Blood angels before sanguinius?

[jeremy1391]

While many of the primarchs have "quirks" I for one don't believe in the whole "chaos did it " theory

but it is more a plot device.

U can't have blood angels without the angel primarch!

 

And I'm curious as to what chapters were already named

so let's see

dusk raiders

war hounds

imperial fists (assumption)

dark angels

Luna wolves (I recall reading the legions original monastary was on earths moon "Luna")

thousand sons (were all that was left after the flesh change)

 

now there are legions who's names are more in line with their primarch or the legions new home world

eg

white scars: after the white scar desert of mundus planus

salamanders: after the ferocious reptiles of nocturne

space wolves: fenris wolves

 

then there are the legions named after traits of their primarch

eg

iron hands

blood angels

night lords

alpha legion

 

So where do the rest fall you reckon?

[mysteriousmaskedmystery]

there has never been anything i've read that stated that the imperial fists were named that prior to finding dorn, same for the dark angels and the luna wolves. just because they changed their name several times, doesn't mean they had one before horus, and don't forget he was the first one found. according to the new TS book, i believe the flesh change didn't completely manifest until after magnus was found, so that name was post-primarch as well.

 

when the emperor found a primach, he gave them a legion. he didn't show up empty handed. when the first primarchs were found the other legions felt the lack of a leader more accutely, the TS book mentions this.

[Brother Nathan]

I dont nessisarily believe that sanguiniuses wings were compleately caused by chaos, they too fluffy ;) Andi know what the dex says but i can be ignorant of that ^_^ So in all likelyhood the were blood something before that then too. And why are the dark angels Angels? Oh and yea te flaw was caused by sanguiniuses deat and the stupid battle with that khorn deamon also did something tooo.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Our primarch's wings are a mark of evolution, not a mark of Chaos.

 

0b ;)

[BrotherMoses]

Actually, I agree with what was said earlier: both bits of fluff are correct. If you look at the Flight of the Eisenstein (I believe thats the book dealing with Garro and the Death Guard) there are places in there where they talk about how some Death Guard came from Terra, but many now came from the Death Guard planet. So I believe the 'usual practice' the Emperor used was this:

 

1. Primarchs cast into the warp

2. Genetic material used to make legions from Terran populous. Other peoples could have also been used, but they would have had to be longstanding Imperial allies of the Segmentum Solar

3. Primarchs are found. Legion begins recruiting from Primarch's "home planet".

 

And there you have it.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

woe is me, for to be completely misunderstood... The ba's were created at angel falls when the emperor took genetic material from sang and implanted it into baal natives. At no point does it say the emp gave sang an existing legion as it has with other primarchs... It is possible that the ba's existed prior to sang being found again, but by no means certain. Reading the codex entry, it is probably more likely that there were no ba's until the meeting on baal...

that's when the baalites began being recruited as battle brothers as they currently are instead of terrans.

[Rider-75]

woe is me, for to be completely misunderstood... The ba's were created at angel falls when the emperor took genetic material from sang and implanted it into baal natives. At no point does it say the emp gave sang an existing legion as it has with other primarchs... It is possible that the ba's existed prior to sang being found again, but by no means certain. Reading the codex entry, it is probably more likely that there were no ba's until the meeting on baal...

that's when the baalites began being recruited as battle brothers as they currently are instead of terrans.

 

now that's what i had previously thought, as it was for all the other legions.

 

but if you read my post in reference to the IA article on the Blood Angels it becomes..... awkward. it quite clearly states that the members of the Blood were used to create the legion:

 

"Imperial history recognises that the Emperor subsequently selected the best of Sanguinius' warriors and took them up into his Great Crusade, raising them up into a full Legion of Space Marines. They were implanted with the very core of the Primarch's physical being; his pure and precious geneseed. Under such a blessing no man could fail in his duty and the Blood Angels added their might to those already fighting in the Emperor's crusade"

 

two things from that one quote suggest Leonides was right in his interpretation that the legion didn't exist prior to the discover of sanguinius.

 

1) the fact that the best warriors were raised into a FULL LEGION - pretty conclusive that they weren't ADDED to an existing legion.

2) It also talks about the Blood Angels THEN being added to the crusade, not joining the members of their legion already in the crusade.

 

in addition, the complete article never once mentions sanguinius being given or reunited with a legion.

[lolita23q]

the pure bloods , or only the blood

 

after sanguinius they he renamnd them Blood angels

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

woe is me, for to be completely misunderstood... The ba's were created at angel falls when the emperor took genetic material from sang and implanted it into baal natives. At no point does it say the emp gave sang an existing legion as it has with other primarchs... It is possible that the ba's existed prior to sang being found again, but by no means certain. Reading the codex entry, it is probably more likely that there were no ba's until the meeting on baal...

that's when the baalites began being recruited as battle brothers as they currently are instead of terrans.

 

now that's what i had previously thought, as it was for all the other legions.

 

but if you read my post in reference to the IA article on the Blood Angels it becomes..... awkward. it quite clearly states that the members of the Blood were used to create the legion:

 

"Imperial history recognises that the Emperor subsequently selected the best of Sanguinius' warriors and took them up into his Great Crusade, raising them up into a full Legion of Space Marines. They were implanted with the very core of the Primarch's physical being; his pure and precious geneseed. Under such a blessing no man could fail in his duty and the Blood Angels added their might to those already fighting in the Emperor's crusade"

 

two things from that one quote suggest Leonides was right in his interpretation that the legion didn't exist prior to the discover of sanguinius.

 

1) the fact that the best warriors were raised into a FULL LEGION - pretty conclusive that they weren't ADDED to an existing legion.

2) It also talks about the Blood Angels THEN being added to the crusade, not joining the members of their legion already in the crusade.

 

in addition, the complete article never once mentions sanguinius being given or reunited with a legion.

does it specifically mention the other primarchs being given their legions? if not then that doesn't mean anything.

 

1. no it just says full legion, which would indicate there was an incomplete legion before, otherwise it would say something about creating the legion

2. before sanguinius they weren't the blood angels, they were the ninth legion.

 

the full legion thing doesn't mean anything besides the size of the legion was made larger in one way or another, otherwise they would have clearly stated that the legion was CREATED on baal using only it's inhabitants.

[Rider-75]

raising a legion.

 

that's the important bit.

 

to raise a legion is to create a legion.

 

otherwise it would say they were added to the IX legion, or used to reinforce the IX legion, or expand the IX legion, etc.

 

it specifically says RAISING them into a full legion.

 

and to be fair off the top of my head i can't say which legions were presented to their primarchs, but the following are definite, from their IA articles:

dark angels

emperor's children

iron warriors

white scars

space wolves

imperial fists

night lords

iron hands

world eaters/warhounds

ultramarines

death guard/dusk raiders

thousand sons

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

raising a legion.

 

that's the important bit.

 

to raise a legion is to create a legion.

 

otherwise it would say they were added to the IX legion, or used to reinforce the IX legion, or expand the IX legion, etc.

 

it specifically says RAISING them into a full legion.

 

and to be fair off the top of my head i can't say which legions were presented to their primarchs, but the following are definite, from their IA articles:

dark angels

emperor's children

iron warriors

white scars

space wolves

imperial fists

night lords

iron hands

world eaters/warhounds

ultramarines

death guard/dusk raiders

thousand sons

raise does NOT mean create. it means to bring up. another way to say 'rising them into a full legion' would be 'bring up to a full legion'

the key word here is FULL. it implies the legion was some how incomplete (and it was) but what we need to know is what constituted a 'complete' legion at the time. the simple fact that sanguinius took command of the ninth legion and named them could be the legion's completion. (though i'm sure much more would have happened.)

 

pg6 of the new codex under the 'great crusade' section, it reinforces the idea that the blood angels were (along with ALL) legions were around from the get go, and not created after the primarch was found.

 

Page 6 Paragraph 2 'The Great Crusade'

"It was during the Great Crusade that the Primarchs were reunited with the Emperor, taking up their rightful places as the masters of the Space Marine Legions."

 

i don't think it gets more straight forward than that. during the crusade the primarchs were found once they were found either their legion was brought to them or they went to their legion and began leading that legion. it doesn't say anything about the blood angel legion (the 9th legion) being created during the crusade or after sanguinius was found.

[Cain Tiberius Kondrad]

The Begings of the Imperium as told by B&C.

 

The Emperor of mankind creates 20 genetically enhanced super human Primarchs.

The forces of Chaos conspire great evils and steel the PrimarchS while still in their infancy.

"Oh shooks" says the Emperor who twidles his thumbs for the next few decades / centuries.

Warp storm clears and the Emperor decides to launch a mighty crusade to reunite humanity and find his lost sons.

So he sets of on his OWN, and after a while finds his first lost son.

"OH SHOOT!" the Emperor exclaims, "I forgot to bring you anything :P "

"Thats ok Dad" says Horus, "What I'd really like is for you to make my friends almost as powerful as me."

So the Emperor spends the next few years turning Horus' mates into a huge legion of Space Marines.

Horus is so happy he joins his father on his little crusade.

Slowly they find each of the lost Primarchs.

Not wantting to appear to favour one son over another He pauses his crusade to create more legions for them.

And they lived happily ever after.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

quick question, are the imperial armour books GW or FW published?

[Cain Tiberius Kondrad]

Good question.. I'd be tempted to say FW as they are primarily there to sell and explain FW stuff. But they do sell them in GW's.

IA is also an acronym for Index Astartes though. Not sure if that's what you're refering to. If so, the Index Astartes books definately are GW.

 

CTK

[Rider-75]

the IA books i referred to were the Index Astartes books. GW published.

[AustonT]

The Fluff has always been pretty straight forward: after the primarchs disappeared Big E created the legions and began to reunite humanity and kill off those nasty xenos. I don't get where the confusion comes from.

[Leonaides]

but in the case of the ba's, there is a reasonable possibility that the legion didn't exist until the emperor found sang and did the surgery on baal natives... Which means that maybe not all of the other legions came from terra. As a brief aside- anyone with legion able to check if any of the alpha legion were terrans? Or any mention of terran alpha marines?

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

but in the case of the ba's, there is a reasonable possibility that the legion didn't exist until the emperor found sang and did the surgery on baal natives... Which means that maybe not all of the other legions came from terra. As a brief aside- anyone with legion able to check if any of the alpha legion were terrans? Or any mention of terran alpha marines?

until recently fluff had strongly implied if not directly said that all legions were around before they were led by their primarchs. honestly i've never heard this bit about them being created after sanguinius was found until i saw this thread. the numbering of the legions would also imply that's the order the primarchs were found in and the legions thus created. it all seems to be a bit of...rubbish to me. (look at me, i'm an englishman :P )

[Rider-75]

but legion number is not discvery number.

 

horus was the first found primarch - dark angels first legion.

[Brother Mojonir]

the pure bloods , or only the blood

 

after sanguinius they he renamnd them Blood angels

 

lolita23q whats your source for this ? I hate to play devils advocate but this rings a bell deep in my subconscious.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

but legion number is not discvery number.

 

horus was the first found primarch - dark angels first legion.

exactly. that would point to some weird things if the legion wasn't created from the very get go.

 

if they were created when sanguinius was found

1. why even give them a legion number since sanguinius was just going to name them any way?

2. why would that number be like right in the middle?

 

other wise it would mean that legion number equates to primarch discovery and thus legion creation, which we all know for a fact is not true.

 

or all the legions were created in an order, and then 'named' the corresponding number and then given a proper name once the primarch has taken command of them.

[Rider-75]

i think all things considered, the writer of the IA blood angels article made a balls up of his use of english and left a big hole open for interpretation.

 

i doubt it was meant, but the fact that it is there causes the confusion.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

i think all things considered, the writer of the IA blood angels article made a balls up of his use of english and left a big hole open for interpretation.

 

i doubt it was meant, but the fact that it is there causes the confusion.

GW needs better proof readers and editors then, people who are already well versed in canonized fluff.

[bloodancient]

So basically thay should post it here and see if anyone has any thing to change or errata and ofter it's said and done they could print. Not a bad idea. But the holes in the story let you really wonder and helps to sell the books and story. It also keeps us busy reading this. Now my 2 cents Legion IX started, Crusade starts, finds Prime(ALL HAIL SANG). And on to cleanse the galaxy they go till we lost him(ALL HAIL SANG).

[bloodancient]

My bad just reread codex entry. Pg11 top paragraph like halfway down "the best of the warriors he offerd to raise up into Space Marines. the others where to be honourably left behind to defend mankinds birthright on Baal secundus. The Emperor performed the complex operation to extract Sanguinius' genetic codes and he implanted them into the warriors of the BLOOD ANGELS legion. Thus where the Blood Angels and their Primarch made whole." It says right there in the Dex that they were already called the Blood Angels legion.