Librarian Dreadnoughts

[Puddle]

On another forum, i've been discussing my list in terms of 'friendliness', and the different unit inclusions i have.

 

for some context into this discussion, my list (basically) stands at:

• Mephiston
   
  
• Priest with PW, JP
   
  
• Drop Pod Furioso with Talons
  
• Libby Dread with Wings and Might of Heroes
   
  
• 30 Assault Marines with Thunderhammer and Meltaguns
  
• 5 Snipers with cloaks and Missile Launcher
   
  
• 2 Baal Flamestorms, no sponsons
  

 

Now, in this list you can see that the Baals scout for a turn 1 Flame, and the Talon Furioso drops down to threater their lines (assuming i get first turn).

The rest of the list follows up 12" + Run moves. one side will have 2 Units with the Priest and Mephiston, the other will have one regular squad and the Libby Dread (theoretically).

the scouts hold a home objective providing cover fire.

 

Now, the discussion we're having is that in my list, the Dreadnought obviously works as a counter assault unit designed to deter opponents from picking on my Assault Marine units, as well as bing a general beast in combat. The turn 1 threats (3 AV13 units) should generally distract them enough to allow my Libby to have two free turns of movement (my turn 1.. opponents turn 1 they shoot at the initial attack wave.. then my turn 2).

 

So having this in mind, we can see that my dreadnought (in the majority of games) will have a 24" movement + d6" Run, followed by the turn 2 assault if anything is in range. This, in my opinion is definately worth buying the dreadnought - because in my army, we can see that it is almost guaranteed to make it accross the board.

 

Once its there, we encounter the problems - and this i what i want to discuss.

 

The *biggest* problem with the Librarian Dreadnought, is that we can't upgrade it. No Extra Armour, so we rely on our AV13 and cover (from friendly shielding units).. which i guess is fine.

 

The next problem is a direct translation from this into gaming terms. any result on the damage table is bad for us, depending on the Psychic Powers we buy. In my list, it's filling a combat role, so i take Might for the extra attacks. Lance is a great power - Shield is not, as you must choose either your Wings 12" move or a 6" move plus Shield. If i lose my shooting attacks, its fine where as any other result will be detrimental. Weapon Destroyed isnt so bad, but that depends on your opponent. Immobilised will take me out of the game entirely.

 

So keeping this in mind, we can see that though AV13 and cover saves is alright.. it's still a fragile unit. for its points (175 toal) - are there better units to fill the role it plays in our lists?

 

In my list for example, which is assault orintated, i can scrub a few points to take a Sanguinary Guard unit which can move 12" all the time (no fear of Runes of Warding, Hoods, etc) as well as doing just as well in combat and survivability.. i could buy a Razorback mounted Assault Squad for a fifth scoring unit, and add in some shooting flexibility..

 

so i pose the following questions to you..

 

1. Are the Librarian Dreadnoughts worth their points, keeping in mind their obvious fragility in this 'Melta' Edition?
   
2. What Role does your Dreadnought fill, and could it be filled with something better for the points?
   
3. Have you had success with it or is it more of a liability, since it doesnt make it past turn 2?
   
4. Is it a unit you'll see on an army list before a game, then grumble about? is it overpowered, or is it a concession?
   

 

 

Cheers,

Dave.

[GlauG]

I have to say, my Furioso Librarian saddens me post-FAQ, I formerly ran it with either EA and/or a Magna-Grapple... I in fact took two, until I was swayed by the transport capacity of the Stormraven. In your list, with high saturation of AV13 targets, I think it's a worthwhile addition. In mine, the 3 high-priority targets were Mephiston and 2 Dreads, so the Dreads tended to get killed to give Mephy time to get accross the board. I later experimented for a while with Drop Pod Dreads, which were successful against certain armies more than others; If you take one 3-template Furioso (HF/Frag) and one Libby with Lance and either Wings/Shield, they will utterly destroy Guard and Orks if your opponent hasn't placed a lot in reserve, or you have my luck for seizing the initiative. Never tried them for a 'nid horde, but I fear things like rending Genestealers make it less viable. Against Marine armies of any type, they were cool but much more vulnerable. On my best day, Blood Lance went through the side of 4 Guard tanks, taking the main weapons off of 2 Russ variants, immobilising another, and the nearest one was destroyed;wrecked, giving my dread cover from the return fire!

[JamesI]

I was under the opinion that the Libby dread, while fun, was not worth it before the FAQ took away Extra Armor. Now its a nice model that sits on my shelf.

[Puddle]

yeah, i can definately see it's utility.. but is it worth taking over some of the other units we have access to that can fill the same role?

[Mortarion]

The next problem is a direct translation from this into gaming terms. any result on the damage table is bad for us, depending on the Psychic Powers we buy. In my list, it's filling a combat role, so i take Might for the extra attacks. Lance is a great power - Shield is not, as you must choose either your Wings 12" move or a 6" move plus Shield.

Shield is cast at the beginning of the opponent's shooting phase. So you can cast wings in your turn and then cast shield in your opponent's turn, since it is a different player turn.

 

I'm not sure I would take shield as my second power for the dread anyway, but it's not that bad...

[mysteriousmaskedmystery]

the nice thing is even after losing a weapon, it can still generally kill big things in CC, but its sort of random. their are a lot of ifs in just about everything does. just because it moves 12" doesn't mean you shouldn't DP it.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I suppose the psychic dread is a gamble. Can you get him where he needs to be before he is destroyed. If he can charge into combat he is a beast for sure but on the other hand there is so much melta out there. I think against some armies he will do well. I would rather just run a plain Furioso with a pair of Blood Talons, cheaper and a better bet since he can take extra armor. The Death Company dread is the best but then you have to take Death Company Marines.

 

0b <_<

[Puddle]

The next problem is a direct translation from this into gaming terms. any result on the damage table is bad for us, depending on the Psychic Powers we buy. In my list, it's filling a combat role, so i take Might for the extra attacks. Lance is a great power - Shield is not, as you must choose either your Wings 12" move or a 6" move plus Shield.

Shield is cast at the beginning of the opponent's shooting phase. So you can cast wings in your turn and then cast shield in your opponent's turn, since it is a different player turn.

 

Ah, you're right. well that makes him a little more viable for sure. i like that he can have a 5+ cover as well as his escourt (mostly Assault Marines).

 

 

I agree that for a combat role, the Blood Talon Furioso is better, but having two in one list is a little rude. i live in Australia, so we have Composition marks that is rated on the raw power of a list. basically Comp stops the 'web lists' like Leafblower, etc.. and allows for some more friendly lists going to tournaments. it rewards players with soft lists, and really punishes them when they take hard lists - as the points are added to the overall score for the tournament.

 

anyway i digress. is the Libby Dread a solid and viable option or would you rather something 'safer' to use?

[Zealadin]

Out of the BA codex apart from the DC dreads I have to say that I think Dreads are probably the least of my worries compared to many of the other great choices available... they are just too easily shut down. This is even truer of a Lib Dread.

[Redo]

The BA Libby Dread is is my opinion not really worth it. Once it is upgraded it costs a lot of points and as mentioned since the FAQ cannot access extra armour. I think you are just better off getting a regular Librarian for psychic protection and putting him in a squad. Usually he will last longer there then what the dread will survice on the field.

 

I still think Dreads are a viable option but you need to have other attractive targets that present themselves so that the Dread does not recieve a torrent of fire. Also I think that they need either a Drop Pod or a StormRaven to get them to where they need to go. Yet this also jacks up their cost and the Libby Dread is just too much of choice target.

 

My approach has to been to have a Drop Pod and a DC Dread. It is a bit cheaper and more "throw away" with Blood Talons and other units closing in the Dread has been of much use. Certainly takne apart some rather large Ork unit as well as deimating marines.

 

Libby Dread...just too many points and attracts too much fire

[Firedrake28]

Don't bother with a Librarian Dreadnought. He's overly expensive, relies on his psychic powers to be effective and is relatively easy to stop or disrupt. A simple Crew Stunned result is enough to remove him as a threat for an entire turn as he has no access to extra armor. Also since he's a psyker he can be effected by abilities that effect psykers. Psychic hoods, runic weapons, runes of warding and the shadow in the warp can all reduce his effectiveness with varying degrees of severity. While you don't need to worry too much about Perils of the Warp, these abilities all threaten to take away that which he relies upon.

 

As for the comp scoring in your area, just disregard it and lay the smackdown on people with a solid list, smart play and a good attitude. If you win all of your games no amount of comp scoring will knock you out of the top spots. It pays to have a nicely painted army, too.

[Puddle]

As for the comp scoring in your area, just disregard it and lay the smackdown on people with a solid list, smart play and a good attitude. If you win all of your games no amount of comp scoring will knock you out of the top spots. It pays to have a nicely painted army, too.

 

Yep, for sure. I'm quite a good painter and have put lots of effort into my army so far. I've used the Robed Veterans from Dark Angels, Chaos marine heads, pre heresy style Jet Packs from Max Mini and plenty of conversions to keep it interesting.

 

for my army though, what would be a good substitute unit to fill the role if i decide to take him out?

 

I think i may end up keeping him for now, as he'll be a lovely centrepiece to my army :D

[Puddle]

so i had two games today against a very mech Guard list, and a Chaos list with 2 Land Raiders, a Defiler, Khârn, Abbaddon, Termies, Zerkers and Plagues..

 

The Libby Dread did very well. i tried out Unleash Rage (Preferred Enemy) as i thought its better to have that than a possible 1 attack (statistically, of course).

 

It obviously wont work against Vehicles.. but to choose using the Force Weapon or re rolling hits with S10 fist isnt so bad against infantry.

 

 

I'm not sure a 'combat' power is too useful.. or anything used in my own player turn, for that matter. with my army, i need to fly 12" to keep up.. which is the only power i can cast, if i want to assault.

 

i like the look of Wings and Shield.. but for the points i want my guy in combat.. so i'm leaning towards the combat buffs.

 

What powers would you use?

 

Also, this may sound dumb.. but how many attacks do the Furioso Talon Dread and the Libby Dread get?

 

The Talon dread has 3 base.. +1 for charging.. does he get +1 for two matching weapons, or is that included in his profile?

 

Same goes for Libby.. hes got 2(3) but exchanges his gear.. does this mean he goes to 2 base? if so, he's not a great choice..

[Lord Arioch]

Both dreads have same amount of atacks. Talon furisos has on charge 4, librarian dread has on charge 4.

[Korraz]

Yeah, but the Talonfurioso will proceed to wreck the entire unit.

[Firedrake28]

Yeah, but the Talonfurioso will proceed to wreck the entire unit.

 

Pretty much. About the only thing the Librarian Dread has on a Furioso is that the Libby can fly, so he can reach combat a bit faster assuming nobody Stuns him.

[Puddle]

sweet, thanks for that. i was playing it correctly then.

 

What powers would be best suited for the Libby Dread in combat? would you take Unleash Rage to re roll hits? (usually needs 3s but 4s against characters to inflict Instant Death via S10/Force Weapon) or would you rather the extra D3 attacks?

 

i can see Unleash being more enticing, as you've got plenty more 'infantry will die' units to use.. so you'll 'sick' your Dread onto the Tougher units.

 

failing those, would you pick another power? Lance is out, since its a bit of a comp hit.. and you cant move 12" and fire it.. Shield seems like a solid choice, though.

 

what power would you pick for your army, and what would go well with mine?

[Firedrake28]

sweet, thanks for that. i was playing it correctly then.

 

What powers would be best suited for the Libby Dread in combat? would you take Unleash Rage to re roll hits? (usually needs 3s but 4s against characters to inflict Instant Death via S10/Force Weapon) or would you rather the extra D3 attacks?

 

i can see Unleash being more enticing, as you've got plenty more 'infantry will die' units to use.. so you'll 'sick' your Dread onto the Tougher units.

 

failing those, would you pick another power? Lance is out, since its a bit of a comp hit.. and you cant move 12" and fire it.. Shield seems like a solid choice, though.

 

what power would you pick for your army, and what would go well with mine?

 

Shield. Always shield. It's simply an amazing power. In addition to that, Unleash Rage will likely perform better than Might of Heroes, so you may as well go with that, though there's a good argument for Wings as well.

[Puddle]

true, though Unleash wont work against vehicles.. as its Preferred Enemy. something peple may not always remember.. just that it allows re rolls to hit..

 

I tend to engage Armour or tough stuff.. so in my case maybe Might would be better... but yes shield is a very safe option.

[JamesI]

personally, I like might of heroes for Libby dreads. the extra attacks are great.

 

If you are drop podding a libby dread, then instead of wings I'd go Blood Lance or shield.

[Puddle]

Yep definately.

 

I think i'll go with Might, as assaulting Armour seems to be what i'm doing most. Unleash won't work for that!

[Chimaera2000]

Librarian Dreadnoughts are excellent big-game hunters. Shield of Sanguinius makes it our most resilient Dreadnought around and Wings of Sanguinius will allow it to evade roadblocks put in its way. It'll never defeat an entire squad like a blood talon Furioso can, but come on, that's not its purpose. It's a ninja Dreadnought. Use the shrouds of cover to protect you as you leap over their vehicles, flip out and kill them with a DCCW, then stab their Independent Characters with your shiny ninja force weapon!

 

And seriously, folks, are we overlooking that while vulnerable to psychic defense, the Librarian Dreadnought also provides that same defense in a list without a Librarian? I mean, let's give the guy credit. Extra Armor would only benefit him 1/6 of the time on a damage result anyway.... and he negates 1/3 of all damage results with Shield. It's a fair-trade off for a useful unit, not a death sentence for a unit to be sent to the shelves.

[BrotherMoses]

I think its a silly fluff aberration so I don't use it.

[small_dog]

I agree with Chimaera, I really like him in my all Sanguine Guard force. The shield is an excellent benefit.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

And seriously, folks, are we overlooking that while vulnerable to psychic defense, the Librarian Dreadnought also provides that same defense in a list without a Librarian? I mean, let's give the guy credit. Extra Armor would only benefit him 1/6 of the time on a damage result anyway.... and he negates 1/3 of all damage results with Shield anyway. It's a fair-trade off for a useful unit, not a death sentence for a unit to be sent to the shelves.

 

I was about to tell you how essential Extra Armour is (because it frees the Dread to even assault 12" into the safety of mêlée) and then I saw the bit about the saving throws.

 

This calls for some Mathhammer! :P

 

bs4 Lascannon versus standard Dread.

4/6 to hit

3/6 to pen

2/6 to destroy

24/216 or 11.11%

 

24/216 x 4/6 (chance of failed save)

96/1296 or 7.41%

 

The Librarian costs 140% of the Regular Dread.

The Librarian is getting destroyed 66.70% that the Regular is.

 

Lets mulitply cost versus destruction percentage score:

So if a unit costs 100 points and will get destroyed 1% of the time, it scores a 1

A unit costing 100 points and gets destroyed 2% of the time, it scores a 2

 

A higher score means the unit is more likely to get destroyed for its cost.

 

Regular Dread cost xyz pts x 0.1111 chance of destroyed = 13.8875

Librarian Dread cost pqr pts x 0.0741 chance of destroyed = 12.9675

 

100/13.8875 x 12.9675 = 93.38% The Librarian Dread, with SoS, is 6% less likely to die point for point as a Regular.

 

Though it seems small, it is tougher. Add those changes up across an army and a draw becomes a narrow victory ~ all from making good Army Building selections.

 

+++

 

The Librarian can fly+run behind a flat-out+smoked Rhino. Both get a 4+ save.

Next turn, the Rhino and Librarian both get a 5++ save.

 

Perhaps the Librarian is not a no-brainer choice. Good! I don't want you guys having 'I win' units selections :P

But one thing I have noticed with my Templars is, unless I am on Foot (not competitive), I must DP my Dread into the fray and hope for an advantageous Reserves roll.

Having a Jump-packing Dread solves that problem. He covers 12+d6" in the T1 and imparts a 5++ cover save in T2. T3 he charges in mêlée and womps things with his i4 s10 attacks.

 

In the SangGuard thread, people are talking about bringing power fists. Some say it is good, others say the SG can't afford to not have all attacks at regular initiative. A Jump-packing Dread fixes that conundrum.

 

The only way that happens with a DP Dread is if you get him down on T2.