Blood angels before sanguinius?

[Leonaides]

In the short excerpt from ADB's the first Heretic he describes 100,000 Word Bearers being present to 'greet' Guilleman. So the creating 10,000 marines line does not necessarily refer to the entire Legion

You're mixing numbers here. The 10,000 was a full legion at the time. The 100,000 sized legions has only come in since Collected Visions and the new HH series. So a 2nd ed 10,000 man legion is equivalent to a 5th ed 100,000 legion

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

In the short excerpt from ADB's the first Heretic he describes 100,000 Word Bearers being present to 'greet' Guilleman. So the creating 10,000 marines line does not necessarily refer to the entire Legion

You're mixing numbers here. The 10,000 was a full legion at the time. The 100,000 sized legions has only come in since Collected Visions and the new HH series. So a 2nd ed 10,000 man legion is equivalent to a 5th ed 100,000 legion

did i miss something in math class? last time i checked 10,000=/=100,000. unless GW has retconned something, 100,000 word bearers is not the same as 10,000 of another legion.

[Leonaides]

That depends. If you are comparine numbers from before Colected Visions, then a full legion is 10,000 marines. Post-CV, you can add another 0 onto that number (100,000). To then say that 10,000 marines from a 2nd or RT source is not a lot of marines when compared to a HH book source is a bit questionable (which is why I took care to go along with your no HH sources request earlier). To fairly compare the two different legion sizes you should at least factor in the proportional size increase. In this case, its roughly x10. If a 2nd ed full legion is 10,000 and a 5th ed full legion is 100,000 then half a 2nd ed legion would be 5,000 while half a 5th ed legion would be 50,000... Or do you disagree?

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

That depends. If you are comparine numbers from before Colected Visions, then a full legion is 10,000 marines. Post-CV, you can add another 0 onto that number (100,000). To then say that 10,000 marines from a 2nd or RT source is not a lot of marines when compared to a HH book source is a bit questionable (which is why I took care to go along with your no HH sources request earlier). To fairly compare the two different legion sizes you should at least factor in the proportional size increase. In this case, its roughly x10. If a 2nd ed full legion is 10,000 and a 5th ed full legion is 100,000 then half a 2nd ed legion would be 5,000 while half a 5th ed legion would be 50,000... Or do you disagree?

i have yet to see any where that states a full legion size, since as i have said before, there was no uniformity between legions regarding size, or composition. so as long as the emperor never declared 10,000 to be a full legion, or 100,000 a full legion, a legion could number 1,000,000 and not be full if the primarch decided he wanted more warriors.

[Leonaides]

sorry, did you miss the previous page's quotes about the great 10,000-strong legions of the first founding?

[Grimtooth]

sorry, did you miss the previous page's quotes about the great 10,000-strong legions of the first founding?

 

Did you miss the quote that the Primarchs increased the might of the Space Marine Legions a hundredfold? Emperor created them 10,000 strong, Primarchs made them bigger.

[Leonaides]

Now, does that mean that the Primarchs tactical genius and inspiring abillty increased the fighting potential of the marines 100-fold, or does it mean that the primarchs simply recruited massive numbers of marines. Though 100-fold increase would put legions in the 1,000,000's... Which even the HH/Collected Visions numbers dont stretch to... Can I suggest that we stick to one set of numbers (ie 1st-4th ed numbers, or Collected Visions/HH numbers/5th ed.) as it doesnt work comparing the two (would you say Stirling Moss was a useless racing driver becasue any guy on the current F1 grid can destroy his times in a modern car for example?)

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

just because the emperor created them with 10,000 marines in each, doesn't mean that was the official size. primarchs had no restrictions on how big their legions could be or how they were organized.

[Leonaides]

No, but you're still dealing with screwy numbers... Legions in the tens of thousands mentioned in early sources, while legions in the 100's of thousands in the new stuff. At what should be similar times. And I'm still waiting on why you think the DA's and BA's origin descriptions are totally different...

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

never said they were totally different. in fact i see them pretty much the same as every other legions'.

 

but any way,this thread will go on forever if some one from GW doesn't intervene. we will keep reading the fluff the way it's been read by most every player, and you will continue to interpret it in your unique way.

[Brother Nathan]

Was it not mentioned somewhere that ba had the smallest legion after the spacewolves? im thinking horus rising but cant rember...

[Leonaides]

never said they were totally different. in fact i see them pretty much the same as every other legions'.

But they are totally different. I assume you have looked at the relevant bits in C:AoD? The fact that the DA one specifically says that he was given the DA legion that was already in existance, while the BA one says nothing of the sort? Because if they did say the same thing, I would agree with you. Unfortunately they dont.

 

I didnt know that any sources had said that the BA's were the smallest after the SW's, but then again, I've only read that book the once and may have missed it.

[Judaz]

You guys still at it? This issue can't be solved if they don't release any new fluff. As I said before, you read into it what you already think you know. Since noone have any actual evidence on either view, every post here is just a personal opinion.

 

But it's fun to read, keep it up :D

[Candleshoes]

American White Dwarf 276 January 2003, page 55, second paragraph of Index Astartes The Enemy Within (Alpha Legion):

 

"With astounding prescience, the Emperor had ordered their founding just a few decades before. The new Space Marines were tall and strong, were reminiscent of their Primarch, and possessed a cunning intelligence."

Though, you can construe this quote as the Alpha Legion simply being formed up out of the existing space marines from Terra, the leftovers from the crusade pool turning into the final legion, there is an interesting point of note in regards to the phrasing.

 

The word "new" in the second sentence, combined with the description, heavily suggests literally a new creation of Alpha Legionnaires under their Father's gene-pool, several decades before Horus finds him, and are what he is given control of 20 years before the Heresy.

 

I can see how people can argue on this razor thin issue.

[carmachu]

I don't think they existed before Sanguinius.

Each Primarch is the first of his Legion...

 

 

Every legion existed before the pirmachs were found. They were created from teh Primach's genetics. Some legions it were named differently- The tales book for Horus Heresy for example, has a story of teh first meeting of Argron, the World Easters primarch. They were known as Blood Hounds prior to him taking over, and he chanegd it at the meeting at the end to World Eaters.

 

Dark Angels, if I recall from one of teh Heresy Books, were known as Dusk Raiders prior to their primarch coming along.

[BrotherMoses]

Dusk Raiders is the name for Death Guard before their primarch carmachu. I'm 99.9% certain of that.