Thunderwolf Mounts, Fenrisian Wolves, and Wolf Priests

[G. A. K.]

I don't see what all the trouble is. The TWM resriction is only used to detail who an IC on a TWM can join, so no footslogging greyhunters can be used to get the lord in range to move off alone. He can't lead those warriors effectvely while controling his mount. ICs only other resriction is that they can't join vehicle or monstrous creature units, plan and simple.

I fail to see why a IC w/ TWM can't join the unit, and have another IC join the unit as well. It seems that 'you guys' are reading way to into this. Its only purpose of the TWM resritction IMHO is to limit the 'bodyguard' choices for the TWMed IC: either you get cheap and swishy ones, or tough and pricy ones. Having an IC join a unit has no effect on the unit's original classification.

example:

If I joined an IC w/ a jumppack (or a wolfguard for that matter) to a squad of GHs, does that make the GHs jump infanrty? No it doesn't. I see no difference between those occurances. If i'm wrong then I just found the best way to stop JoWW from hurting my units all together, because it has no effect on jump infantry.

 

Is this really an issue? who has thier panties in such a bunch over this? I'd say the problem is them not us. I see a lot of posts but no real logic here, as stated before there is only a lot of 'i think' or RAI. I don't have a crystal ball so I wait for the FAQs and don't wade into the murky waters of RAI.

 

my .02

 

G

[Grimtooth]

I don't see what all the trouble is. The TWM resriction is only used to detail who an IC on a TWM can join, so no footslogging greyhunters can be used to get the lord in range to move off alone. He can't lead those warriors effectvely while controling his mount. ICs only other resriction is that they can't join vehicle or monstrous creature units, plan and simple.

I fail to see why a IC w/ TWM can't join the unit, and have another IC join the unit as well. It seems that 'you guys' are reading way to into this. Its only purpose of the TWM resritction IMHO is to limit the 'bodyguard' choices for the TWMed IC: either you get cheap and swishy ones, or tough and pricy ones. Having an IC join a unit has no effect on the unit's original classification.

example:

If I joined an IC w/ a jumppack (or a wolfguard for that matter) to a squad of GHs, does that make the GHs jump infanrty? No it doesn't. I see no difference between those occurances. If i'm wrong then I just found the best way to stop JoWW from hurting my units all together, because it has no effect on jump infantry.

 

Is this really an issue? who has thier panties in such a bunch over this? I'd say the problem is them not us. I see a lot of posts but no real logic here, as stated before there is only a lot of 'i think' or RAI. I don't have a crystal ball so I wait for the FAQs and don't wade into the murky waters of RAI.

 

my .02

 

G

 

There is no qualm that a Wolf Priest can join the unit. However by doing so, he makes it illegal for the TWM to be part of that unit.

 

The TWM rule specifically lists the units he may join, ergo, becoming part of said units. At no time does that rule cease to be in effect. As long a the TWM is part of that unit, it can ony consist of said allowed units (Fenrisian wolves/TWC).

 

So it doesn't matter if you join the Wolf Priest to the unit after the fact. Once he joins he has made it illegal for the TWM to continue being part of said unit.

[Blckbuster]

an IC joining a unit does not change the type of unit it is

[jmurph]

Ramses: Please read your rules more carefully. The TWM restriction only applies to joining units. Once joined, it doesn't state he must leave. Of course if he did leave, you could then make an argument that he could not rejoin. It would be an erroneous one since the unit type doesn't change based on other attached characters, but you could make it.

 

Unless, of course, you can cite a rule stating that a unit of X ceases to be that whenever and IC joins the unit. :)

[Grimtooth]

Please explain how a Wolf Priest becomes either a Fenrisian wolf or a TWC when he joins said unit.

 

He doesn't therefore making it impossible for the TWM to remain part of that unit.

 

Please explain how a TWM stops being a TWM by being joined by a Wolf Priest.

 

He doesn't. He is still a TWM and will be a TWM until removed from play and thus is requiered to maintain following his rules.

 

I mean really, how do you get around the simple ruling that TWM can only be members of Fenrisian wolve units or TWC units?

[jmurph]

Please explain how a Wolf Priest becomes either a Fenrisian wolf or a TWC when he joins said unit.

Irrelevant. The unit is still the unit- it now just has a joined IC. A unit of TWC with an attached Wolf Priest is still a unit of TWC. Can you provide a source that contradicts this? Even if the unit is somehow no longer a TWC unit (for argument's sake it is now some unspecified unit), joining the priest *after* the TWM HQ still avoids this.

 

He doesn't therefore making it impossible for the TWM to remain part of that unit.

 

Rules please? The TWM mount rules only apply to joining.

 

Please explain how a TWM stops being a TWM by being joined by a Wolf Priest.

 

It doesn't. So what?

 

He doesn't. He is still a TWM and will be a TWM until removed from play and thus is requiered to maintain following his rules.

 

I agree.

 

I mean really, how do you get around the simple ruling that TWM can only be members of Fenrisian wolve units or TWC units?

 

Because that is not what the rule says. The rule states:"... (H)e may only join Thunderwolf Cavalry or Fenrisian Wolves units". It does not address units he has already joined. Indeed, arguing he remains a separate units contradicts both the rules and the argument that he can't join a legal unit with an IC attached.

[Grimtooth]

Except the rule for IC leaving and joining units is exactly that.

 

When an IC joins a unit, he becomes part of that unit for all intents and purposes except close combat where he is treated as a separate unit.

 

So when the rule says, ".....he may only join Thunderwolf Cavalry or Fenrisian Wolves units..." that means ...."he may only become a part of Thunderwolf Calvary or Fenrisian Wolves units.

 

That is the TWM rule in the SW Codex working in perfect conjunction with the IC leaving and joining units rule in the BRB.

 

While you want to argue semantics by saying, "Well the Wolf Lord on a TWM with Fenrisian wolves didn't technically join the Wolf Priest, the Wolf Priest joined them" you are still left breaking the rule that an IC with a TWM can only be members of Fenrisian wolf units or TWC.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Marshal Wilhelm, I feel that you have not supported your position with any real rules from the rulebook or codex. I have no idea why you're bringing infantry and beast unit types into this discussion - is there a rule I'm unaware of? If so, please tell me where to find it.

 

From what I see, this is just your own personal ruling on the matter as the rules are not clear one way or the other, and if the rules do not prohibit it, then I don't understand why it wouldn't be legal.

 

TWM says can only join Fen Wolves or TWC. This is clear.

 

Are you saying that a normal IC can join the TWM IC?

Yes ~ because the normal IC has no restriction on him?

No ~ because changing who joins who is just trying to get around a clear rule?

 

What do you pick?

It never explicitly says that although you cannot join a TWM to an IC who is not TWC or FenWolf, you cannot get the IC [who is not TWC or FenWolf] to join the TWM.

Are you suggesting "and if the rules do not prohibit it" that it is in fact legal for the non FenWolf/TWC IC to join the TWM?

Is it that the "rules are not clear one way or the other" on this, in your opinion?

 

a}I pick No, because the TWM not being able to join the non-Fen wolf/TWC IC [which was why I used Infantry to designate him as being "not Fen Wolf/TWC" in my previous post] is the same as the Infantry IC not being able to join the TWM.{a

This is not a personal ruling. Just understanding what TWM is saying.

 

When the Priest joins the FenWolves, the TWM still cannot join this new unit. The unit now has Infantry in it. It is ineligible for the TWM to join. This is not a personal ruling. The unit is now combined and IS made up of two kinds of model. One that is eligible for the TWM to join and the other is ineligible for the TWM to join.

So the unit is ineligible to be joined.

 

When the TWM joins the FenWolves, the IC still cannot join this new unit. If the Infantry IC could not join the TWM in an effort to get around the TWM rule *as per {a}*then just because the unit is mostly made of FenWolves [which are fine to join] does not make the TWM any less a TWM and so the unit is still not okay for the Infantry IC to join.

 

I hope I have made my post more clear for you and have shown I am not making personal rulings on this.

 

What do you think about my points?

[The_Betrayed_Spacewolf]

the rules also do not say the priest can not join the unit. just attach the wolf lord first and all rules are satisfied. the wolf lord joined a twc or f. wolf unit and there is nothing stopping the wolf priest. this is not up for discussion this is the rules.

[Grimtooth]

the rules also do not say the priest can not join the unit. just attach the wolf lord first and all rules are satisfied. the wolf lord joined a twc or f. wolf unit and there is nothing stopping the wolf priest. this is not up for discussion this is the rules.

 

Your post is like a parrot that has been hanging out with Paging and JMurph. At no point do you actually address either the TWM rule or IC joining or leaving a unit rule, which both exclude you from trying to join a Wolf Priest to a TWM via cheating.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

the rules also do not say the priest can not join the unit. just attach the wolf lord first and all rules are satisfied. the wolf lord joined a twc or f. wolf unit and there is nothing stopping the wolf priest. this is not up for discussion this is the rules.

 

BBB pg 47

"Characters as leaders

Remember that a unit's Ld tests are taken using the Leadership of the model with the highest Ld value in the unit (see page 8). As characters normally have a better Ld than other warriors, this means they make very good leaders for other units in the army"

 

pg 8

"Leadership tests

Tests made against the Ld characteristic (like Morale checks) are different from other tests. In the case of a Ld test, roll 2d6.... If the result is equal to or less than the model's Ld, the test is passed.

If a unit includes models with different Ld values, always use the one with the highest Ld value...."

 

pg 48

Third dot point

"While an IC is part of a unit, he must obey the usual coherency rules. The combined unit moves and assaults at the speed of the slowest model while they stay together"

 

When the Wolf Priest joins the FenWolves, he and they become one unit.

Therefore the TWM cannot join them.

 

When the TWM joins the FenWolves, he and they become one unit.

Therefore the Priest cannot join them.

->unless you are saying [if we get rid of the FenWolves for a moment] that although the TWM cannot join the Wolf Priest, if the Priest is the one doing the joining to the TWM it is okay because the Priest does not have that restriction on him....? I hope not.

[The_Betrayed_Spacewolf]

ok leadership tests have nothing to do with this problem.... so thats useless. coherency is not the problem either.... so ... do you have a point?

 

when the wolf lord on mount joins the wolves he is part of the fenrisian wolf units. he is not part of the wolf priest unit now is he? the wolf priest can then join later on as all his rules have been completed. there is nothing the in the thunderwolf rules that state they must leave when another character joins does it?

[Marshal Wilhelm]

ok leadership tests have nothing to do with this problem.... so thats useless. coherency is not the problem either.... so ... do you have a point?

 

when the wolf lord on mount joins the wolves he is part of the fenrisian wolf units. he is not part of the wolf priest unit now is he? the wolf priest can then join later on as all his rules have been completed. there is nothing the in the thunderwolf rules that state they must leave when another character joins does it?

 

Let's cut to the chase. :P

This is the question I need you to answer :sweat: :

 

If there were no FenWolves in this scenario, are you saying that the Wolf Priest could join the TWM?

 

+++

 

My quotes show exactly what happens when an IC joins a unit.

It is not Unit A + Unit B.

Or Unit A and Unit B kin close proximity.

 

They become one new unit. Unit X, if you will.

 

Quote 1 shows they become one new unit.

"Remember that a unit's Ld tests are taken using the Leadership of the model with the highest Ld value in the unit (see page 8)"

In the unit, not anything seperate.

A member of the unit.

 

Quote 2 clarifies [if it is needed] that the IC is not a trailer to the unit's car, if you will, but that he is of the unit.

"If a unit includes models with different Ld values, always use the one with the highest Ld value...."

Includes. Part of. Belonging to.

 

Quote 3, lifted straight from the IC joining and leaving units entry, again says it.

"While an IC is part of a unit, he must obey the usual coherency rules. The combined unit moves and assaults at the speed of the slowest model while they stay together"

Part of.

[Grimtooth]

Don't bother Wilhelm. This is just about as far reaching into blatantly cheating territory as it gets with absolutely nothing to stand on except,

 

"The Wolf Lord on TWM didn't join the Wolf Priest, the Wolf Priest joined the Wolf Lord on TWM!!!"

[Beef]

I am going to have to agree with Brother Ramses and Marshal Wilhelm, what they say makes sence. Obviously not to everybody but hell it makes sence to me

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Don't bother Wilhelm. This is just about as far reaching into blatantly cheating territory as it gets with absolutely nothing to stand on except,

 

"The Wolf Lord on TWM didn't join the Wolf Priest, the Wolf Priest joined the Wolf Lord on TWM!!!"

 

I will persist :)

Legatus consistently argued for a certain size of SW Chapter, and once some Long Fangs joined with him, it seemed his naysayers eventually agreed with him [or perhaps held onto their views and stopped bothering to post :sweat: ]

 

If some can see what I am arguing, besides your good self [but you already saw as I see] and some others, then the "Fors" might be swayed. Then we all win. :P

 

I am keen for them to answer our "The Wolf Lord on TWM didn't join the Wolf Priest, the Wolf Priest joined the Wolf Lord on TWM!!!" question. None of them has stepped up and said this is cool, and yet it is what they are doing by joining the 2nd IC to the (IC + FenWolf) unit. Once that is answered, I feel we can make some headway. ;)

[stinkenheim]

I can see the semantics of alloing a WP to join after the TWM but to me it is just an attempt to bend the rules to allow a combination which should not be possible.

 

TWM are one of the more deadly pieces of wargear available to our charcters, they needed some balancing measure and that was the limit on what models they could be joined with.

It makes zero sense to me that if a TWM were to join a WP the TW would eat him, but if the WP were to join the TWM it would be fine and would let him scratch his belly.

 

I would feel cheapened if I were to do that as it is so against the spirit of the rule, but I can concede that I do see the semantics arguement and that by pure RAW it is allowed...

[PagingMrHerman]

While you want to argue semantics by saying, "Well the Wolf Lord on a TWM with Fenrisian wolves didn't technically join the Wolf Priest, the Wolf Priest joined them" you are still left breaking the rule that an IC with a TWM can only be members of Fenrisian wolf units or TWC.

 

What rule says an IC with a TWM can only be members of Fenrisian wolf units or TWC? It says join in the codex. What you're doing is changing the wording of the rule to fit what you want the rule to mean instead of it's literal wording. It's not an argument of semantics. Also, you are assuming that when an IC joins another unit, the unit it joins does not retain its name or properties.

 

Are you suggesting "and if the rules do not prohibit it" that it is in fact legal for the non FenWolf/TWC IC to join the TWM?

 

I'm saying there is no rule saying a Wolf Priest cannot join a Fenrisian Wolves unit that has a Thunderwolf Mounted Lord attached. You're still going on about unit types and that makes zero difference here.

 

At no point do you actually address either the TWM rule or IC joining or leaving a unit rule, which both exclude you from trying to join a Wolf Priest to a TWM via cheating.

 

So if you choose to take a literal interpretation of the rules, you're cheating, but if you replace words or go with what you <i>feel</i> is a better rule, you're not cheating? Really?

 

I would feel cheapened if I were to do that as it is so against the spirit of the rule, but I can concede that I do see the semantics arguement and that by pure RAW it is allowed...

 

I think this sums up this thread. There's two schools of thought here - the RAW school and the "just doesn't feel right" school.

 

You can choose how you want to play the game, but don't call someone who is using strict RAW a cheater.

[jmurph]

Ramses, please tone it down with the attacks. People who interpret the rules differently are not cheating- that is why we have a discussion.

 

Wilhelm: Two ICs forming a unit is different than an IC joining a combined unit. With two ICs, they both use the IC rules for joining. Once the IC has joined a unit, however, as you correctly point out they now act as one unit and no longer an IC (except for assault, of course!). Otherwise the combined unit could subsequently join another unit!

 

I think the most accurate argument against the TWM joining a unit with an attached WP is that it is no loner a TWC/Fenris Wolf unit- it is a a TWC/Fenris unit with an IC attached. Obviously, I disagree. Unfortunately, there is no specific rules section that covers this and there are logical arguments both ways, so it should probably be house ruled.

 

As to the TWM joining and then the IC the process is straightforward:

TWM may only join a TWC/Fenris unit

TWM joins said unit- unit is now a combined unit

WP moves to join- no TWM restriction is invoked as the TWM is not joining a unit (it is already joined and considered part of the unit). WP must still fulfill all requirements (IE distance, etc.)

If TWM leaves unit, it is arguable if he may return (see above)

 

As to whether this is within the "intent"- who cares. You follow the rules that are availible. No one here is psychic or a writer of the codex, so all we can go on is what is there. It's not liike this breaks the game- I would never do it as it slows down the TWC unit and messes with how you can assault (must move IC's first). Plus, it makes for a much more expensive unit for it's effectiveness boost- either you get around 7 more S4 hits from 10 fenrisian wolves, or around 1 more hit per TWC at the cost of losing cavalry charge distance, +100 points, etc. Two more TWC would be a better buy.

[WolfLord Digby]

I really cant see the problem here, we all know what the TWC rules say, now when i read said rule i understand that basically only fen wolves and thunderwolves may ever be in the same unit, any *footslogger* attempting to join the unit will get munched on by the thunderwolf/wolves. End of Story...simple.

 

I think some of us are just trying way too hard to bend the rules to make it happen. And at the end of the day why the hell would u put a footslogger in a fast moving unit any...its just plain stupidity.

[stinkenheim]

Two things, the footslogging WP wouldn't slow the unit down until the turn they tried to asault. Beasts and infantry both have a 6" move, plus the option of a D6" run/fleet.

 

Secondly the rule states that a model with a TWM cannot join any unit other than Fenrisian Wolves and TWC. The key word there is 'join'.

The aguement does boil down to semantics, but speaking in pure RAW terms it is legal providing the TWM ws already in he unit and the WP joined at a later stage.

 

Now before people shout at me, I have said twice now that I wouldn't do it because it doesn't feel right, and feels too much like looking for loopholes. However there is little room to argue that whilst the TW cannot join the wolves + WP, the WP could join the TWM+wolves.

Its all about the wording and unfortuantely it isn't against the rule, simply the spirit of the rule.

[jmurph]

Sorry if I wasn't clear- by slow down I meant the assault move. Cav gets 12 and infantry only 6.

[WolfLord Digby]

Two things, the footslogging WP wouldn't slow the unit down until the turn they tried to asault. Beasts and infantry both have a 6" move, plus the option of a D6" run/fleet.

 

Reducing a units assault range is still slowing the unit down though, this is the point i was making. And a canny opponent will take full advantage of that.

[The_Betrayed_Spacewolf]

then again this is all coming from the same people who will argue hand and foot that the csm demon prince is a demon despite raw saying its not; so from experience i find any rules argued here to be pointless as the flip flops happen as much as Ihop.

[Stormbrow II]

I really cant see the problem here, we all know what the TWC rules say, now when i read said rule i understand that basically only fen wolves and thunderwolves may ever be in the same unit

You misunderstand. Thunderwolves may only join Fenris Wolves, but Fenris Wolves may be joined by anyone.

 

SW Codex pg 62:

Thunderwolf Mount

'Only the bravest blah blah blah...However, he may only join Thunderwolf Cavalry or Fenrisian Wolves units - anything else is asking for trouble.'

 

The Fenris Wolves have no restrictions on what IC's can join them.

 

Can the TWC Lord join them? Yes, as he is joining a Fenris Wolf unit, one of the two which is allowed.

Can the Wolf Priest join the unit? Yes, as he's allowed to normally.

 

The Wolf Priest joining doesn't change their unit from 'Fenris Wolves' to 'Fenris Wolves + IC' nor is there any restrictions placed on unit types that may be joined such as Infantry or Beasts/Cavalry (on pg 54 of BRB), which are the only ones involved.

 

Has the TWC Lord joined a unit of TWC or Fenris Wolves? From the above example, Yes.

 

Ihop.

You mean the House of Paincakes?