Blood angels before sanguinius?

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Well Leonaides, I guess your english is a bit better than mine so you problably have an advantage over me in the whole interpretation of said texts. :D

I'd say it's still open enough to be both ways. Since we are having a discussion about it, it's hard to say what's right and what's wrong. You read into it what you already think you know. We have to wait for BL to (write) release our Heresy book before we know for sure.

oh dear god i hope they never do. who wants to put money on james swallow doing our heresy book since he 'has experience' with the blood angels?

[Brother Nathan]

Ok Before anyone gets too hot under te collar i think we can asume that for now gw has left it that it can be interpreted either way and that futher discussions on that now seem pointless til we get further info that dosent rely on somebody grabbing a dictionary to check if they can use a word to be changed into their meaning. OK?

Anyway any futher word on wh will be doing our book. I do rember hearing that swallow would be on it but i discounted it straight away. Really would have thought they would have done one on us by now as the herasy had mor effect on us that any legion bar the black legion... and i suppose as much as most of the taitors...

[SamaNagol]

Possibly.... Sanguinius was found very early and only 8 Legions had been raised by the time the Emperor came to Baal. He then created the 9th after Sanguinius' image. This would also coincide with the gene-seed being intrinsically flawed. They would have had no record of Sanguinius' gene seed on terra unlike the other Primarchs, and by the time he was discovered his genes had already been altered by Chaos (Given that it was their travel through the warp to their adoptive homes which gave them their mutations such as wings etc). Thus their gene seed would always be flawed as a Legion...

 

Or, as was put forward before the legion already existed as the IX Legion, and 10,000 Baal natives were inducted to bolster numbers and they were given the name 'Blood Angels' after their Primarch

[banis]

GW has written tons of times that all the 20 legions where created before the crusade began, and they will write it again. Add that the number of the legion is the number of which it was created, plus that GW rarely change their fluff all that much. I find the first one very had to belive.

Army fluff isn't written as some sort of da vinci code for us to ponder. It is infact written so that kids can read it and if you find some gem of special new fluff that is open to interpretation. It is must likely just wishfull thinking :sweat: . Same thing goes for rules.

[Leonaides]

want to point out errors and assumptions in the above... Trying to resist... Really trying...

[BrotherMoses]

want to point out errors and assumptions in the above... Trying to resist... Really trying...

 

Let it flow Leonaides, let it flow

[Leonaides]

Gaahhh... Rage taking over......... Must resist... Raaaaaaaagh! Runs off to attack a stompa disguised as a 50 ton digger...

[Grimtooth]

Codex Space Marines, pg 6, CONQUEST OF THE GALAXY

 

All was not lost, for the Emperor still had the genetic records of his beloved Primarchs and from these were created the Space Marines - the Angels of Death. Mustered into the great, ten thousand strong Legions of the First Founding, they were warriors of immense strength and unbreakable will power, with an unflinching loyalty to the Emperor. Together with his Space Marine Legions, the Emperor set out from Terra to conquer the galaxy.

 

Referencing the ten thousand strong Legions of the First Founding. That would be 20 Legions since that is what the First Founding consisted of and would include the IX Legion. Reference that the Emperor set of from Terra with his Space Marine Legions to conquer the galaxy. That would include the IX Legion.

 

Codex Space Wolves, pg 8, THE GREAT CRUSADE

 

From the residue genetic helices of the Primarchs the Emperor created twenty Space Marine Legions, each utilizing the genetic material derived from one of the Primarchs. Most of the implants were common in type and function to all twenty Legions, but there were subtle variances in all the genetic structure due to their different origins. Thus the warriors of the twenty Space Marine Legions echoed to some degree the particular strengths and powers of the Primarch whose genes were used to develop their own implants.

 

Again, reference to twenty Legions. Not nineteen, but twenty Legions.

 

Codex Black Templars, pg 4 CONQUEST OF THE GALAXY

 

But all was not lost, for the Emperor still had the genetic records of his beloved Primarchs and from these were created the Space Marines - the Angels of Death. Mustered into the great, ten thousand strong Legions of the First Founding, they were warriors of immense strength and unbreakable will power, with an unflinching loyalty to the Emperor. Together with his Space Marine Legions, the Emperor set out from Terra to conquer the galaxy.

During the Great Crusade, the Space Marine Legions were reunited with their lost Primarchs, and the planets ton which they had been raised (and now dominated) became the Legions' new homeworlds.

 

Again, referencing twenty Space Marine Legions, each ten thousand strong. Twenty Space Marine Legions, each ten thousand strong, leaving Terra with the Emperor. Reference Space Marine Legions being reunited with their lost Primarchs.

 

Codex Blood Angels, pg 6 The Great Crusade

 

Though the loss of the Primarchs was a bitter blow, the Emperor was not dismayed for long. The Primarchs themselves could not be recreated, but their genetic records remained, and from these the Emperor created the mighty Space Marine Legions - armies he had always intended his Primarchs to lead. It was at the head of the Space Marine Legions that the Emperor began his Great Crusade in earnest.

 

Reference the Emperor created the armies he had intended his Primarchs to lead. The IX would have had to been created in order for it to be intended to be led by Sanguinous. Again reference the Emperor beginning his Great Crusade with the Space Marine Legions.

 

It was in the course of the Great Crusade that the lost Primarchs were at last reunited with their Emperor, taking up their rightful place as the masters of the Space Marine Legions. No mere warriors were the Primarchs - they were also shrewd and canny leaders of men, under whose command the righteous might of the Space Marine Legions increased a hundredfold

 

Reference the lost Primarchs taking their right place as the masters of the Space Marine Legions which would include Sanguinous and the IX Legion, soon to be Blood Angels. Reference the might of the Space Marine Legions increasing a hundredfold which would take into account the 10000 Baalites turned into Blood Angels that you like to quote so much.

 

So from four sources, including the codex of the army in question, all of your conjecture of there not being a IX Legion until Sanguious was discovered is just personal fantasy/opinion.

[Leonaides]

Dear dear Brother Ramses... Where in any of those quotes does it say that he left Terra with ALL of his legions present? Go on... take a long look. Now consider that if I have 2 x 1 legion, I would then have legions. Now tell me that there is no way that all those quotes that you've indicated absolutely positively must alwasy and forever refer to 20 legions.

And while you're at it - where does it say that he created them in number order? If I were to say that the Emperor left Terra with Legions 1, 7 12 and 18, none of those quotes would prove me wrong.

 

I know he created 20 legions eventually. So does everyone else. Which makes your second quote particularly irrelevant. That is not the issue here. Though your third quote does tally nicely with the BA's being created on Baal where the Emperor raised up 10,000 baalites to become the BA legion (nice, isnt it, the way the numbers seem to match up like that).

[Brother Nathan]

dinyone read my earlierpost about reading tooo deeply? Getting as bad as ruleslawers. aragh. if this keeps going in circles .... ima gonna get dizzy. u wont like me when im dizzy, chainsword is far more dangerous then :)

[Leonaides]

Its not reading to deeply. Its like one of those optical illusions where you have a page of 0's and a single 6; its surprisingly hard to spot the 6 because your brain overwrites what your eye actually sees...

[Brother Nathan]

exactly brain is looking too hard. Thought we all knew that most of the fluff in our dex, whilst certainly appericiated over our last dex, still is a bit.... lacking in a way. gw knows that our fluff sells they just wont be bothered to get someone who pays attention what they are doing to write the darned stuff...

[Grimtooth]

You seriously need to be spoon-fed the canon?

 

Mustered into the great, ten thousand strong Legions of the First Founding,....

 

So it is your contention then that the IX Legion were not part of the First Founding. This tells you right here that the Emperor created the IX Legion 10000 strong.

Together with his Space Marine Legions, the Emperor set out from Terra to conquer the galaxy.

 

Does that say some Legions? Considering the context of the paragraph that just referred to the 10000 strong Legions of the First Founding (that would be 20 Legions, not 19), the Emperor left Terra to conquer the galaxy with 20 Legions, not 19.

 

If you had 2 x 1 Legions, you would have some Legions. Not the Legions as referred to in the quotes I provided.

 

The second quote is relevant. Look under what section it was quoted, THE GREAT CRUSADE. As other quotes that point out, he created 20 Legions AND then took off on his Great Crusade. It isn't created some Legions. It isn't created some of the First Founding. It is creation of 20 Legions and then the Emperor led his 20 Legions to conquer the galaxy/begin his Great Crusade.

 

The last quote doesn't lend anything to your theory at all. It only allows allowance for an additional 10000 Baalites joining the existing IX Legion because of the traits of the Primarch.

[Leonaides]

So you're saying that either teh IX legion, whilst with the Emperor, was basically wiped out or that because Sag was so awesome, when he was found the Emperor decided that he should ahve a double-strength legion? That would have made the BA's the largest legion at the time (as the Ultras built up to it, and were after the meatgrinder at the Palace on Terra).

 

QUOTE

But all was not lost, for the Emperor still had the genetic records of his beloved Primarchs and from these were created the Space Marines - the Angels of Death. Mustered into the great, ten thousand strong Legions of the First Founding, they were warriors of immense strength and unbreakable will power, with an unflinching loyalty to the Emperor. Together with his Space Marine Legions, the Emperor set out from Terra to conquer the galaxy.

 

 

QUOTE

During the Great Crusade, the Space Marine Legions were reunited with their lost Primarchs, and the planets ton which they had been raised (and now dominated) became the Legions' new homeworlds.

 

 

Again, referencing twenty Space Marine Legions, each ten thousand strong. Twenty Space Marine Legions, each ten thousand strong, leaving Terra with the Emperor. Reference Space Marine Legions being reunited with their lost Primarchs.

 

I dont see the word "twenty" there anywhere either. You could rule the second quote out purely on the basis that Angron quite definately didnt dominate his homeworld. I could equally go and fish out the Alpha Legion, as another example of a legion that was not present when the Emperor left Terra, but I'm sure you've already read all of that and have an adequate explanation. Which I'll wait patiently for.

[Judaz]

I love sarcasm!

[Grimtooth]

Provide the exact sources with the Alpha Legion not being present when the Emperor left Terra. I can point you to where they fought in the Great Crusade (Index Astartes) and then turn around and provide you again with quotes that the Emperor left Terra with the Legions of the First Founding, not some, but all, to begin his Great Crusade.

 

Look up and count how many Legions are in the First Founding, then get back to me on that.

 

First of all, a "young" Angron was wounded when he was first found and enslaved. He then became undefeated in the gladiator games and then led a successful revolt that allowed him and a "rag tag" army to escape. Him and that his army destroyed all the armies sent to fight him, despite his men starving. It wasn't until the end, when the Emperor took him away from his men, that they were destroyed. I would say that would be dominating your homeworld in a sense considered he destroyed said enemy armies time and time again, while leading an army of his own in revolt.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Dear dear Brother Ramses... Where in any of those quotes does it say that he left Terra with ALL of his legions present? Go on... take a long look. Now consider that if I have 2 x 1 legion, I would then have legions. Now tell me that there is no way that all those quotes that you've indicated absolutely positively must alwasy and forever refer to 20 legions.

And while you're at it - where does it say that he created them in number order? If I were to say that the Emperor left Terra with Legions 1, 7 12 and 18, none of those quotes would prove me wrong.

 

I know he created 20 legions eventually. So does everyone else. Which makes your second quote particularly irrelevant. That is not the issue here. Though your third quote does tally nicely with the BA's being created on Baal where the Emperor raised up 10,000 baalites to become the BA legion (nice, isnt it, the way the numbers seem to match up like that).

the problem i'm seeing here, is you're taking ever quote as needing to be stand alone evidence, but when all quotes are analyzed together it says the same thing everyone else has been saying. and the numbers just doesn't make any any sense, if he only created a few legions when he left why would he number them all sporadically?

 

combining the legion numbers, the order the primarchs were found and critical thinking would lead to the logical conclusion that they were all created approximately the same time.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

So you're saying that either teh IX legion, whilst with the Emperor, was basically wiped out or that because Sag was so awesome, when he was found the Emperor decided that he should ahve a double-strength legion? That would have made the BA's the largest legion at the time (as the Ultras built up to it, and were after the meatgrinder at the Palace on Terra).

 

QUOTE

But all was not lost, for the Emperor still had the genetic records of his beloved Primarchs and from these were created the Space Marines - the Angels of Death. Mustered into the great, ten thousand strong Legions of the First Founding, they were warriors of immense strength and unbreakable will power, with an unflinching loyalty to the Emperor. Together with his Space Marine Legions, the Emperor set out from Terra to conquer the galaxy.

 

 

QUOTE

During the Great Crusade, the Space Marine Legions were reunited with their lost Primarchs, and the planets ton which they had been raised (and now dominated) became the Legions' new homeworlds.

 

 

Again, referencing twenty Space Marine Legions, each ten thousand strong. Twenty Space Marine Legions, each ten thousand strong, leaving Terra with the Emperor. Reference Space Marine Legions being reunited with their lost Primarchs.

 

I dont see the word "twenty" there anywhere either. You could rule the second quote out purely on the basis that Angron quite definately didnt dominate his homeworld. I could equally go and fish out the Alpha Legion, as another example of a legion that was not present when the Emperor left Terra, but I'm sure you've already read all of that and have an adequate explanation. Which I'll wait patiently for.

leonaides there were not rules for legion size, so when the emperor created them it would make sense that he makes the numbers in each legion the same, but there was no max number to legion size at the time. definite size restrictions were only put in place after the heresy, so you're numbers and 'math' doesn't mean anything or add any credibility to your argument.

 

the primarchs were allowed to recruit as many into their legions as they wanted to as often as they wanted to, so every year sanguinius could have decided he wanted another 5,000 recruits and had 5,000 baalites implanted if the population would have supported it. legion size during the crusade was NOT standardized.

 

edit (after work to avoid a double post)

not to mention your theory also means that the emperor may have only set out w/ legions I and II and then said 'oh hey, my sons....i bet you guys want your own legions don't you....?' which really wouldn't make much sense...from my understanding of your view on this, the only legions you believe were there from the get-go where legions where their fluff states in a completely obvious black and white manner 'they were created by the emperor on terra, and started the crusade with him' and seeing as how i don't believe a single chapter/legion's fluff is any where near that clear cut or direct about it then do you believe any of the legions were there?

 

please tell us which legions YOU believe were there from start to heresy, and show us your evidence. (i bet i can play the same semantics game that you are)

[Leonaides]

Provide the exact sources with the Alpha Legion not being present when the Emperor left Terra. I can point you to where they fought in the Great Crusade (Index Astartes) and then turn around and provide you again with quotes that the Emperor left Terra with the Legions of the First Founding, not some, but all, to begin his Great Crusade.

 

IA: Alpha Legion. If you havent worried about reading where I already gave that source and quotes, then thats hardly my problem is it? And once more, I am not saying that they didnt fight in the Great Crusade. The great Crusade was 200-odd years long. That would be like saying America didnt fight in WW2 because it didnt get involved till 1941.

 

Look up and count how many Legions are in the First Founding, then get back to me on that.

 

20. What seems to be your point?

 

First of all, a "young" Angron was wounded when he was first found and enslaved. He then became undefeated in the gladiator games and then led a successful revolt that allowed him and a "rag tag" army to escape. Him and that his army destroyed all the armies sent to fight him, despite his men starving. It wasn't until the end, when the Emperor took him away from his men, that they were destroyed. I would say that would be dominating your homeworld in a sense considered he destroyed said enemy armies time and time again, while leading an army of his own in revolt.

 

Well, maybe the American version was different to the UK version then, because in my version he and his slave army lasted a few years, "soon they numbered less than a thousand" due to attrition and hunger. If they were such a success as you seem to think, why couldnt they defeat a town or something and take more food? "On a mountain named Fedhan Mhor, as darkness fell, Angorn was finally surrounded by no less than 5 vastly superior armies and it looked as though the slave rebellion was finally over. Not even the Primarch could stand against such numbers and the following days battle would surely see him dead." Nope, cant see that as dominating his homeworld. Its the same story as spartacus, and he certainly didnt dominate the Roman Empire. Angron won while the rulers of the world treated him like a minor annoyance, when they finally decided that he couldnt be allowed to last any longer they squashed him and his army like a bug.

 

 

combining the legion numbers, the order the primarchs were found and critical thinking would lead to the logical conclusion that they were all created approximately the same time.

Really? What if, for example, the legions were numbered after the number the primarch had while in the tanks? So Lion was in tank 1, etc. Critical thinking ought to at least count this as an equally valid suggestion until it can be disproved. If critical thinking cannot disprove this as a possiblity, but discounts it anyway, then it becomes subjective thinking which is a whole different thing. The Pimarchs werent found in number order, so I dont really know what significance that would have - what do you think it matters? You still havent answered why the DA's and BA's have such different descriptions for the same thing, by the way - where Loin was definately given a pre-existing legion, and in the BA bit of C:AoD it only talks about the Emperor raising 10,000 Baalites up to be BA legion. Though you did say that that was such a small number of men (despite ruling out BL sources - which ought to include Collected Visions as far as I remember), and discounting definate studio-published numbers such as "the great 10,000 strong first founding legions".

 

As far as legions definately in existance when He set out from Terra:

Death guard/Dusk Raiders (I seem to recall that they got their initial name from their preferred tactic of attacking at dusk in the last few years of fighting on Terra.

Imperial Fists - "Roma" battle honour

Lunar Wolves - had to be around to be given to Horus (as he was the first Primarch to be found)

Dark Angels - as the First legion (re: Descent of Angels, or whichever of the DA HH books was the first one)

 

Possibles:

1000 sons - not sure as I havent read their book properly yet. Think Ahriman mentions learning with the Emperor, but is this specifically before the GC starts?

Emperors Children - certainly created on Terra initally, but was this before the GC started? Dont knwo, and cant remember reading anywhere that it was.

World Eaters/War Hounds - definately contained terra marines. But similar to the EC's, this does not mean that they had to be there at the very start.

Space Wolves - as above.

White Scars - recall them adopting the method of fighting used by their primarch, so they probably existed before he was found, though whether this was at the start I dont know.

Salamanders - Seem to recall them adopting their primarchs homeworld as their own, which would suggest that they originated somewhere else. But was this definatley the beggining of the GC? Cant say.

 

The rest, I cant think of evidence one way or the other. I have yet to read of a Terran BA. Have any of you?

 

Ok then Inquisitor Levenson - there're a few windmills for you to tilt at...

Borther Ramses - I've replied, I've cited evidence that you apparently didint read earlier in the thread, please read the bits you missed, then get back to me. And i really really dont need to be spoon-fed the cannon.

 

A litte warning guys, from a very clever man named Pratchett - "Beware of historians, they think differently." :D

[Brother Nathan]

seriously theis argument is staring to annoy me as its not really on topic and is serving no purpose as its just going to keep going back and forward til something is said that insults someone. do you really have to keep ignoring my posts about this?

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Provide the exact sources with the Alpha Legion not being present when the Emperor left Terra. I can point you to where they fought in the Great Crusade (Index Astartes) and then turn around and provide you again with quotes that the Emperor left Terra with the Legions of the First Founding, not some, but all, to begin his Great Crusade.

 

IA: Alpha Legion. If you havent worried about reading where I already gave that source and quotes, then thats hardly my problem is it? And once more, I am not saying that they didnt fight in the Great Crusade. The great Crusade was 200-odd years long. That would be like saying America didnt fight in WW2 because it didnt get involved till 1941.

 

Look up and count how many Legions are in the First Founding, then get back to me on that.

 

20. What seems to be your point?

 

First of all, a "young" Angron was wounded when he was first found and enslaved. He then became undefeated in the gladiator games and then led a successful revolt that allowed him and a "rag tag" army to escape. Him and that his army destroyed all the armies sent to fight him, despite his men starving. It wasn't until the end, when the Emperor took him away from his men, that they were destroyed. I would say that would be dominating your homeworld in a sense considered he destroyed said enemy armies time and time again, while leading an army of his own in revolt.

 

Well, maybe the American version was different to the UK version then, because in my version he and his slave army lasted a few years, "soon they numbered less than a thousand" due to attrition and hunger. If they were such a success as you seem to think, why couldnt they defeat a town or something and take more food? "On a mountain named Fedhan Mhor, as darkness fell, Angorn was finally surrounded by no less than 5 vastly superior armies and it looked as though the slave rebellion was finally over. Not even the Primarch could stand against such numbers and the following days battle would surely see him dead." Nope, cant see that as dominating his homeworld. Its the same story as spartacus, and he certainly didnt dominate the Roman Empire. Angron won while the rulers of the world treated him like a minor annoyance, when they finally decided that he couldnt be allowed to last any longer they squashed him and his army like a bug.

 

 

combining the legion numbers, the order the primarchs were found and critical thinking would lead to the logical conclusion that they were all created approximately the same time.

Really? What if, for example, the legions were numbered after the number the primarch had while in the tanks? So Lion was in tank 1, etc. Critical thinking ought to at least count this as an equally valid suggestion until it can be disproved. If critical thinking cannot disprove this as a possiblity, but discounts it anyway, then it becomes subjective thinking which is a whole different thing. The Pimarchs werent found in number order, so I dont really know what significance that would have - what do you think it matters? You still havent answered why the DA's and BA's have such different descriptions for the same thing, by the way - where Loin was definately given a pre-existing legion, and in the BA bit of C:AoD it only talks about the Emperor raising 10,000 Baalites up to be BA legion. Though you did say that that was such a small number of men (despite ruling out BL sources - which ought to include Collected Visions as far as I remember), and discounting definate studio-published numbers such as "the great 10,000 strong first founding legions".

 

As far as legions definately in existance when He set out from Terra:

Death guard/Dusk Raiders (I seem to recall that they got their initial name from their preferred tactic of attacking at dusk in the last few years of fighting on Terra.

Imperial Fists - "Roma" battle honour

Lunar Wolves - had to be around to be given to Horus (as he was the first Primarch to be found)

Dark Angels - as the First legion (re: Descent of Angels, or whichever of the DA HH books was the first one)

 

Possibles:

1000 sons - not sure as I havent read their book properly yet. Think Ahriman mentions learning with the Emperor, but is this specifically before the GC starts?

Emperors Children - certainly created on Terra initally, but was this before the GC started? Dont knwo, and cant remember reading anywhere that it was.

World Eaters/War Hounds - definately contained terra marines. But similar to the EC's, this does not mean that they had to be there at the very start.

Space Wolves - as above.

White Scars - recall them adopting the method of fighting used by their primarch, so they probably existed before he was found, though whether this was at the start I dont know.

Salamanders - Seem to recall them adopting their primarchs homeworld as their own, which would suggest that they originated somewhere else. But was this definatley the beggining of the GC? Cant say.

 

The rest, I cant think of evidence one way or the other. I have yet to read of a Terran BA. Have any of you?

 

Ok then Inquisitor Levenson - there're a few windmills for you to tilt at...

Borther Ramses - I've replied, I've cited evidence that you apparently didint read earlier in the thread, please read the bits you missed, then get back to me. And i really really dont need to be spoon-fed the cannon.

 

A litte warning guys, from a very clever man named Pratchett - "Beware of historians, they think differently." :D

maybe the emperor created horus' legion for him. i have seen nothing that solidly states 'the emperor handed command of his legion over to horus' (at least nothing more solid than what was said for sanguinius)

 

in the galaxy, are you implying that there was ever only one place that would have been called Roma?

 

well i've only read one book that talked about any terran marines and that was fullgrim (if i remember correctly) and the only two legions i've seen mentioned as having terran marines were the emperor's children and the luna wolves.

[Brother Weasel]

In "A Thousand Sons" they talk of some of the marines, Arhimon if i remember correctly, comming from terra and not prospero

[SamaNagol]

In the short excerpt from ADB's the first Heretic he describes 100,000 Word Bearers being present to 'greet' Guilleman. So the creating 10,000 marines line does not necessarily refer to the entire Legion

[mysteriousmaskedmystery]

Even in BL books it is never specifically stated that the BA were created before the Emperor found Sanguinius. I can accept that. But for me, there are more sources that indicate that the legions existed prior to finding their Primarch. Some legions have background that specifically mentions this, especially in BL sources. So I lean towards that interpretation simply because that's how I read it and that's what I've always gotten from the background material. At best all that can be proven is that there is no conclusive answer because it isn't specifically stated anywhere that there was or wasn't a legion prior to the Emperor's meeting with Sanguinius.

[matchbox]

I know of 4 legions at least that had Terran born warriors in it. Emperors children, thousand sons, Luna wolves. And the forefather of the inquisition Nathaniel Garro from the Deathguard. I daresay many more legions also had the same. I do agree that there is no definate numbers given. However it would be safe to assume that there was at least one great company from each of the legions present when the Emperor left Terra for his great crusade.

 

In regards to numbering. The number on the vats they were born in seems logical becaus Horus was the first child found and The lions legion is the first.