Justify Sanguinary guard to me

[Brother Captain Kezef]

SG lose termie invulnerbales for jump packs, it's all a trade off.

 

Nobody wants to see the ultimate uber unit that has everything, it'll just ruin the game.

[Lokied]

Think of it this way: 5 SG=200 pts w/Jump pack, 2-shot bolter at ap4, 2 attacks base, master crafted power weapon, and a 2+ save

 

5 VAS=300pts+ easy w/jump pack, 1-shot bolter, 2 attacks base, normal power weapon for everyone, and 3+ save

 

Also just a quick aside, termies did have a 5+ invul in 3rd. edition. check page 35 of the 3rd. edition codex if you don't believe me. Then rumage through the 3rd ed. dex and bask in the infinate glory of 35+pts average cheaper (geared) squads in 5th ed.

[Brother-Captain Devlonir]

Because they WILL kill absolutely anything they charge.

 

This is a big, big call.

 

Even if Sang. Guard get the charge on nasties like Hive Tyrant and guard...they are going to die before they strike. That Lash Whip will sort them out.

Howling Bansees. mmm. The Banshee mask and the plethora of power weapons will take out the Sang. Guard again.

What about Harlequinns. With enough rends and the odd power weapon, the guard will have problems here too, me thinks.

What about the Deciever he is quite nasty too or a big pile of genestealers, 30 Ork Boys with a power klaw armed nob

 

My point is if they cannot strike first there are a fair few that can take them out or seriously reduce them before they strike...or after striking may still have the numbers to overwhelm them. 5 is sometimes just not enough.

 

This is why I said above, while Tactical Termies are all round bastards and Assault Termies are anti-Elite monsters, the Sang Guard is more an anti-troop or fast units hunting unit. More a scalpel vs the Assault Termie's hammer. They go through most troop choices an enemy has like a hot knife through butter, especially with a banner for 3 attacks, 4 on the charge with a reroll and a 2+ save. No troop stands a chance and single round slaughtering of these kinds of units is more common than not.

Also, they are much more mobile than Terminators, which is also very important.

 

Their wrist mounted guns are something you should not disregard as they are near equal to storm bolters in efficiency.

[Rybnick]

I'll echo what Devlonir said above, they are extremely efficient troop killers. With a banner they can easily chew through even large troop blobs, with 10 str5 ap4 bolter shots, and 20 MC power weapon swings at S5 I5 on the charge. Add the jet packs ontop of this and they are very manueverable and if you keep them in cover can easily survive quite a bit of shooting, add a priest for even better odds and another PW swing if your willing to pony up the extra 15 points.

 

The key I've found with using them in a normal army (i.e. no Dante) is to provide scarrier stuff for the enemy to shoot at. I've found they work very well with a pair of scouting Baal pred's, a drop pod Sternguard, and some good heavy support. the key is to get lots of stuff in your enemies back lines that he has to deal with and they can usually make it where you want them at full force. A lot of my opponents have writen them off based on their small squad size, lack of invuln, and desire to get rid of more immediate threats only to regret it later when they swoop in an annihilate a squad of their troops holding an objective.

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

Also just a quick aside, termies did have a 5+ invul in 3rd. edition. check page 35 of the 3rd. edition codex if you don't believe me. Then rumage through the 3rd ed. dex and bask in the infinate glory of 35+pts average cheaper (geared) squads in 5th ed.

 

Yup they did... though they didn't have the 3+ invul from Storm shields... I believe it was 4+ and only in CC.

[lorider2]

This is why I said above, while Tactical Termies are all round bastards and Assault Termies are anti-Elite monsters, the Sang Guard is more an anti-troop or fast units hunting unit. More a scalpel vs the Assault Termie's hammer.

Also, they are much more mobile than Terminators, which is also very important.

 

 

Well said. SG are essentially cavalry. They are expensive, small, fast, and excel at shocking the front rows of enemy lines. I am planning on having a whole army of them, but right now field one unit naked. I run most mech so there is plenty of cover and ability to take advantage of the nearest SP. They are usually a counter unit, bait, or to kill pesky dev squads. Drop pod, footslogging, snipers, devs, combat squad MEQ armies all should fear the unit and dedicate 200+ points to limit them. The main downside is as most everyone else is also mech these days. So without sufficient support, to be a true threat every turn, they need the fists and pistols and the cost becomes prohibitive.

[Brother_Dan'l]

Because they WILL kill absolutely anything they charge.

As has already been pointed out this statement is false. Charge a large group of Nobz on bikez and see how long you last. I'm actually thinking about adding a second Power Fist to mine just because of things like that. It's too easy to lose a single Fist. Hell I got tarpitted by a stupid Rifleman last night after my PF got killed. Most disturbing. And I've lost the whole darned unit to Nobz before. Sure there were 10 and they charged me, but I only scored a single wound before they wiped me out.

[Arkio]

dan'l do you run with the death masks? i would have thought dropping those nobs down to WS 1 would have given you a fairly decent edge. as WS 1 hits WS4 on 5's as opposed to 4's

[Rybnick]

I've yet to have a death mask pay off, granted the only on I've taken so far has been attached to Dante but it's still never worked. I did model some of my Sang Guard wearing them because I like the looks but I haven't justified the 25 points for the masks yet.

[Brother Molon Labe]

This is why I said above, while Tactical Termies are all round bastards and Assault Termies are anti-Elite monsters, the Sang Guard is more an anti-troop or fast units hunting unit. More a scalpel vs the Assault Termie's hammer. They go through most troop choices an enemy has like a hot knife through butter, especially with a banner for 3 attacks, 4 on the charge with a reroll and a 2+ save. No troop stands a chance and single round slaughtering of these kinds of units is more common than not.

Also, they are much more mobile than Terminators, which is also very important.

 

Their wrist mounted guns are something you should not disregard as they are near equal to storm bolters in efficiency.

Thank you for saying everything I have been thinking but unable to put into coherent words. I have been running 1 unit of these guys w/ PF sinice I built my 1850 BA army and would like to run 2 in 2k point games. They have been such efficient killers and if you don't want them in combat with something they don't have to be they can easily maneuver around things to get to there target and I have rarely lost these guys in combat except to MCs or a PF. I like throughing a Chappy with them and or Priest with Lighning Claw makes them stick around that much longer.

[Brother_Dan'l]

dan'l do you run with the death masks? i would have thought dropping those nobs down to WS 1 would have given you a fairly decent edge. as WS 1 hits WS4 on 5's as opposed to 4's

I don't, and it wouldn't have helped in my example anyway. The Nobz charged me. But 25 points is a bit OTT in what's already a small and expensive squad. And I'd rather put those points into a Jump Pack for a Sanguinary Priest or Librarian.

 

I have to admit I'm more enamored of what they could do then what they normally do. That and the amount of attention they draw from the enemy in terms of firepower and general reactions. ;)

[Deschenus Maximus]

First post w0ot!

 

I've been thinking of taking a squad of them with Dante, 5 infernus pistol, chapter banner, a Priest with infernus + PW + JP. Add a libby with Shield and Sword for extra ownage.

 

Expensive, yes, but would probably own pretty much anything it comes across.

[calgaryBA]

First post w0ot!

 

I've been thinking of taking a squad of them with Dante, 5 infernus pistol, chapter banner, a Priest with infernus + PW + JP. Add a libby with Shield and Sword for extra ownage.

 

Expensive, yes, but would probably own pretty much anything it comes across.

 

 

7 infernus pistols is over kill. Use the points elsewhere. 2 in a squad is good, 3 should be max, ever.

 

Holy crap, that squad comes out to 735 points and they don't even have an invulnerable save! Nothing like some plasma cannon hits, rapid fire plasma gun hits, battle cannon, basilisk, etc.... Too many points for just 8 models.

 

What would you do if a squad of 10 th/ss terminators charged you? and that's only 400-450 points. You'd only have 27 attacks, and even if 70% of them hit, that's only 19 hits, and IF 60% of those wound you only get 11 wounds, vs a 3+ invulnerable saves. You'd take down 3-4 terminators. Then they get to attack back with about 21 attacks, half hit so let's even round down to 11 hits. Next, they wound on 2+, and you just lost your entire squad leaving you with just 3 IC's vs 7 more TH/SS terminators.

 

Even if you're playing an apoc game, there's better ways to spend those points.

[Deschenus Maximus]

7 infernus pistols is over kill. Use the points elsewhere. 2 in a squad is good, 3 should be max, ever.

 

I could drop them from the priest, but 10 pts is pretty cheap for being able to hurt anything in shooting. After all, quite a few people run 4 x melta Honour Guards.

 

Holy crap, that squad comes out to 735 points and they don't even have an invulnerable save! Nothing like some plasma cannon hits, rapid fire plasma gun hits, battle cannon, basilisk, etc.... Too many points for just 8 models.

 

They don't have an invulnerable, but they do have a cover save. Won't help in CC, but against shooting attacks, they are no worse off than shooty Termies.

 

What would you do if a squad of 10 th/ss terminators charged you?

 

Then I would say that I did something wrong.

 

Even if you're playing an apoc game, there's better ways to spend those points.

 

Well, look at all you're getting for those points:

Shooting abilities that will drop any tank and will severly hurt MCs

CC attacks that will put a big dent even in horde units

Psychic defense

FNP/FC bubble

Hit and Run to avoid getting shot up in the enemy shooting phase

5+ or better cover save

Scoring unit

etc.

 

Surely this wouldn't make the cut of a tourney list, but it's not that bad.

[calgaryBA]

If you have a squad worth 735 points, I'd sure find a way to make them die, so I'd count on them getting charged at some point.

 

How about a simple 10 man DC squad with nothing more than 2 power weapons?

 

Dante would kill on avg 2 before the DC strike back. The 2 power weapon DC would take out 4 of your guys alone, then the remaining 6 would take out another 2-3 guys with armor saves and FNP. Again taking out your whole squad minus some IC's. And that squad is only 230 points....

[SamaNagol]

Yeh, Sanguinary Guard generally won't kill things which cost twice as much as them *rolls eyes*

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I also think the deathmasks tend to be overkill. Suppose you have a Priest joined to the unit and possibly even another character. You'll be hitting first most of the time with all power weapons followed up by a power fist. I reckon you'll also have a banner for the +1A. Most units receiving the charge will be decimated. While I typically run commander Dante with my Sanguinary Guard I always seem to forget to ask my opponent to roll for the deathmask. So sure it can help but it's going to be a rare occurrence so I think the points are better spent on a banner or an infernus pistol.

 

0b :huh:

[Deschenus Maximus]

If you have a squad worth 735 points, I'd sure find a way to make them die, so I'd count on them getting charged at some point.

 

Yes, probably, but while getting charged is a near certainty, it is fairly easy to avoid getting charged by Termies if you play well.

 

How about a simple 10 man DC squad with nothing more than 2 power weapons?

 

Dante would kill on avg 2 before the DC strike back. The 2 power weapon DC would take out 4 of your guys alone, then the remaining 6 would take out another 2-3 guys with armor saves and FNP. Again taking out your whole squad minus some IC's. And that squad is only 230 points....

 

Them's the breaks. The DC squad also does not score, requires at least a DP to be of any use (making the squad 265 pts, really) and unless is also equipped with jump packs, will be avoidable. And if the SG get the charge instead of the other way around, you'll have a whole lot of dead DC on your hands.

[Morollan]

Them's the breaks. The DC squad also does not score, requires at least a DP to be of any use (making the squad 265 pts, really) and unless is also equipped with jump packs, will be avoidable. And if the SG get the charge instead of the other way around, you'll have a whole lot of dead DC on your hands.

 

For the same points I can get a Chaplain plus 15 DC with 5 power weapons in a frikkin' Land Raider!

[Deschenus Maximus]

Them's the breaks. The DC squad also does not score, requires at least a DP to be of any use (making the squad 265 pts, really) and unless is also equipped with jump packs, will be avoidable. And if the SG get the charge instead of the other way around, you'll have a whole lot of dead DC on your hands.

 

For the same points I can get a Chaplain plus 15 DC with 5 power weapons in a frikkin' Land Raider!

 

It's an alternative, but it does not have the same capabilites as SG. Greater CC potential, yes, but much poorer mobility and firepower, you can't control them once they're out of the LR, and they're not scoring. Apples and oranges, basically.

[calgaryBA]

Them's the breaks. The DC squad also does not score, requires at least a DP to be of any use (making the squad 265 pts, really) and unless is also equipped with jump packs, will be avoidable. And if the SG get the charge instead of the other way around, you'll have a whole lot of dead DC on your hands.

 

For the same points I can get a Chaplain plus 15 DC with 5 power weapons in a frikkin' Land Raider!

 

It's an alternative, but it does not have the same capabilites as SG. Greater CC potential, yes, but much poorer mobility and firepower, you can't control them once they're out of the LR, and they're not scoring. Apples and oranges, basically.

 

 

Less fire power? are you forgetting the goddamn land raider, on top of the 16 bolt shots from the squad? And the Land raider can do whatever the hell it pleases after dropping off the DC. Seems better in CC, mobility and firepower.

 

Then it comes down to survivability. Your 8 guys will die fast. 15 DC plus a chaplain and a decked land raider are going to take many times over the firepower of your squad.

[Deschenus Maximus]

Less fire power? are you forgetting the goddamn land raider, on top of the 16 bolt shots from the squad? And the Land raider can do whatever the hell it pleases after dropping off the DC. Seems better in CC, mobility and firepower.

 

Depends on what you're shooting at. Against hordes, the LRC + DC is better firepower. Agaisnt MEQ and armour, I'd prefer 7 melta pistols, personnaly. And it's still less mobile; the LR will always move at 12" max, and once the DC debus, they're half as fast as the SG (excluding running). And let's not even talk about the fact that a lucky LC shot can leave your DC stranded in midfield, and subject to running around after any decoy your opponent might have at hand.

 

I'm absolutely not saying that DC + LRC is not a good alternative. However, there are some things they don't do as well as SG, plain and simple.

 

Then it comes down to survivability. Your 8 guys will die fast. 15 DC plus a chaplain and a decked land raider are going to take many times over the firepower of your squad.

 

Perhaps. Depends on what you're facing.

[Demoulius]

hmm dident examine the options yet but theyre all pretty costly, and since the squad is only 5 man they would likely die pretty quikly. add a priest for FNP and the points got up even more (added a model though...)

 

il give the list a try sometime and let you guys know how they performed

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I run my squad with Dante and a Priest. The 2+ armor save plus FNP makes them pretty much invincible to small arms fire... Plus Dante can soak a couple of wounds.

 

0b :pirate:

[BrotherMoses]

*shudder* don't read their fluff to "justify" them. Its terrible. Damn GW's new Saturday morning cartoon writing style!