Thunderwolf Mounts, Fenrisian Wolves, and Wolf Priests

[PagingMrHerman]

I run a unit of Fenrisian Wolves who have a Wolf Lord on a Thunderwolf mount attached to it. I'm worried about playing IG with Psyker Battle Squads and being pushed back every turn. My potential solution (if it's legal) is I will attach my Wolf Priest to the unit for the first turn or two until the unit gets close enough to do their 12” assault, in which case the Wolf Priest would leave the unit in the movement phase prior to the assault. This wouldn't prevent the reduction of leadership, but it would make them fearless, so they wouldn't be failing pinning and morale checks.

 

Here's the question - can the Wolf Priest join the Fenrisian Wolves unit along with the Wolf Lord on a Thunderwolf Mount? The codex states that a character with a Thunderwolf mount may only join Thunderwolf Cavalry or Fenrisian Wolves. Does the Wolf Priest joining the unit make the unit not comprised of Fenrisian Wolves?

 

Thanks in advance!

[Levitas]

I would say no. Its the only downside of thunderwolves, but they would be horrible with preferred enemy and fearless. Even though you have fen wolves in the equation the presence of the thunder wolf prevents the priest joining in.

 

You could always give him a wolf tail, and run a wolf priest in a rhino within nullifying distance. And send something fast and killy to deal with the psykers. They are nasty and deadly to thunder wolves, no doubt.

[Valerian]

I would say no. Its the only downside of thunderwolves, but they would be horrible with preferred enemy and fearless. Even though you have fen wolves in the equation the presence of the thunder wolf prevents the priest joining in.

 

You could always give him a wolf tail, and run a wolf priest in a rhino within nullifying distance. And send something fast and killy to deal with the psykers. They are nasty and deadly to thunder wolves, no doubt.

 

I think Levitas meant a Rune Priest in a Rhino to nullify the power, not a Wolf Priest.

[jmurph]

I disagree. The unit is still a unit of Fenrisian wolves. It just has an IC attached. An IC doesn't change the nature of the unit (IE a unit of skyclaws with a wolf priest attached is still a unit of skyclaws). Additionally, the lord could join first to avoid the question entirely. So, yes, both could join. However, the unit will be restricted to the movement of its slowest member, something to keep in mind.

[Lord Clinto]

Is it possible to attach a WP to the unit? The Thunderwolf wargear option states that the model can only be attached to TWC or Fen wolf units for some reason. Would this disallow other models from joining the unit unless they were on a TWM?

[PagingMrHerman]

That's the big question: does a Fenrisian Wolf unit joined by a Wolf Priest no longer make the unit Fenrisian Wolves for the sake of determining whether or not a Thunderwolf mounted Wolf Lord can join it?

[Karack Blackstone]

I would figure that under RAW this is a loophole at best, and the writing tends to support it not being allowed; whereas RAI would seem to inform me that, No, we may not.

[Blckbuster]

isn't it legal for more than one IC to join a squad?

[stinkenheim]

For me its a no.

[Fred Johnson the 3rd jr]

What's with all these "I'd say this" "I'd say that."

 

Shouldn't the rules be clear on this? Are there any units an 'infantry' IC cannot join, in general? If the answer is no, or at least if he can join beasts or cavalry or whatever, then why the hell couldn't the OP's plan work? The unit doesn't magically become another unit because an IC joins. We already know that multiple IC's can join a unit. Therefore it should be fine.

 

 

Now if someone wants to spend more effort then me, and post actual rules, that'd be cool. But poo-pooing it based on nothing ain't the way to go. Just because you don't like it is not a reason to claim it is against the rules.

[Fred Johnson the 3rd jr]

I disagree. The unit is still a unit of Fenrisian wolves. It just has an IC attached. An IC doesn't change the nature of the unit (IE a unit of skyclaws with a wolf priest attached is still a unit of skyclaws). Additionally, the lord could join first to avoid the question entirely. So, yes, both could join. However, the unit will be restricted to the movement of its slowest member, something to keep in mind.

Indeed.

 

But as a new player, I am utterly shocked at how many people seem to not know IC rules.

[Tsavong Lah]

I don't know IG Psyker Battle Squad rules, but it seems like another possible solution would be to give someone in your army Saga of the Wolfkin to raise their leadership to 7, and then bring a Thunderwolf Cavalry model or two with your Wolf Lord to give them the reroll on their command checks.

[Valerian]

Take it easy Fred; no reason to get all bent out of shape over a simple rules discussion.

 

 

What's with all these "I'd say this" "I'd say that."

 

Shouldn't the rules be clear on this?

 

Well, we should hope that the rules would be clear on every issue that comes up in the game, but they often are not. That is why sometimes it simply comes down to personal interpretations and even opinions. What we hope to do here in The Fang, is lay it all out in a rational discussion and at least try to come to a concensus.

 

Are there any units an 'infantry' IC cannot join, in general?

 

"In general' an Independent Character can join any non-vehicle unit, regardless of what the Independent Character's unit type is, (i.e. infantry, biker, jump infantry, cavalry) based on wargear upgrades, and regardless of what the unit type of the unit he is joining is. In general, there are no constraints on this, with the only restriction being that the new "group" (e.g. unit plus attached IC) must move at the rate of the slowest member. So, if the IC and unit aren't of exactly the same unit type, there are often mobility restrictions - which makes them less effective than they would otherwise be.

 

The issue in this case is that the Thunderwolf Mount wargear for an IC places a restriction on him that he can only join a unit of TWC or Fenrisian Wolves. So far, so good, as the OP is trying to join a unit of Fenrisian Wolves with his Wolf Lord, which is allowed. He is also planning on joining his Wolf Priest (an infantry model with no Thunderwolf Mount) to the Fenrisian Wolves, which is also allowed (no restriction on joining his infantry IC to a unit of Beasts, and no restriction on joining multiple ICs to the same unit).

 

Now, here comes the part where some folks might have a differing opinion, which is why you are seeing some, "I'd say this", and "I'd say that". One way to look at it is that the Wolf Lord with Mount can join a unit of Fenrisian Wolves, which is what the unit is, so everything is okay. Another way to look at it is that the unit is no longer just a unit of Fenrisian Wolves, but has now become a unit of Fenrisian Wolves plus this other guy on foot (who happens to also be a unit, albeit a unit of one), so now it is not okay. It's all a matter of perspective.

 

As for me, I wouldn't have a problem with it, although I think it is kind of a waste of use for your Wolf Priest and you could just avoid the debate entirely by sticking him in another unit that he is actually going to stay with and augment in close combat.

 

Now if someone wants to spend more effort then me, and post actual rules, that'd be cool. But poo-pooing it based on nothing ain't the way to go. Just because you don't like it is not a reason to claim it is against the rules.

 

So, the long and short of it is that it might be against the rules, but that isn't entirely clear. Again, I "would say" that it is not against the rules, but one could reasonably argue that it is - by RAW.

 

But as a new player, I am utterly shocked at how many people seem to not know IC rules.

 

I would say that most of the folks who have responded to this thread so far actually know the Independent Character rules pretty well. They have played enough games to understand that there are often subtle nuances in what is and what is not allowed.

 

Regards,

 

Valerian

[WolfLord Digby]

I would say its a yes...but why the hell would you want to add the priest anyway as hes just gonna reduce the movement of the fenrisian wolves and the attached Thunderwolf mounted Lord...and then they will get the :P shot out of them...

[Grimtooth]

Trying to backdoor the limitations of what units a Thunderlord can join is cheating plain and simple.

 

Both RAW and RAI are clear in this case of a having a non-Fenrisian or TWM model restricted from being in the same unit as a TWM. To try to circumvent that rule is not even rules lawyering, it is cheating.

[PagingMrHerman]

I would say its a yes...but why the hell would you want to add the priest anyway as hes just gonna reduce the movement of the fenrisian wolves and the attached Thunderwolf mounted Lord...and then they will get the :blink: shot out of them...

 

The priest is there to give the unit fearless so they are not ran off the board or pinned the entire game by the Psyker Battle Squad.

 

Trying to backdoor the limitations of what units a Thunderlord can join is cheating plain and simple.

 

Both RAW and RAI are clear in this case of a having a non-Fenrisian or TWM model restricted from being in the same unit as a TWM. To try to circumvent that rule is not even rules lawyering, it is cheating.

 

Awesome, Brother Ramses! I have missed the clear rule explanation prohibiting this scenario. Please provide said explanation and backup from the rulebook and codex preventing a Wolf Priest from joining a Fenrisian Wolves unit with a Wolf Lord.

 

Also, please forward along any insight you have from the author(s) that gives us their intent with the rule. You seem to have knowledge I am not privy to.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Here's the question - can the Wolf Priest join the Fenrisian Wolves unit along with the Wolf Lord on a Thunderwolf Mount? The codex states that a character with a Thunderwolf mount may only join Thunderwolf Cavalry or Fenrisian Wolves. Does the Wolf Priest joining the unit make the unit not comprised of Fenrisian Wolves?

Thanks in advance!

 

TW Mount says can only join TWC or Fen Wolves.

The ThunderLord could not join the Wolf Priest, even though ICs can join together normally because of the above exceptions.

 

So if the Lord wanted to attach to the Fen Wolves+Priest, he couldn't as the unit as it is not composed of Fen Wolves alone.

 

Similarly, if the Priest wanted to attach to the Fen Wolves+Lord, he couldn't as he cannot join because of the TW Mount exceptions.

 

+++

 

Can normal ICs join a TWC unit? I don't have the Dex on me....

[Grimtooth]

Paging,

 

The units that a TWM can join is clearly spelled out in the codex. It is what is called a rule.

 

Now a Wolf Priest has no limitations to what units he can join, however by his joining a unit that contains thunderwolves, he is forcing them to break their rule.

 

So while theoretically a Wolf Priest can join a thunderlord and Fenrisian wolves, the moment he does the thunderlord can no longer be part of that unit due to his limitations.

 

As was pointed out in the old codex, the faq, and Blood Claws, you cannot use a game mechanic to break a rule. Case in point was firing a plasmagun equipped Blood Claw to prevent them from being forced to charge if within 6" of an enemy unit. This was rectified in the new codex by not allowing them to shoot at all if within charge range.

 

So if you want to backdoor the rule by joining the Wolf Priest to the unit, you are willingly and knowingly breaking the TWM rule, and thus cheating.

[The_Betrayed_Spacewolf]

actually no. as long as the twolves join a fenrisian wolves unit they are fine. the wolf priest can then join and there is no problem as the wolf priest has no restriction. end of debate, end of story. THE RULES ALLOW IT.

[Grimtooth]

actually no. as long as the twolves join a fenrisian wolves unit they are fine. the wolf priest can then join and there is no problem as the wolf priest has no restriction. end of debate, end of story. THE RULES ALLOW IT.

 

The TWM can only join Fenrisian wolves and TWC. As soon the Wolf Priest joins the TWM with Fenrisian wolves or TWC, the thunderlord is no longer eligible to be part of that unit. As the codex mentions the would be just "asking for trouble".

 

You act as if once the TWM joins the Fenrisian wolves or TWC by himself, the condition is fulfilled. However the TWM is not a temporary condition. A wolf lord for example suddenly does not have a TWM after he has joined Fenrisian wolves or TWC. It is a constant condition whose requirements must be met at all times. The moment you move the Wolf Priest within coherency of the TWM/Fenrisian wolves unit, you are breaking the TWM requirement of only being allowed to be with Fenrisian wolves and TWC.

 

Try as you might to rules lawyer around it, you are left trying to prove a condition that is illegal.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

actually no. as long as the twolves join a fenrisian wolves unit they are fine. the wolf priest can then join and there is no problem as the wolf priest has no restriction. end of debate, end of story. THE RULES ALLOW IT.

 

 

TWM says "... he may only join TWC or Fen Wolf units - anything else is asking for trouble"

 

You argue that the Priest can now join the Wolf unit as he has no restrictions on him.

 

Imagine this scenario without the Wolf unit.

 

Does that then mean although the ThunderLord could not join the Priest,

the Priest could join a ThunderLord?

 

"the wolf priest can then join and there is no problem as the wolf priest has no restriction. end of debate, end of story. THE RULES ALLOW IT."

 

+++

 

It is interesting to note that Canis Wolfborn does not have a TWM ~ does this mean he can join any unit he wishes?

 

Also TWC are not listed as having a TWM ~ does this mean any IC can join them?

Ragnar imparting Furious Charge or a Wolf Priest with Preferred enemy could be monstrous, even with the loss of movement....

[Grimtooth]

+++

 

It is interesting to note that Canis Wolfborn does not have a TWM ~ does this mean he can join any unit he wishes?

 

Also TWC are not listed as having a TWM ~ does this mean any IC can join them?

Ragnar imparting Furious Charge or a Wolf Priest with Preferred enemy could be monstrous, even with the loss of movement....

 

This is what the Str4(5) thunderlords argument has brought up as well. People are more then quick to point out that neither Canis or TWC list TWM as wargear. RAW you are able to join them or have them joined by whoever since the specifically do not have TWM as wargear and thus are not needed to follow the TWM wargear entry. However, I err on the side of not being a complete browneye and acknowledge that they are indeed mounted on thunderwolves and follow the TWM entry.

[PagingMrHerman]

Paging,

 

The units that a TWM can join is clearly spelled out in the codex. It is what is called a rule.

 

I understand that you cannot attach a Thunderwolf Mounted IC with a unit of, say, Grey Hunters. However, there is no rule stating that another IC is prohibited from joining a unit of Fenrisian Wolves or TWC if a Thunderwolf Mounted IC is attached already. No such rule. None.

 

Now a Wolf Priest has no limitations to what units he can join, however by his joining a unit that contains thunderwolves, he is forcing them to break their rule.

 

So while theoretically a Wolf Priest can join a thunderlord and Fenrisian wolves, the moment he does the thunderlord can no longer be part of that unit due to his limitations.

 

There is no rules basis for these statements. In no current rulebook, codex, or FAQ is this stated.

 

As was pointed out in the old codex, the faq, and Blood Claws, you cannot use a game mechanic to break a rule. Case in point was firing a plasmagun equipped Blood Claw to prevent them from being forced to charge if within 6" of an enemy unit. This was rectified in the new codex by not allowing them to shoot at all if within charge range.

 

Old codexes, FAQS, rulebooks, etc. are not relevant. In fact, if you use them as a basis for 5th edition rules, you're the one cheating.

 

So if you want to backdoor the rule by joining the Wolf Priest to the unit, you are willingly and knowingly breaking the TWM rule, and thus cheating.

 

There's no rule to backdoor, therefore it's not cheating.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

This is what the Str4(5) thunderlords argument has brought up as well. People are more then quick to point out that neither Canis or TWC list TWM as wargear. RAW you are able to join them or have them joined by whoever since the specifically do not have TWM as wargear and thus are not needed to follow the TWM wargear entry. However, I err on the side of not being a complete browneye and acknowledge that they are indeed mounted on thunderwolves and follow the TWM entry.

 

Actually, I think this is interesting.

 

If your foe insists on s4[5] = 9 for the ThunderLord, then by the same logic Canis and TWC do get to join non Thunder or Fen wolf stuff.

If he doesn't like pure RAW, then the ThunderLord gets s10 and Canis and TWC follow the RAI of TWM

 

Sounds fair to me, that the RAW or RAI gets applied to both circumstances. If he's RAW, you are RAW. If he's RAI, you are too ;)

 

+++

 

PagingMrHerman

 

I feel I have answered your question.

You cannot attach the TWM to Infantry.

Nor can you attach Infantry to TWM.

That Infantry forms a portion of a Beast unit, still does not make the new unit not having some Infantry.

 

Are you saying an IC can attach to the TWM as the Infantry IC does not have the restriction? I would not think so.

How is it that a unit containing either an Infantry or a TWM IC could be joined to the other then?

It cannot.

[PagingMrHerman]

Marshal Wilhelm, I feel that you have not supported your position with any real rules from the rulebook or codex. I have no idea why you're bringing infantry and beast unit types into this discussion - is there a rule I'm unaware of? If so, please tell me where to find it.

 

From what I see, this is just your own personal ruling on the matter as the rules are not clear one way or the other, and if the rules do not prohibit it, then I don't understand why it wouldn't be legal.