the Lion and the Wolf

[Wayward]

Hey there Brothers.

I remember reading some bit of fluff about this particular moment, in wich the Lion urged Leman all the way to get to Terra as soon as posible, and Russ, on the other hand, wanted to fight free every chaos occupied world they run into. Does this particular piece of fluff exist at all or is it just a figment of my weird imagination?

Thanks all in advance for some pointers! ^_^

[FerociousBeast]

It exists, but it's been retconned a bit with the Horus Heresy novels. The Lion and Russ aren't campaigning together anymore if the novels Fallen Angels and A Thousand Sons are anything to go by.

[Tomevans]

Surely that goes against the most well known story of our two Chapters, the Lion and the Wolf. They were very much fighting together at this point, which must have been a substantial way through the Great Crusade as the story mentions our Primarch's glittering record and the jealousy of Russ. I don't think us urging the Wolves to rush to Terra fits with the fluff change that states we were sitting back and looking for the winner before choosing sides...... which in my opinion is rubbish seeing our reaction to our own marines turning Chaos: obliterating our own world and then hunting for the traitors for 10,000 years.

[Dark Dajin]

As far as I have read, the 2 HH novels (Descent of Angels and Fallen Angels) aswell as Angels of Darkness do not contradict each other as much.

 

From what I gather, the 2 HH novels on the DA are still very much a precursor to the rush to Terra. But I have no knowledge as to the events described in The Thousand Sons novel.

As for Astelan's description of the Lion laying in wait to the outcome of the Emperor/Horus fight on Terra, what better place to wait from then a neighboring system? The rush to get to Terra could be the Lion trying to position himself to be able to strike at Horus in his weakened state, if he was able to defeat the Emperor.

[HsojVvad]

As far as I have read, the 2 HH novels (Descent of Angels and Fallen Angels) aswell as Angels of Darkness do not contradict each other as much.

 

From what I gather, the 2 HH novels on the DA are still very much a precursor to the rush to Terra. But I have no knowledge as to the events described in The Thousand Sons novel.

As for Astelan's description of the Lion laying in wait to the outcome of the Emperor/Horus fight on Terra, what better place to wait from then a neighboring system? The rush to get to Terra could be the Lion trying to position himself to be able to strike at Horus in his weakened state, if he was able to defeat the Emperor.

Haven't read the book yet but from what I read on the forums, wasn't Astelan lying or what not to confuse the person who he was talking too?

[FerociousBeast]

Minor Fallen Angels spoiler alert...

 

 

 

Fallen Angels pretty clearly shows that Astelan was wrong about the Lion's loyalties.

If Gav Thorpe were dead, he'd be rolling in his grave at Mike Lee's treatment of his Angels of Darkness book, but I personally couldn't be happier.

[The Shadow Guard]

Actually that part hasn't been quite retconned yet.

 

In the old fluff the wolves did devastate Prospero and give the one eyed primarch a good thumping.

 

In the old fluff it also describes the Great Wolf and the Lion campaigning together and learning from various worlds about an inter legionary war. They travelled towards terra with Russ wanting to help various worlds and Jonson fretting about the delay. Finally they killed a tyrant named Masashi whoo commanded the Shield Worlds. As they killed him they learned from the Seeing Eye crystal the truth of the Horus heresy and then determined to travel to terra.

 

I spent a lot of time and effort in the days of the second and thrid editions to try and fit these two events in a time line, not realising until very late that the horus heresy had in fact taken place over many years....I think seven years is the current Black Library estimate?

 

Subsequently according to the "Visons" series of four BL books the spacewolves were attacked by one of the traitor legion fleets (word bearers? Alpha legion?) and Russ led them away from the White Scars fleet to allow the White Scars to head to Terra.

 

So in the current fluff as it develops, the Wolves could still meet up and campaign together with the Dark Angels.... would be interesting to see how things develop. So in short I don't think the current fluff terribly contradicts the old stuff...still got a lot of gaps to fill and a lot of time between start and end points for the fluff to remains within the old setting....

 

FerociousBeast

Fallen Angels pretty clearly shows that Astelan was wrong about the Lion's loyalties.

If Gav Thorpe were dead, he'd be rolling in his grave at Mike Lee's treatment of his Angels of Darkness book, but I personally couldn't be happier.

I don't quite follow. Are you suggesting that gav Thorpes novel was at odds with Mike Lee's content?

[brennus]

Actually, I think

Fallen Angels supports Astelan's point of view

. Remember that communication with anyone was spotty at best -

fragments of the Lion's activities would be known, but certainly not his motives or his long term objectives. So, Astellan's beliefs are founded, given the incomplete information at his disposal.

[FerociousBeast]

I don't quite follow. Are you suggesting that gav Thorpes novel was at odds with Mike Lee's content?

I think it's pretty clear that Gav Thorpe was trying to recast the Lion as a more neutral character in the Heresy. I also think that Thorpe wanted us to see Astelan as someone with some very significant challenges to the DA orthodoxy. Fallen Angels, however, pretty much makes Astelan out to be, if not exactly a fool, definitely wrong-headed. It also shows that many of Astelan's allegations are simply wrong. There's no doubt at the end of Fallen Angels about the Lion's loyalties, and Astelan's accusation that the Lion banished him to Caliban because he wasn't a Calibanite becomes quite peculiar since most of the other banished Dark Angels in Fallen Angels are Calibanites.

 

I don't think Lee or Thorpe consulted together when they were writing their book and short story, respectively. Thorpe continued with his theme in Call of the Lion, and Lee turned all of that stuff on its head and showed Astelan to be simply in error.

 

Actually that part hasn't been quite retconned yet.

BL could still bring the two primarchs together... and I hope they do! But a lot of the details running up to the voyage back to Terra have been changed. For example, the fact that the Lion is actually the first Primarch to strike back to Horus is at odds with any narrative stating that the Lion and Russ were confused about what was going on with the Legions.

[HsojVvad]

I haven't read any BL books yet, but I thought BL isn't official. So why do people get all caught up in it? Am I missing something? I guess this is why I don't pick it up since it has no offical basis to the 40K game.

[Wayward]

I haven't read any BL books yet, but I thought BL isn't official. So why do people get all caught up in it? Am I missing something? I guess this is why I don't pick it up since it has no offical basis to the 40K game.

 

Thats right, as far as I know, the fluffin codices/rulebooks has its own timeline, and BL stuff recreates warhammer universes slightly different (they are very nice reads canon or not!).

 

All I needed to know was about that little piece of fluff, but the ongoing discussion is a nice read, so keep it up and thanks all!

[Chaplain Lucifer]

I haven't read any BL books yet, but I thought BL isn't official. So why do people get all caught up in it? Am I missing something? I guess this is why I don't pick it up since it has no offical basis to the 40K game.

This has been clarified recently as in BL fluff is official, but with a caveat: their fluff is biased from the storyteller's point of view. So Basically you have codex and GW sources if you want what's written in stone so to speak and BL fluff to add salt and pepper and fill in the gaps.

Upon any contradictions then what's in codex is what takes precedence.

[Hashshashin]

I haven't read any BL books yet, but I thought BL isn't official. So why do people get all caught up in it? Am I missing something? I guess this is why I don't pick it up since it has no offical basis to the 40K game.

 

 

Their not official but they super fun to read. I resisted for a long time but once I buckled I've been cruising through the whole series, you should check it. It's not like they are fine literary works, but they are basically 'Space Marine Action Porn for Boys '

 

 

I don't see why the Primarchs couldn't do all of those things, with the mysteries of the warp these guys can shoot all over the galaxy, and even the Warp Storm that happens throughout many of the HH novels they could even displace Russ or the Lion or whatever they need to do to shoehorn the fluff together.

[HsojVvad]

I bought the first HH book, can't get into it yet, so I put it down. Now I feel like reading it, and now I can't find it. I just saw it a few days ago, but where? Hopefully soon I will find it.

 

I read that you don't have to read them all in order, so if I wanted to read the 2 DA books I can without reading the rest? What are the names of the books again?

[Darmor]

I bought the first HH book, can't get into it yet, so I put it down. Now I feel like reading it, and now I can't find it. I just saw it a few days ago, but where? Hopefully soon I will find it.

 

I read that you don't have to read them all in order, so if I wanted to read the 2 DA books I can without reading the rest? What are the names of the books again?

DA related books are Descent of Angels and Fallen Angels.

[Arioch]

I think the fluff has been retconned (unfortunatly). I remember reading "Collected visions" and the Dark Angels and the Spacewolfs seems to have been operating seperatly, although the information was very sparse. But it did mention something about the Spacewolf getting help from someone unexpected (from their point of view). Maybe the DA come to their aid against the Alphalegion?

[Lord_Hail]

Remember the lion secured the seige guns and then hands them over to Perturabo, and says hey after all the crap hits the fan vote for me for warmaster. And didn't see the hatred in Perturabo's eyes for him. All the Primachs thought the heresy would be a quick clean affir i think. And he then says hey i'm off to do my thing Perturabo hey see that Horus don't get these thanks bro.

For those that have not read the book fallen angels do, for those who won't highlight for an opinion, for those that have you know what i'm saying.

[HiveFleetEzekial]

Remember the lion secured the seige guns and then hands them over to Perturabo, and says hey after all the crap hits the fan vote for me for warmaster. And didn't see the hatred in Perturabo's eyes for him. All the Primachs thought the heresy would be a quick clean affir i think. And he then says hey i'm off to do my thing Perturabo hey see that Horus don't get these thanks bro.

For those that have not read the book fallen angels do, for those who won't highlight for an opinion, for those that have you know what i'm saying.

 

What? ..Where's your 'opinion'? All you're doing is giving a summary of the events.

 

 

They're not official but they super fun to read.

 

The Horus Heresy books are just as official as anything else GW puts out. Black Library is one of their mini/side companies. Not only that, anything GW give their 'stamp of approval' (read: Logo) on, is just as official. Some people just simply choose to not believe that they're official fluff.