Justify Sanguinary guard to me

[Demoulius]

hello gents,

 

been slowly starting to play 40k a while after having to stop for a while.

 

ive been trying a few things out but the only thing that i cant really see a reason or a way to fit in my army is the sanguinary guard...

 

they just seem overpriced for a unit without an invunerable save, max size of 5 and with only 2 attacks a piece...sure its master crafted but that doesent increase the maximum carnage they could wreak :) a priest would almost be mandatory to give them some protection and even then AP2 weapons and powerweapons ignore both their shiney 2+ save and their 4+ FNP save....so yea :blush:

 

can you guys name something these guys can do better than a normal 10 man assault squad? (whos scoring to btw) basicly the same points depending on upgrades (naked the assault squad is cheaper, less durable yes but more attacks)

 

id really like to try these guys out but until i find a good reason to make em aside from their "bling" i think the chances would be pretty slim :cry:

[daboarder]

basically these guys suffer the same weekness 3rd ed terminators suffered, the lack of invul, which is why 4th ed termies got a 5++ save personally I think the SG should have gotten the same or perhaps a 6++.

[Brother_Dan'l]

Look, it's a squad that's going to cost you between 290 (squad + SP w/JP & PW) and whatever. Mine runs 250 w/Chapter Banner, Power Fist & Infernus Pistol. Add in a 90 point SP and you got a semi-scary squad that costs about 100 points more than my common RAS-10. Is it totally as effective. No, not really. Is it a damned fine counter charge and force multiplier squad? Hells yes! Put a pair of RAS-10 in front of this unit and go get 'em. The RAS soak up tons of fire and still hit hard and the SG are damned near impossible to kill with 2+ armor, 4+ cover and 4+ FNP. I doubt the SP really is part of the equation since he was going to be part of the army anyway. So for 740 points you got a really strong army core that can handle damned near any threat they'll face.

 

:D I think I just solved a large bit of my concern with creating a 2K army on that thread I started. The other 1260 should be easy. It's fun being a bit delusional. ;)

[Redo]

Whilst I am yet to use this unit; fluffwise they are is pretty cool. Gamewise not so super.

 

Like many there are a few things that bug me about them. If I could change them I would get rid of the Blade Encarmine and have regular PWs. I also think that THs fit in well with this unit, instead of PFs. I would have also given them the option to have Stormshields - 20 points a pop though to limit their use. Even Combat Shields would have been great. I like the imagery of Space Knights with swords and shields. Might change that Death Mask rule as the masks are rather expensive considering the liklihood of that rule working.

Anyway that is just dreaming becuase none of this is going to change anytime soon

 

Gamewise this unit still has a fair bit of potential but I think you need to consider a couple of things when using them;

 

1. The should have a Priest nearby for survivability and FC for maximum carnage.

2. Utilise cover as much as possible or the Libby shield power.

3. Direct them against the most appropriate opponents (they are not a jack of all trade assault unit) [to me this means avioding opponents that have the potential to dish out save ignoring attacks or can pile on a plethora of normal hits such as orks]

 

As such I see them as not the most versatile unit but a good for modest elite hunting or attacking isolated units or just to spice up the mix once in a while.

 

Bit sad as they have so much fluff potential. Oh, they do have some fantastic bits though!

[Aramis_the_Red]

Yeah, I don't love the Sanguinary Guard, but I do love the kit. Those bitz are freaking awesome.

[LordofDeath11]

Whilst I am yet to use this unit; fluffwise they are is pretty cool. Gamewise not so super.

 

Like many there are a few things that bug me about them. If I could change them I would get rid of the Blade Encarmine and have regular PWs. I also think that THs fit in well with this unit, instead of PFs. I would have also given them the option to have Stormshields - 20 points a pop though to limit their use. Even Combat Shields would have been great. I like the imagery of Space Knights with swords and shields. Might change that Death Mask rule as the masks are rather expensive considering the liklihood of that rule working.

Anyway that is just dreaming becuase none of this is going to change anytime soon

 

Gamewise this unit still has a fair bit of potential but I think you need to consider a couple of things when using them;

 

1. The should have a Priest nearby for survivability and FC for maximum carnage.

2. Utilise cover as much as possible or the Libby shield power.

3. Direct them against the most appropriate opponents (they are not a jack of all trade assault unit) [to me this means avioding opponents that have the potential to dish out save ignoring attacks or can pile on a plethora of normal hits such as orks]

 

As such I see them as not the most versatile unit but a good for modest elite hunting or attacking isolated units or just to spice up the mix once in a while.

 

Bit sad as they have so much fluff potential. Oh, they do have some fantastic bits though!

 

Why would you want power weapon's instead of Blade Encarmine's if they have wrist mounted pistol's anyway??

 

And the Death mask option is only 25 pts. For the entire squad, that's 5 pts each, so pretty cheap in reality.

[Massawyrm]

Dante makes them troops. This is pretty much the point to them. Taking Dante means being able to run a veteran only army - which some of us guys enjoy running. I've always been disappointed that there are no ways to run a 1st Company army. Sanguinary Guard allow you to. It's also more of a fluff unit than a competative one. they're fantastic - but not in games where your enemy is sporting 20 twin linked melta shots.

[Skanwy]

Hi Demoulius,

 

I absolutely agree with Brother_Dan that the Sanguinary Guard (SG) are a fine counter charge unit :P I have a SG army and i take Dante to make them Troops.

 

However, as a single unit, they still give you some nice options. You could arm the unit with an Infernus pistol or two, and powerfist to go tank hunting. Or you could arm them with 4 plasma pistols (powerfist optional) to give them more range and target some light vehicles or regular enemy termis. Also, their 2+ armor save can help with a high chance to pass any gets hot rolls as well ;)

 

Also they are armed with power weapons, which most enemy units do not get a save. Although the RAS probably generates much more attacks, much of it can be saved by your opponent.

 

I find the lack of Invul save for SG to be a slight hindrance indeed. But hopefully by hugging cover for some cover save, some of the disadvantages can be negated. Their advantage as compared to Termis, is their speed. Termis can only move 6" or Deep Strike with scatter 2D6. But SG can move 12" and scatter less on the drop. This allows you to move into cover if needed before you launch a vital assault.

 

Their Angelus boltguns are also great at targeting anything with a 4+ save and above.

 

Plus the minis are just so sweet! :)

[Brother Nathan]

jumpy libby! with sheild and whatever else you want. then you basically have flying termies....they specialise at killing wimpy stuff though but quicker thann other unis of the same size. for example against guard their bolters will mow them down, and their power weapons likewise and in return they will survive a large volley of las and anything else short of plasma, and they only fear fists and power weapons in cc. yes ever would hurts alot. And they shouldnt go near anything that specialises in cc. great for killing support squads like devs too. but then again an assault squad or an vet squad etc can all do that just not as effictively at 5 man size. would be better with a 10 man ras though...

[Brother-Captain Devlonir]

So the consensus really seems to be..

Termies are great anti-Elite choices, while the Sang Guard are much better equipped to be anti troop and support infantry (like Devastators).

Also, Termies are awesome at taking out slow heavy vehicles (chainfists mmmhmm) and monstrous creatures while Sang Guard can be equipped to go after fast vehicles.

 

Sounds like they fill a gap neither tactical or assault termies can fill..

[Brother Nathan]

that seems dead on. i would just advoid throwing too many extra points on them over a fist and possibly a banner

[Brother_Dan'l]

Spend the points on at least one Infernus Pistol. Descent of Angels is great but you might still end up close to a vehicle of dreadnought and being able to nail it with a melta shot or two is worth the points.

[Brother Nathan]

i disagree on that. firing that one shot at a veichle means you are wasting those angelus bolter shots, and if you are tat far off target then you must be in trouble. id prefer to run them to to spread out and advoid plasma cannon rounds. the only worth while time to give them inferno is with dante...

[Deus_Sanguinius]

I have to disagree. The banner is quite essential for SG because, thanks to the 2-handed power weapons and the limited squad size, they need every attack at initiative they can get. So no fist for me on SG because it is not their task to kill things you would need a fist for. I would recommend at least 2 Infernus Pistols to soften up MC or to attack vehicles (just in case). Or just instant kill some infanterie. So there would be no waste of the Angelus Bolters in most scenarios.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

If you dont like them there are plenty of other choices to pick from. BA have a plethora of unique units to choose from and it's easy to take what you want as nothing really fills out any slots in the FOC. I like this unit as they offer what I want and it fits my play style. I see Honor Guard as having some similarities and you can even go more crazy with them in terms of options and upgrades but the 2+ save has some value in and of itself.

 

0b

 

hello gents,

 

been slowly starting to play 40k a while after having to stop for a while.

 

ive been trying a few things out but the only thing that i cant really see a reason or a way to fit in my army is the sanguinary guard...

 

they just seem overpriced for a unit without an invunerable save, max size of 5 and with only 2 attacks a piece...sure its master crafted but that doesent increase the maximum carnage they could wreak :sweat: a priest would almost be mandatory to give them some protection and even then AP2 weapons and powerweapons ignore both their shiney 2+ save and their 4+ FNP save....so yea ;)

 

can you guys name something these guys can do better than a normal 10 man assault squad? (whos scoring to btw) basicly the same points depending on upgrades (naked the assault squad is cheaper, less durable yes but more attacks)

 

id really like to try these guys out but until i find a good reason to make em aside from their "bling" i think the chances would be pretty slim <_<

[Demoulius]

glad im not the only one who has trouble justifying them :) would like some advice from someone who runs a squad of them though :D

 

id still like to try them out someday, maybe il make a silly list to go with them, with all flying stuff. flying raiders and flying dreadnoughts anyone? :lol:

[Redo]

quote]

 

Why would you want power weapon's instead of Blade Encarmine's if they have wrist mounted pistol's anyway??

 

And the Death mask option is only 25 pts. For the entire squad, that's 5 pts each, so pretty cheap in reality.

 

To be fair if they had power weapon's...yes they would need to have bolt pistols...true but the point really is that the BE is not the best power weapon. Its' rules mean that it has a limited amount of attacks and this limit's this small unit's ability to challenge large units.

The Death Mask thing. Do a search; the general consenus is that they are not worth their price. So many units have a LD9 or more and there are so many elite units with LD10. The chance that the DM will work is negibile and units with low LD generally have WS3 or less so you are hitting on 3's anyway, which happens to be the best you can get. Consenus; Death Masks are not work 25 points.

[SnorriSnorrison]

glad im not the only one who has trouble justifying them ;) would like some advice from someone who runs a squad of them though ;)

 

Here! Here! I´m here! :P

 

Well, in most of my games, I played Marines. This is were the SG really shine, because all of their attacks ignore Powerarmour, and this is, to an extent, what Marines rely on.

Once, they have been assaulted by 3 units: 5 Terminators with a Termi-Libby, and 2 combat squads, each with Sergeant equipped with PF.

Yeah, my Captain and Sanguinary Priest were around as well, but the SG killed the Librarian, and 2 Marines from the two combat squads and a Terminator as well. So yeah, they are able to dish out some damage, but they need support to work.

 

The Infernus-Pistol is a must, as well as the banner. The extra attack also applies for joined ICs, so why not attaching someone choppy to them? I don´t really use a fist in my squad. They are limited to 5 guys, and their biggest strength is to strike simultaneously with or before the enemy, kill as many as possible and rely on the 2+ safe to survive any countercharges or what else. The fist not only reduces the initiative, but also the number of attacks - and as said, they are few in numbers and need to kill the majority of their foes right with init 4/5 to get out of the pit.

Some could argue that a fist would be worthwhile against dreads or vehicles - in my humble opinion, if you get caught by a dread, you are doing it wrong. :P

 

 

 

Snorri

[thor1234]

my main opponents are Nids, CSM & Eldar, agaisnt low (ish) T and/or low Armour saves then RAS are much better, the low armour saves of the foe nulify the lack of power weapons, but against SM/CSM SG are always going to get my vote, for five of them without IP's etc they are cheaper than VV W/JP and PW, thought they dont dish out quite as many attacks those MC attacks can easily swing the fight......

[Sviox]

I would only ever run SG in a mech list with Dante and even then only one squad with chapter banner, supported by other RAS squads and sanguinary priest(s).

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

I really like them. There are of course 'better' ways to spend 200 points in the game/codex, but that's not good enough a reason for me. I love the models and they have been quite good gamewise most of the time. Even when you loose one or two to shooting they still hit really hard. Stay away from high initiative power weapons (howling banshees for example) and you'll do ok... at the same time their AP-4 assault 2 pistols help them thin lines before the CC pretty nicely.

 

Deep striking them is actually pretty good. Come in behind cover with DoA and next turn do your thing...

[Zeller]

SG are not 1st company vets IIRC. They're an independent group of vets. Considering their 'awesome' fluff on their page I'm dissappointed they don't have WS5 or something that actually sets them apart skillwise. No WS4 marine with wings and a nice gun is going to hold off a demon gate or whatever the fantastical stories said.

 

That said for 200 points I'd rather have a Terminator squad. Add in the cost of a banner and IP to the SG and I can buy myself an AC on the termies instead. Plus, TDA has that 5++ and guns with twice the range. I'd like to find a use for the SG I have though. It is their purpose that is most elusive though against PA as has been said they should do quite well. Should they be used to finish off PA squads or fly in and crack a new squad? What happens if the combat becomes protracted and the enemy sends reinforcements to join the melee?

 

Also, the 2 attacks isn't big in my opinion because in my mind they are just flying terminators...sort of. Vets have 2 attacks regardless of their codex location.

[DeadBeatBert]

Pros:

 

They draw a lot of fire power away from my assault troops when I deep strike en masse. That gives my power fists and melta guns a higher fire rate over three or four turns (averaging for bad re-rolls on DoA).

 

I like the flying terminator option with the chapter banner for that extra attack. 4 no save attacks (plus on re-roll to hit) on a charge. Confers that bonus to an adjoining IC

 

They cut through IG troops like they weren't there.

 

They look awesome (see point one) and have great fluff.

 

Cons:

 

A wee bit pricey for no invulnerable save.

 

Bad decision making on a deep strike can cost you the true effectiveness of the unit before they get going.

 

Ideally needs support from an IC.

 

 

 

Overall I pick them over Terminators if I want or need maneuverability or I know that they will distract my opponent long enough to get my assault troops where I want them. If I know that moving 12" isn't that big a requirement I'll take 5 Terminators and maybe an assault cannon so I can put 50 points of tank killing power into an assault squad or two.

 

I've used them about 10 times now and only once have they failed to take out more points than I put into them.

 

Lastly, my brother in law hates facing them so much he calls them the Sanctimonious Guard.

[SamaNagol]

Because they WILL kill absolutely anything they charge.

[Redo]

Because they WILL kill absolutely anything they charge.

 

This is a big, big call.

 

Even if Sang. Guard get the charge on nasties like Hive Tyrant and guard...they are going to die before they strike. That Lash Whip will sort them out.

Howling Bansees. mmm. The Banshee mask and the plethora of power weapons will take out the Sang. Guard again.

What about Harlequinns. With enough rends and the odd power weapon, the guard will have problems here too, me thinks.

What about the Deciever he is quite nasty too or a big pile of genestealers, 30 Ork Boys with a power klaw armed nob

 

My point is if they cannot strike first there are a fair few that can take them out or seriously reduce them before they strike...or after striking may still have the numbers to overwhelm them. 5 is sometimes just not enough.