Blood angels before sanguinius?

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

My bad just reread codex entry. Pg11 top paragraph like halfway down "the best of the warriors he offerd to raise up into Space Marines. the others where to be honourably left behind to defend mankinds birthright on Baal secundus. The Emperor performed the complex operation to extract Sanguinius' genetic codes and he implanted them into the warriors of the BLOOD ANGELS legion. Thus where the Blood Angels and their Primarch made whole." It says right there in the Dex that they were already called the Blood Angels legion.

no, they weren't the blood angels until after sanguinius took command, because the blood part comes from the name of the tribe that took him in as a baby, the Blood Tribe, and angels is reference to his angelic form, that's long established fluff, all that means is that sanguinius renamed the chapter, and that's the name it is referred to as from the day the emperor found him on. (remember, this history is 10,000 years old, it wouldn't make sense to think of thing's like "ok, the emperor made the first baalite spaace marines on wensday, sanguinius renamed the legion the blood angels thursday." i strict time line for when things happened like that is unrealistic, they may have been the IX legion for a decade before sanguinius actually renamed them, but once the emperor found him, the records just refer to the legion as the blood angels from that point on. especially when you think about how long it takes for the full transformation into a space marine takes.)

[Leonaides]

But that would meant that the original BA marines who were made before Sang was found didnt have his geneseed in them... Which is really............. hinkey!

 

Still prefer the original 2nd ed wording which at least made sense.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

But that would meant that the original BA marines who were made before Sang was found didnt have his geneseed in them... Which is really............. hinkey!

 

Still prefer the original 2nd ed wording which at least made sense.

um yes they did. the emperor created the original legions using the geneseed of the primarchs, thats how come the legions already had similarities to the primarchs which is how the emperor decided which legion went to which primarch.

 

you guys are complicating this way to much. here's how it has always been written.

 

1. the emperor created the primarchs

2. the primarchs were scattered and lost

3. the emperor created the legions I-XX using the geneseed of each of the twenty primarchs

4. the emperor crusaded using his legions

5. the emperor found the primarchs and gave them control of their corresponding legion

6. new recruits from the primarchs' "home" worlds were drafted and turned to marines.

7. crusade continued with primarchs leading their legions.

[mysteriousmaskedmystery]

its in horus rising, iirc, they talk about how things were before the primarchs don't they? and its in TS, they talk about the emptiness they feel as the other legions find their primarchs and they still haven't found theirs.

 

seriously, i thought this had been sorted out, how is it at 3 pages?

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

its in horus rising, iirc, they talk about how things were before the primarchs don't they? and its in TS, they talk about the emptiness they feel as the other legions find their primarchs and they still haven't found theirs.

 

seriously, i thought this had been sorted out, how is it at 3 pages?

lmao, i know right? it was all written pretty clearly since the get go...

[Leonaides]

Well, if you choose to use this piece of text to say that there was a BA legion before Sanguinius was found by the emperor "The Emperor performed the complex operation to extract Sanguinius' genetic codes and he implanted them into the warriors of the BLOOD ANGELS legion.", then the simple logical problem is how do you explain either:

1) The BA's who existed prior to the rediscovery of Sang being reimplanted with his Geneseed.

or

2) The BA's who existed prior to the rediscovery of Sang not having any geneseed in them (and thus not actually being Space Marines).

 

For myself, neither of these apear to be in any way logical.

 

The best way I can reconcile the fluff I have read is this sequence:

1) Emperor creates primarchs

2) Primarchs are stolen/scattered thru the warp

3) Emperor beings creating marines using the genetic templates from the Primarchs

4) The emperor sets out from Terra with the first few legions, leaving his scientists to get on with brewing up the next few legions.

5) The emperor discovers Primarchs along the way. If that primarch's respective legion already exists, it is given to him to lead, if that legion does not yet exist it is created.

 

In tha case of the BA's, there didnt happen to be a pre-existing BA legion at the time when Sang was found. The Emperor came to Baal, picked up Sang, saw that the true humans left on Baal (the Tribes of Pure Blood, or simply The Blood - not necessarily the particular tribe that Sang was found by, but the generic name for all the human tribes) and offered to make the best of them into a Legion for Sang. Thus the statement that the emperor himself oversaw the creation of the legion has relevance (which it wouldnt if he directly oversaw the creation of all the legions).

 

Feel free to disagree, but please do it in a logical maner, rather than simply saying its a load of bunk. I'm not saying that I must be right and you must be wrong, but saying that its not as cut and dried as you seem to be saying.

[Brother Nathan]

I wouldnt subscribe to there being primarchs without legions before the emperor found them. that would have instantly caused controversy and distrust between the sons and the emperor. and to go backto terra to get legions and back would have wasted alot of time. I was thinking we really dont know how close the emperor and sang were phsycically. We know that they greated each other as if they had been talking for years etc so if they did the emperor could have known everything, the wings and the blood etc. would add more interesting potential dynamics to their story. ie sangknowing hes going to die to horus and bein linked to emperors mind has to hide it fro the emp to protect the emp from stopping him etc...

[Leonaides]

or maybe the emperor knew that he wouldn't need to make a legion for sang. Maybe he knew that he could make one from the baalite natives...

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

then please explain the numbering order of the legions.

 

horus was the first primarch discovered, yet his legion's number is towards the end iirc

 

again, this entire discussion is because some one writing something didn't have a strong background in previous fluff.

 

go back and read all of the older histories of the blood angels and the space marines and you will see that the fluff for at least 10+ years has been legions created, crusade started, primarchs found, legions give to corresponding primarch.

[Son of Sanguin]

Just read Codex:BA again it is ALL explained in there.

 

1. Primarchs made,

2. Primarchs Lost,

3. Legions created on terra using gene-stock that was still kept on the system.

4. crusade!!!

5. primarchs found and given control of their respective legion

 

every primarch who was given a legion and family or a band of warriors they added to the legion but the legions WERE created before the primarchs were found. It is long standing fluff and every book supports this if you read the WHOLE thing not just random quotes.

 

@ mysterious

I know what you mean. Is it so hard to understand the books

[Leonaides]

And round about point 3 is where it all goes to pot... Where does it say that teh Emperor leaves Terra with all the legions? I'm pretty sure that there was some fluff suggesting that he seemed to order the creation of new legions just before a new primarch was found, suggesting that he knew more than he was letting on... Need to find my IA's in old WD's this eveing then I'll be back.

[Son of Sanguin]

The codex doesn't say specifically, and I need to check the old fluff i have at my parents but the quote from the codex says, ''The Emperor had been questing across the galaxy in search of hi lost children and incredible psychic powers led him to Baal. His ship landed at the Conclave of the Blood, and he walked staight to Sanginius' abode.' Page 10, Paragraph 11

 

This gives the impression he could have know that it was Sanginius he would find but it could be either way. it has always been the thought that her had all if not most of the legions with him. as was pointed out before finding most of the primarchs in a different order to the creation of the legions lends to the idea of the the legions being created first then the primarchs being found. it could be argued to the end of the earth if im honest

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

And round about point 3 is where it all goes to pot... Where does it say that teh Emperor leaves Terra with all the legions? I'm pretty sure that there was some fluff suggesting that he seemed to order the creation of new legions just before a new primarch was found, suggesting that he knew more than he was letting on... Need to find my IA's in old WD's this eveing then I'll be back.

would you please list a reference? book, and page number preferably a paragraph number as well.

 

i've listed references for my side, and so far the only 'evidence' for the other side is some indefinite word choice of one or two recent books...that against 10+ yrs of fluff stating the opposite....hmmm.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

only if matt ward wrote the second ed codex angels of death. So no...

page number please i've read that 'dex and saw nothing about a late creation of the legion in it.

[Leonaides]

But equally nothing in there that says anything about hiim being given a pre-existing legion either.

 

Having problems finding the Alpha Legion IA cos all my old WD's have been moved but from the B&C's own legion intel file:

"The Alpha Legion was the youngest and in some way the least experienced of the Legions, a fact which drove its Marines to challenge themselves at every opportunity in order to prove themselves in the eyes of their elder brethren in other Legions."

If the Alpha Legion was the youngest and least experienced, then they cant have all been in existence when the Emperor began the great crusade. Agree or diagree with this point? If you agree that this is correct, then we have established that not every legion existed prior to the Emperor leaving Terra. Which seems to be a recurring justification for saying that Sang must have been given control of a pre-existing legion. So thats one point that is at least reasonably doubtful. Again, I'm not saying that I must be right, but trying to establish precedent that its not as black and white as claimed.

 

Then this quote:

"The Emperor performed the complex operation to extract Sanguinius' genetic codes and he implanted them into the warriors of the BLOOD ANGELS LEGION."

Which, as I've already pointed out doesnt work. The Emperor took the genetic info from Sang and then implanted it into the warriors of the Blood Angel Legion. So, the warriors of the Blood Angel legion can not have had any implants before Sang was found, or this would be doubling it up. Which doesnt work. Agree or disagree? If you agree with this then we have established that the Blood Angel Legion wasn tcreated till the Emperor took geneseed from Sang's body, and implanted it into recruits. As we know that he'd just looked at the Tribes of Pure Blood, and decided that they would make a suitable recruiting base, it seems reasonable that they were the ones implanted.

 

Numbers for the Legions being different than the order the primarchs were found in? Search me, but I think the most usual explanation is that the legions were given the number from their respective primachs tanks.

 

would you please list a reference? book, and page number preferably a paragraph number as well.

I'd love to reference something that I dont think has ever been written, but thats rather difficult, as I'm sure you appreciate. If and/or when I get a helpful WD number from the chaos boards, I'll try and give you a better reference for the Alpha legion stuff.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

But equally nothing in there that says anything about hiim being given a pre-existing legion either.

 

Having problems finding the Alpha Legion IA cos all my old WD's have been moved but from the B&C's own legion intel file:

"The Alpha Legion was the youngest and in some way the least experienced of the Legions, a fact which drove its Marines to challenge themselves at every opportunity in order to prove themselves in the eyes of their elder brethren in other Legions."

If the Alpha Legion was the youngest and least experienced, then they cant have all been in existence when the Emperor began the great crusade. Agree or diagree with this point? If you agree that this is correct, then we have established that not every legion existed prior to the Emperor leaving Terra. Which seems to be a recurring justification for saying that Sang must have been given control of a pre-existing legion. So thats one point that is at least reasonably doubtful. Again, I'm not saying that I must be right, but trying to establish precedent that its not as black and white as claimed.

 

Then this quote:

"The Emperor performed the complex operation to extract Sanguinius' genetic codes and he implanted them into the warriors of the BLOOD ANGELS LEGION."

Which, as I've already pointed out doesnt work. The Emperor took the genetic info from Sang and then implanted it into the warriors of the Blood Angel Legion. So, the warriors of the Blood Angel legion can not have had any implants before Sang was found, or this would be doubling it up. Which doesnt work. Agree or disagree? If you agree with this then we have established that the Blood Angel Legion wasn tcreated till the Emperor took geneseed from Sang's body, and implanted it into recruits. As we know that he'd just looked at the Tribes of Pure Blood, and decided that they would make a suitable recruiting base, it seems reasonable that they were the ones implanted.

 

Numbers for the Legions being different than the order the primarchs were found in? Search me, but I think the most usual explanation is that the legions were given the number from their respective primachs tanks.

 

would you please list a reference? book, and page number preferably a paragraph number as well.

I'd love to reference something that I dont think has ever been written, but thats rather difficult, as I'm sure you appreciate. If and/or when I get a helpful WD number from the chaos boards, I'll try and give you a better reference for the Alpha legion stuff.

what number of legion was the alpha legion? off the top of my head i don't know. it they're the 20th legion, then they are the youngest. or it could have something to do with the marines themselves being younger.

and yes he did implant the people of the Blood after finding sanguinius on Baal, but he had originally implanted terrans with the proper organs before that.

 

ok, so lets go with it like you say.

 

emperor arrives on Baal, and finds Sanguinius. he then decides the Baalites are perfect candidates for implantation and turning into marines. in the years it takes for a marine to 'mature' what is sanguinius doing in the mean time? just chilling sitting on the lap of the emperor listening to stories of how he was created, and the crusade?

[Rider-75]

the Alphas are indeed Legion XX

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

the Alphas are indeed Legion XX

well then there you go, they're the youngest because they were the last to be created.

[Leonaides]

the point being that there is enough of an age gap for them to feel inferior to the other legions and consider themselves the newb's... Still evidence that not all the legions were created at the same time. And not too be too rude- but have you read codex ba? It takes 1 year to make a blood angel marine... The whole sarcophagus thing... I'd imagine sang might just have spent some time learning about advanced weaponry, tactics and the forces under his control, maybe even wanting to learn about the wider galaxy, before starting direct combat operations.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

the point being that there is enough of an age gap for them to feel inferior to the other legions and consider themselves the newb's... Still evidence that not all the legions were created at the same time. And not too be too rude- but have you read codex ba? It takes 1 year to make a blood angel marine... The whole sarcophagus thing... I'd imagine sang might just have spent some time learning about advanced weaponry, tactics and the forces under his control, maybe even wanting to learn about the wider galaxy, before starting direct combat operations.

and they come out and then they need to be thoroughly trained with their armour all the weapons, and in tactics and how to use their new abilities to it's greatest advantage, which would take another year, if not longer. how ever, if there are already some terran BA then the new Baalites would just join the scout company and begin their training in the carapace armour and they'd learn how to be an astartes from astartes.

[Leonaides]

Or how abot this bit from the BA IA article (as printed in WD 261):

 

"They were implanted with the very core of the Primarchs physical being; his pure and precious geneseed. Under such a blessing no man could fail in his duty, and the Blood Angels added their might to those already fighting in the Emperors Crusade." (italics mine) This could mean that the BA's added the might of the Baalite initiates into the ranks of the BA's already fighting in the crusades, but it could equallly mean the Blood Angels as a legion added their collective might to the other legions and armies fighting in the crusade.

 

Or even

"So it was that, under Baal's blistering sun, the Blood Angels were born." To me, this does kind of sound like there were no BA's until the chapter was 'born', and if it was 'born' on Baal, then it must have been 'born' after Sang was found. Yes or no?

 

and they come out and then they need to be thoroughly trained with their armour all the weapons, and in tactics and how to use their new abilities to it's greatest advantage, which would take another year, if not longer. how ever, if there are already some terran BA then the new Baalites would just join the scout company and begin their training in the carapace armour and they'd learn how to be an astartes from astartes.

But not as long as the time it takes other legions to produce a fully implanted marine. I'm sure that if there were already terran BA's then the Baalites would have just joined the scout companies, but that is not in question here. the question is must there have been terran BA's before Sanguinius was found? Can you find anywhere that states that there are Terran BA's?

 

 

So do you conceed that not all the legions existed when the Crusade began then?

[lolita23q]

the pure bloods , or only the blood

 

after sanguinius they he renamnd them Blood angels

 

lolita23q whats your source for this ? I hate to play devils advocate but this rings a bell deep in my subconscious.

 

 

the blood angel codex , the newest

[BrotherMoses]

The new codex fluff kind of sucks. I just ignore it.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Or how abot this bit from the BA IA article (as printed in WD 261):

 

"They were implanted with the very core of the Primarchs physical being; his pure and precious geneseed. Under such a blessing no man could fail in his duty, and the Blood Angels added their might to those already fighting in the Emperors Crusade." (italics mine) This could mean that the BA's added the might of the Baalite initiates into the ranks of the BA's already fighting in the crusades, but it could equallly mean the Blood Angels as a legion added their collective might to the other legions and armies fighting in the crusade.

 

Or even

"So it was that, under Baal's blistering sun, the Blood Angels were born." To me, this does kind of sound like there were no BA's until the chapter was 'born', and if it was 'born' on Baal, then it must have been 'born' after Sang was found. Yes or no?

 

and they come out and then they need to be thoroughly trained with their armour all the weapons, and in tactics and how to use their new abilities to it's greatest advantage, which would take another year, if not longer. how ever, if there are already some terran BA then the new Baalites would just join the scout company and begin their training in the carapace armour and they'd learn how to be an astartes from astartes.

But not as long as the time it takes other legions to produce a fully implanted marine. I'm sure that if there were already terran BA's then the Baalites would have just joined the scout companies, but that is not in question here. the question is must there have been terran BA's before Sanguinius was found? Can you find anywhere that states that there are Terran BA's?

 

 

So do you conceed that not all the legions existed when the Crusade began then?

again, the fact that each legion has two names (or more) muddies the interpretations some. there were NO blood angels before sanguinius, but there WAS a 9th legion. that's why this is such a problem. does the terran 9th legion count as the blood angels, or are they only being counted as the blood angels when the Baalites where inducted.

 

up until this topic i have never heard of or seen any one who thought the 9th/blood angel legion didn't exist at all until sanguinius was found.

 

i have not seen anything solid enough to push aside the old fluff. old fluff has always stated or at the very least strongly implied that all legions were present for the beginning of the crusade. (how ever, which legions were used in the unification wars it does not state, so that could explain the alpha legion's inferiority complex. many of the other legions may have been involved in the unification wars but they weren't around at the time.)

[Leonaides]

well, the old fluff that i remember says that all 20 legions and their primarchs all took part in the great crusade. I dont remember ever reading that they were all there for the very start of the crusade. Do you have a source for every legion being present at the start? Given that this would contradict the alpha legion fluff as well, you'll permit me to doubt it i'm sure.