Thunderwolf Mounts, Fenrisian Wolves, and Wolf Priests

[Karack Blackstone]

I think what is being missed is that we're talking about Fen Wolves and TWC being totally feral and not welcoming even so much as a Wolf Priest into their midst without riding a TWM...

 

I resubmit my lack of support for this topic as it may not change the rules to have a Wolf Priest join a unit of TWC, but I think it's splitting hairs to try to claim this is legal.

 

It may help to remember that despite things, and the rules not being very clear on the legality of doing a WP joining Fen Wolves, then tossing in a TWLord. What you're really after is the rerolls from Preferred Enemy (Oath of War) and it's not likely to fly.

 

 

To quote my local GW staff, doing this will get you labeled as, "That guy." Not a fun label, the power gamer...

"Spoiler" may be a bit... harsh.

 

It's best to keep it fun, and not do this; I won't be doing anything like this if/when I get my TWC units. TWLord yes, WP? No.

 

Edit: Added spoiler tag to the post, can remove or be removed if it proves a further issue. Just a thought that I had, not intended to start a flame war.

[Stormbrow II]

I think what is being missed is that we're talking about Fen Wolves and TWC being totally feral and not welcoming even so much as a Wolf Priest into their midst without riding a TWM

That's the fluff. It doesn't mean :) in this context.

 

It may help to remember that despite things, and the rules not being very clear on the legality of doing a WP joining Fen Wolves, then tossing in a TWLord.

Ya it is, I just explained why.

 

It's best to keep it fun, and not do this; I won't be doing anything like this if/when I get my TWC units. TWLord yes, WP? No.

How generous. I think you should be beatified.

[Karack Blackstone]

I think what is being missed is that we're talking about Fen Wolves and TWC being totally feral and not welcoming even so much as a Wolf Priest into their midst without riding a TWM

That's the fluff. It doesn't mean :) in this context.

 

It may help to remember that despite things, and the rules not being very clear on the legality of doing a WP joining Fen Wolves, then tossing in a TWLord.

Ya it is, I just explained why.

 

It's best to keep it fun, and not do this; I won't be doing anything like this if/when I get my TWC units. TWLord yes, WP? No.

How generous. I think you should be beatified.

 

Valid points, I see we agree to disagree then, brother. :blink:

 

I won't, but being the way I am I am trying to argue the point without becoming accusatory as to those that do it. Perhaps I should remove the power gamer comment from my last post. It would seem to have started the feelings of hostility...

[PagingMrHerman]

No, what I'm really after is what I explained in my first post - the fearless trait. Psyker battle squads can lower your leadership and when you're forced to take a moral check, you'll fail, falling back 3d6 and perhaps off the board.

 

I play in tournaments to compete, so it's full of "Those Guys" as you mention. It could be worse - I could be working for a GW store.

[Karack Blackstone]

No, what I'm really after is what I explained in my first post - the fearless trait. Psyker battle squads can lower your leadership and when you're forced to take a moral check, you'll fail, falling back 3d6 and perhaps off the board.

 

I play in tournaments to compete, so it's full of "Those Guys" as you mention. It could be worse - I could be working for a GW store.

 

Hm, I wouldn't if you intend to win, I did one tournament, and it's really about sportsmanship points.

 

Now that you've clarified what you're really after, maybe squeeze Saga of the Wolfkin/Saga of Majesty into your army? They allow a reroll, which may be enough at times to help.

 

As to this, I ask you, don't. If you still choose to do so, then consider that if you do get approval to do so, it may take away from those needed sportsmanship points that can get you first place, even if you tie someone else in games won/lost.

 

It sounds like it's possible, and likely needs a ruling to be settled. If you do it, there's nothing that explicitly says you can't. Proceed at your own risk; if it's already being done at this tourney, then consider it. If not, then decide if you want to face it.

 

That's my best advice, what would you say if a fellow Space Wolf player did this against you?

[PagingMrHerman]

A reroll when your leadership has been reduced to 2 is not going to help.

 

If a fellow Space Wolf player did this to me, I wouldn't care. I'm not the type that gets mad when someone plays RAW.

[Karack Blackstone]

Then you know what to do. Make your choice, as I think you have, and play on, MacDuff.

[jmurph]

Getting a TO declaratory ruling in advance is a good idea- last thing you want is a rules dispute in the middle of a game!

 

As to the demon prince, irrelevant to this discussion- take it to another thread if you want to argue that one ;)

[Marshal Wilhelm]

While you want to argue semantics by saying, "Well the Wolf Lord on a TWM with Fenrisian wolves didn't technically join the Wolf Priest, the Wolf Priest joined them" you are still left breaking the rule that an IC with a TWM can only be members of Fenrisian wolf units or TWC.

 

What rule says an IC with a TWM can only be members of Fenrisian wolf units or TWC? It says join in the codex. What you're doing is changing the wording of the rule to fit what you want the rule to mean instead of it's literal wording. It's not an argument of semantics. Also, you are assuming that when an IC joins another unit, the unit it joins does not retain its name or properties.

 

Are you suggesting "and if the rules do not prohibit it" that it is in fact legal for the non FenWolf/TWC IC to join the TWM?

 

I'm saying there is no rule saying a Wolf Priest cannot join a Fenrisian Wolves unit that has a Thunderwolf Mounted Lord attached. You're still going on about unit types and that makes zero difference here.

 

STOP!!

 

You almost answered my question! I have asked it 5 times, and none of the Fors bothers answering it. It makes it jolly hard to reason with someone if they don't walk through the process with you.

 

ANSWER THIS QUESTION!

 

Can a Wolf Priest join the TWM? ~ no FenWolves involved.

[jmurph]

ANSWER THIS QUESTION!

 

Can a Wolf Priest join the TWM? ~ no FenWolves involved.

 

Of course he can! Unfortunately, that is not the end of the story since the TWM is an IC and they both must follow the IC rules for joining a unit.

 

Although, you may have discovered another interesting twist- Here is where it gets tricky- an IC may join a unit and it doesn't state the unit joins the IC; the check seems to be one way strictly RAW. I will have to check my grey book when I get home.

 

However, I fully expect that if GW ruled on the matter, they would ignore their own ambiguous rule writing and rule the TWM could not be joined to a unit with a Wolf Priest (or any other not TWM character). I also suspect they would not address the situation where the TWM joins first. :sweat:

 

Another point on whether a unit with an attached IC ceases to be the same. An IC with wolf wargear forms a unit with them, but does not cease to be it's original unit and even retains it's IC status. Maybe a unique scenario, not sure. GW doesn't have alot of consistency on this stuff.

[Grimtooth]

Follow along here:

 

When an IC joins a unit, he becomes part of that unit for all intents and purposes except close combat where he is treated as a separate unit.

 

An IC on a TWM is restricted to joining only certain types of units.

 

When an IC on a TWM can only join specific units, obviouslty he can only be part of those specific units.

 

So as I have mentioned, while technically a Wolf Priest can join a unit consisting of a TWM and Fenrisian wolves, the TWM rule of only being able to join and subsequently be a part of specific units makes it illegal for him (the TWM) to remain part of the unit.

 

That is my closing argument on this topic.

 

It integrates both the TWM rule and the IC joining units rule without conflict per RAW.

 

It doesn't rely on the shady use of semantics with,

 

"The TWM is not joining the Wold Priest, the Wolf Priest is joining the TWM!"

 

It doesn't break the fluff of the TWM description.

 

It doesn't create an unbreakable, low cost meat shield.

 

It won't label you as :cuss.

 

And lastly it isn't cheating.

[Grimtooth]

Sometimes you just hit the Add Reply button to soon.

 

As much as some of you want to apply the TWM rule to ONLY when a TWM actively joins a unit, that is a false assumption. It applies to both joining and when being joined. Case in point, Iron Priest on a TWM.

 

An Iron Priest on a TWM is not an IC. He can never join a unit. However he is on a TWM and is bound by the rules for a TWM. For the game not to break and for you not to break the TWM rule, it must apply to actively joining AND being joined by only the specific units in the TWM rule.

 

An Iron Priest on a TWM cannot join a Wolf Lord on a TWM because he is not an independent character. However a Wolf Lord on a TWM can join an Iron Priest on a TWM. He (the WL) is an independent character and the Iron Priest is on a TWM thus satisfying his (WL) own TWM rule. The Iron Priest can be joined by the Wolf Lord because the Wolf Lord is an IC AND on a TWM, thus fulfilling his (IP) own TWM rule.

 

Dare I say, nail in the coffin?

[BibleBoy]

WOW! I tell you what WOW!

It's been a while since I've read a discussion that was this heated.

 

Note: In re-reading this post, it's all kind of scatter brained, and repetitive, hope something comes of it.

 

@ Marshal Wilhelm: Can two ICs come together to form a unit of their own? Sweet as!

 

How aboot this one? Does a unit change what it is when joined by an IC?

The answer to this seems to differ depending on where you sit on this entire issue.

 

To be totally honest, I think I side a little bit more with this scenario (as rediculous as it is) being allowed.

That being said, I believe that if this issue were to be FAQ'd, it would be disallowed.

 

RAW, as I see it:

the TWM can join Fenrisian Wolf unit.

A unit of Fenrisian Wolves with attached Wolf Priest is still a unit of fenrisian wolves. (I could be wrong on this, place to look would be in IC joining a unit)

 

The TWM says that he can ONLY join Fen Wolves and TWC. While it does give the understanding and impression that no infantry (or bike) units can be Joined by the TWM it does not explicitly say that the unit he does join can not contain an infantry model. the RAW, as I understand it, is about what the rule explicitly says.

 

am I wrong?

 

So, Marshal Wilhelm, I am not saying that a WP can Join a TWM and not vice versa. I would say that a TWM can join a unit of fenrisian wolves with attached WP, if and only if the unit (with attached IC) is still considered a unit of fenrisian wolves, but can't join the WP directly. RAW often make for these very strange situations that are seemingly contradictory.

 

@ Brother Rameses, I am not sure of why a TWM can not be a part of the fen wolf unit with attached WP, based upon RAW. I feel that the flavour of the rule, and what it is trying to do is prevent just such a thing from happening, but, as FAQs has shown us, the rules system doesn't always cover all bases the first time around

Edit: An Iron priest can have a TWM? COOL! But an Iron priest is not an IC? Man I really should read that codex better.

Actually, based on what I've been reading, a model on TWM can join a unit of Fen wolves or TWC. is a TWM count as TWC? Because I believe in this instance TWC is a name of a specific unit in the space wolf codex that a model with a Thunder Wolf Mount does not become that exact unit, he is the same type of unit, but doesn't fall under the same name. so a Lord on TWM can only join Fenrisian Wolf and TWC units, not other TWM ICs, because his rule doesn't allow him to do so. Yeah? no?

 

 

This is of course my interpretation of what RAW means. And I do believe that RAW does not always make sense, in fact most often, the ruling that doesn't make sense seems to be the one that prevails. So I not longer get frustrated I just let it play out.

 

While I believe that strictly RAW allows the scenario to happen (if the unit remains as it is when joined by an IC), it shouldn't be allowed and when FAQ'd (if it's that big of an issue) it won't be allowed. The rule will probably include that the TWM can not be a part of a unit that includes any model that is not a Fen wolf or on a Thunder Wolf.

 

I'll say it again, this all hinges on weather a unit of Fen Wolves with attached IC (WP in this case) is still a unit of Fen wolves, qualifying it for joinging by the TWM, or if it is something slightly different.

Can anyone help there?

[PagingMrHerman]

It's more than the word "join". You are assuming that when an IC joins a unit, it changes the type of unit it is. When a Wolf Priest joins a unit of Fenrisian Wolves, it does not change the type of unit it is. It is still Fenrisian Wolves. Unit does not equal model.

 

By your logic, only one Thunderwolf Mounted Lord can join a unit of Fenrisian Wolves. If a second Lord on a Thunderwolf attempted to join the unit, they wouldn't be allowed to because the first lord is technically not a Fenrisian Wolf or a Thunderwolf Cavalry model. He's a Lord with the cavalry special rule and cavalry unit type. He's still not Thunderwolf Cavalry.

 

People have been running these types of lists for a long time, especially after Goatboy's list at Adepticon, and no one argues the legality behind it.

[Stormbrow II]

By your logic, only one Thunderwolf Mounted Lord can join a unit of Fenrisian Wolves. If a second Lord on a Thunderwolf attempted to join the unit, they wouldn't be allowed to because the first lord is technically not a Fenrisian Wolf or a Thunderwolf Cavalry model. He's a Lord with the cavalry special rule and cavalry unit type. He's still not Thunderwolf Cavalry.

Lol.

 

PagingMrHerman is full of win.

 

I'll say it again, this all hinges on weather a unit of Fen Wolves with attached IC (WP in this case) is still a unit of Fen wolves, qualifying it for joinging by the TWM, or if it is something slightly different.

No sir, you are indeed correct.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

It's more than the word "join". You are assuming that when an IC joins a unit, it changes the type of unit it is. When a Wolf Priest joins a unit of Fenrisian Wolves, it does not change the type of unit it is. It is still Fenrisian Wolves. Unit does not equal model.

 

By your logic, only one Thunderwolf Mounted Lord can join a unit of Fenrisian Wolves. If a second Lord on a Thunderwolf attempted to join the unit, they wouldn't be allowed to because the first lord is technically not a Fenrisian Wolf or a Thunderwolf Cavalry model. He's a Lord with the cavalry special rule and cavalry unit type. He's still not Thunderwolf Cavalry.

 

People have been running these types of lists for a long time, especially after Goatboy's list at Adepticon, and no one argues the legality behind it.

 

There is no assumption PagingMrHerman.

The unit (the FenWolves) do not cease to be FenWolves.

It ceases to be a unit of only FenWolves.

 

It is a new unit [FenWolvesPriest]. This is why the TWM cannot join it.

 

+++

 

Forget the FenWolves:

By RAW, you CANNOT join one TWM to another TWM. Is that silly? Yes. But it is RAW.

 

Citing what other people do holds no water. People do many things, that doesn't make it right.

An internet celebrity doing something also holds no water. Famous people, even ones who are good at playing 40K, doing it does not make something right.

People not arguing something doesn't mean it is not correct. It means people have not argued it.

 

You show people using their common sense in allowing Goatboy to double TWM a unit on FenWolves. That is because it is apparent that like can be attached to like [TWM to TWM]

It NEVER says under TWM entry that it can be joined to another TWM. By RAW, Goatboy is not playing by the rules. Would I bother calling him on it? No, because it is just being silly over something GW missed. Would I be within my rights to complain about his illegal use of units? Yes, even though I would look like a twit and would not get any traction from the TO.

 

We know that although TWM cannot join the Priest, and by RAW the Priest CAN join the TWM as he does not have any restrictions on who he can join and TWM does not have any restrictions on who he can be joined by,

using the same common sense we showed when we played Goatboy in allowing him to join TWM to TWM, we also realise that the Priest CANNOT join the TWM because it is clear that if the TWM cannot join the Priest, the Priest cannot join the TWM.

 

BBB pg 47 Characters as leaders, pg 8 Leadership tests, pg 48 dot point three.

 

These all show that when the IC joins the Unit, they do not remain as separate units operating together but instead become ONE NEW UNIT.

 

Read the quotes. You will see this to be true.

 

It is NOT a unit a FenWolves being attached to. It is a unit of FenWolvesIC that another IC is wanting to attach to.

 

Read the quotes. You will be convinced.

[jmurph]

Ramses, you keep confusing joining a unit with being part of a unit. By your logic, a TWM Iron Priest cannot have thrall servitors, because he would have to leave the unit for some reason. You state "It applies to both joining and when being joined." yet there is absolutely no basis in the rules for this. In fact, the TWM restriction explicitly only address which units it may join! And the 40k rules have no specific rules for "being joined".

 

Wilhelm- you did not address my point. The rules for joining only address the IC joining, not the unit being joined. Therefore, it appears a TWM could not join a WP, but, strangely, a WP could join a TWM! The only argument I can see against this is that the joining rules imply that the unit also joins the IC. However, this is never stated. And it doesn't give any rules for the unit joining the IC.

 

The not being able to join a combined unit logic is a bit troubling. Is a unit of Fenwolves and Wp not a unit of Fenwolves? There are two logical positions:

1) Yes- A unit of fenwolves and WP is a subtype of fenwolves and qualifies (IE they still benefit from Canis's rules, proximity to TWC, etc)

2) No- A unit of fenwolves and WP is not purely fenwolves and does not qualify

[Stormbrow II]

It ceases to be a unit of only FenWolves.

 

It is a new unit [FenWolvesPriest]

Really? Where in the SW Codex can I find this new uber unit? I want one.

 

Hang on. If I have a Daemon army and I have a Khorne Herald and he wishes to join a unit of Bloodletters but there is another Herald in the unit already, he's no longer able to join with them as they are now [bloodlettersHerald]? And before anyone adds that this is completely seperate from the Daemon book it is. But a similar answer is reached if the above logic is followed and the example is given just to show its flawed.

 

The word

is superfluous here and is changing the nature of the Fenwolves when it shouldn't.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

It ceases to be a unit of only FenWolves.

 

It is a new unit [FenWolvesPriest]

Really? Where in the SW Codex can I find this new uber unit? I want one.

 

Hang on. If I have a Daemon army and I have a Khorne Herald and he wishes to join a unit of Bloodletters but there is another Herald in the unit already, he's no longer able to join with them as they are now [bloodlettersHerald]? And before anyone adds that this is completely seperate from the Daemon book it is. But a similar answer is reached if the above logic is followed and the example is given just to show its flawed.

 

The word

is superfluous here and is changing the nature of the Fenwolves when it shouldn't.

 

The unit cannot be bought. It is the result of battlefield happenings.

 

Where in C:D does it say the Heralds of Khorne can only be joined to Bloodletters and not to other Heralds of Khorne?

 

The nature of the FenWolves is not being changed.

The nature of the unit IS being changed.

It is not only FenWolves but also an IC, in this One New Unit.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

ANSWER THIS QUESTION!

Can a Wolf Priest join the TWM? ~ no FenWolves involved.

 

Of course he can! Unfortunately, that is not the end of the story since the TWM is an IC and they both must follow the IC rules for joining a unit.

Although, you may have discovered another interesting twist- Here is where it gets tricky- an IC may join a unit and it doesn't state the unit joins the IC; the check seems to be one way strictly RAW. I will have to check my grey book when I get home.

 

If people are happy to play that although a TWM cannot join a Priest, but because it never said what cannot join the TWM in the TWM entry, and that the Priest has no restrictions on his joinings, then the Priest CAN join the TWM,

then it doesn't matter.

 

FenWolves are joined by the TWM: who are then joined by the Priest.

 

 

Ramses, you keep confusing joining a unit with being part of a unit. By your logic, a TWM Iron Priest cannot have thrall servitors, because he would have to leave the unit for some reason. You state "It applies to both joining and when being joined." yet there is absolutely no basis in the rules for this. In fact, the TWM restriction explicitly only address which units it may join! And the 40k rules have no specific rules for "being joined".

 

Wilhelm- you did not address my point. The rules for joining only address the IC joining, not the unit being joined. Therefore, it appears a TWM could not join a WP, but, strangely, a WP could join a TWM! The only argument I can see against this is that the joining rules imply that the unit also joins the IC. However, this is never stated. And it doesn't give any rules for the unit joining the IC.

 

The not being able to join a combined unit logic is a bit troubling. Is a unit of Fenwolves and Wp not a unit of Fenwolves? There are two logical positions:

1) Yes- A unit of fenwolves and WP is a subtype of fenwolves and qualifies (IE they still benefit from Canis's rules, proximity to TWC, etc)

2) No- A unit of fenwolves and WP is not purely fenwolves and does not qualify

 

Sorry about not answering, I was hoping to get PagingMrHerman on board first :lol:

 

The TWM IP does not have to leave the unit. He does not join them. They are already a unit.

If people are happy to play strict RAW, the Priest can join the TWM.

Canis can join anyone [as he does not have TWM in his entry]

TWC can be joined by Ragnar for Furious charge and Insane Bravado, whilst a Priest can join them and give them Preferred Enemy [as they do not have TWM in their entry]

 

The units become a unit.

The FenWolves are still FenWolves. The IC is still an IC. However, together they are one unit. That one unit is made up of members that are eligible and ineligible for the TWM to join.

 

Marshal Wilhelm: Can two ICs come together to form a unit of their own? Sweet as!

 

How aboot this one? Does a unit change what it is when joined by an IC?

The answer to this seems to differ depending on where you sit on this entire issue.

 

The TWM says that he can ONLY join Fen Wolves and TWC. While it does give the understanding and impression that no infantry (or bike) units can be Joined by the TWM it does not explicitly say that the unit he does join can not contain an infantry model. the RAW, as I understand it, is about what the rule explicitly says.

am I wrong?

 

So, Marshal Wilhelm, I am not saying that a WP can Join a TWM and not vice versa. I would say that a TWM can join a unit of fenrisian wolves with attached WP, if and only if the unit (with attached IC) is still considered a unit of fenrisian wolves, but can't join the WP directly. RAW often make for these very strange situations that are seemingly contradictory.

 

ICs can join together. pg 48, before the dot points.

 

The units become a unit.

The FenWolves are still FenWolves. The IC is still an IC. However, together they are one unit. That one unit is made up of members that are eligible and ineligible for the TWM to join.

 

:)

[BibleBoy]

Hmmm.

 

I have read the quotes, and I was not convinced. I see the logic and the connections, but something seems missing to me.

 

HOWEVER,

I see what you mean about the new "unit" forming. I simply don't think that I am able to make a conclusion on this issue. My knowledge of this edition is just not where it needs to be.

 

This is a very interesting area full of shades of grey. My response in games will be to avoid it, even though the idea of putting ragnar in the mix sounds amazing.

[SeanyPrawny]

If u add a hq to say a unit of gray hunters can a wolf guard not also be a part of that squad? They can join a unit of gray hunters but not a hq. The hq can however join a squad of either. I think the priest can join.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

If u add a hq to say a unit of gray hunters can a wolf guard not also be a part of that squad? They can join a unit of gray hunters but not a hq. The hq can however join a squad of either. I think the priest can join.

 

The WG is attached to the GH.

The IC then joins the (Wolf Guard/Grey Hunter unit).

No problems :P

[Stormbrow II]

The WG is attached to the GH.

The IC then joins the (Wolf Guard/Grey Hunter unit).

No problems msn-wink.gif

Wow. Just like with the Fenwolf unit you join them up in the proper order. Sorted.

[SeanyPrawny]

Exactly!