and cover so they literally cant be seen untill i decide when to jump them into units. Presuming my enemy doesnt have any or any effective templates I just huddle around my dread and meph use shield to provide cover saves as well as smoke on transports, it is very rare for me not to have a 4+ cover save on a vehivle at any point 5+ at worst and with fnp on the troops who are behind vehicles as well breaking my line becomes a little difficult. So you have a basicl idea of how I generally play although it greatly differs depending on what I'm facing, that was just ideal.

 

So considering he can take whatever he wants but also has to be able to defeat other opponents what do you think he should do?

[breng77]

If I were your friend I would lean toward playing Ravenwing, both of you have assault power that he really cannot match. Ravenwing would give him superior mobility and good shooting. It would make KP missions tough but the other 2 missions would look like pretty easy wins for him actually, especially a 5 objective seize ground as he could field 6 - 12 scoring units pretty easily. My 1750 list runs with 9 Multi-meltas making killing vehicles pretty easy, and with scouts he can get around you fast by moving up before turn one or outflanking with everything. Outflanking would also make it harder for you to hide as he could be coming from all kinds of different angles.

[krewl]

If I were your friend I would lean toward playing Ravenwing, both of you have assault power that he really cannot match. Ravenwing would give him superior mobility and good shooting. It would make KP missions tough but the other 2 missions would look like pretty easy wins for him actually, especially a 5 objective seize ground as he could field 6 - 12 scoring units pretty easily. My 1750 list runs with 9 Multi-meltas making killing vehicles pretty easy, and with scouts he can get around you fast by moving up before turn one or outflanking with everything. Outflanking would also make it harder for you to hide as he could be coming from all kinds of different angles.

I love you Breng77..

Any chance you'd post your 1750 list as I have just 7 MM's in my (1700) RW list, 5 AB and 2 speeders. Curious how you build you list.

 

Ontopic:

RW seems like a good thing, but if your opponent has not played RW before he'll lose with them, and hard at that, as RW is glass knife type of army you need to learn to play with before you get the feel for it. Then it becomes an army that is hard to beat, and that has a good chance to win.

 

You'd need propper ranged anti tank, MM attack bikes are good at that (24"of double penetration dice, against rayzors/rhino's even 36"of threat is good.) Especially as you want meph to run up, so you can expect the rhino/rayzor to advance for him to hide behind.

 

Also looking at the BA list I see there is not that much of a ranged HW threat, plenty of 24" death though. That means this list come's your way and you're up defending against it. I'd play my RW split up, chaplain + bannered full bikessquad would stay back behind terrain, 2 squads + attack bike outflanking with meltaaguns. My speeders & attack bikes would manouvre in groups for shots on the vindies and other armour. My Sammy on jetybike would stay back aswell, hope for sniper shots on de-meched tacticals.

 

Sadly though it is very hard to explain RW tactics as they are so fluid and game dependent that they are hard to explain in text.

In short I'd dance around turboboosting a lot until you're in 24" then zoom up here and there. I'd use AB's to threaten side shots on the vindies, always boosting for 3+ chance to survive those S10 blasts.

 

I'd love to play the BA list, It would be a challenge :confused:.

 

@topic starter, you should really think of some disruption elements. drop pods are good for DA as they do not drop in T1.

Ravenwing, even if you don't play full RW are good anti tank units, allowing you to take out the vindies or the librarian dread.

 

And always remeber, you are not playing Mephiston, you are playing a mission, keep that in mind and you can win while losing 75% of your list.

[breng77]

My 1750 point list (which I have gone 4-1 with and won a tourney) is as follows

 

HQ

Sammael in speeder

 

Troops

RAS

3 bikes (2 plasma, apoth)

Ab w/ MM

 

RAS

3 Bikes (1 melta, 1 plasma unfortunately not enough points for 2 plasma)

AB w/ MM

 

4 x RAS

3 bikes (2 flamers)

AB/MM

 

Fast attack

3 x Speeder (MM and Typhoon ML, though I am thinking about changing to HF speeders as Mass flamers seems to have more of a punch than the Typhoons do)

 

Heavy Support

2 x Dakka Pred (AC W/Spon HB).

 

It is rough for KP (which is the only mission I have lost), but in objective missions it is quite easy to Control a few and contest the rest with speeders our bikes, as you are running 12 scoring units, and people often forget about attack bikes being scoring.

 

As for tactics with a list like this, it is pretty much keep away and pick your fights. I use the MM to take out my opponents mobility early, and then wolfpack a bunch of units to take out one unit, forcing lots of saves with the Flamers helps take out a lot of units (not Meph really, but for him, I would use MM or rapid fire bolters even if I had too.) The one time I have faced him he killed one AB and lost in an objective mission as the BA controlled 0 and DA controlled 3.

 

Also if I had first turn I would place a far up as possible with the AB and then Scout foreward, then move 12 and be in melta range of quite a bit of your army unless you reserve or place in a corner, take out the 2 vindicators and your transports, then shoot you as you move across the table on Foot.