Road to Nationals.

[Morticon]

Better luck next time Mort.

 

I mentioned it before, but it seems that your reliance on Meph to always perform optimally to make your list continues to be a weakness. I mean you did make it to nationals so I am not questioning your skill just the all in one basket mentality it seems some BA players have about Meph. I fell into the same spell with dual thunderlord lists. I have since dropped it down to one and expanded my army elsewhere with pretty good results.

 

Agreed 100% with the concept behind that, matey.

Though- remember this is at 1650 level - so 250 points is a sizeable chunk and on the flip side unless you have meta-gamed for it, hes tough to take down.

 

 

Small point of contention is not that mephy performs optimally, but merely that he performs or offers a decent average of what he is capable of offering.

 

In the first game, killing 1 bike and Khan doesnt strike me as that average- but point for point it was almost on a par - so even though I think its subpar, I would accept it - I just duffed up the rest of the game by allowing everything to be assaulted when they came on.

 

In the second game I wasted him in the first 4 turns of the game, and he didnt draw the fire he needed to, but he at least allowed me to pull the draw(which should have been the win).

 

In the third game again, he did nothing. Its like a landraider being blown up when your opponent gets first turn by shooting one lucky lascannon.

He doesnt need to perform optimally in that situation or in that game, just perform averagely. Him not doing so in that game was entiiiiirely my bad.

I completely underestimated that little death squad. I didnt do one wound. Thats just attrocious. 250 points should not be thrown away that simply.

 

So, in a nutshell- im with you 100% on mephy being a lynchpin. But, disagree that he needs to perform very well or optimally. I think he just needs to be consistent or average in his death dealing and played smartly - which I didnt do in my first three games. Boo me.

 

More games coming soon.

[Grimtooth]

Better luck next time Mort.

 

I mentioned it before, but it seems that your reliance on Meph to always perform optimally to make your list continues to be a weakness. I mean you did make it to nationals so I am not questioning your skill just the all in one basket mentality it seems some BA players have about Meph. I fell into the same spell with dual thunderlord lists. I have since dropped it down to one and expanded my army elsewhere with pretty good results.

 

Agreed 100% with the concept behind that, matey.

Though- remember this is at 1650 level - so 250 points is a sizeable chunk and on the flip side unless you have meta-gamed for it, hes tough to take down.

 

 

Small point of contention is not that mephy performs optimally, but merely that he performs or offers a decent average of what he is capable of offering.

 

In the first game, killing 1 bike and Khan doesnt strike me as that average- but point for point it was almost on a par - so even though I think its subpar, I would accept it - I just duffed up the rest of the game by allowing everything to be assaulted when they came on.

 

In the second game I wasted him in the first 4 turns of the game, and he didnt draw the fire he needed to, but he at least allowed me to pull the draw(which should have been the win).

 

In the third game again, he did nothing. Its like a landraider being blown up when your opponent gets first turn by shooting one lucky lascannon.

He doesnt need to perform optimally in that situation or in that game, just perform averagely. Him not doing so in that game was entiiiiirely my bad.

I completely underestimated that little death squad. I didnt do one wound. Thats just attrocious. 250 points should not be thrown away that simply.

 

So, in a nutshell- im with you 100% on mephy being a lynchpin. But, disagree that he needs to perform very well or optimally. I think he just needs to be consistent or average in his death dealing and played smartly - which I didnt do in my first three games. Boo me.

 

More games coming soon.

 

What would you consider average?

 

My thunderlord build with his fenrisian wolves escort runs over 300pts. He has made his points back in kills but easily that in a utilitarian role as well where his presence has freed up my Grey Hunters and WGTDA to destroy many times their points and/or capture objectives. Now Meph is limited by his rules as to just how much utility he can provide to the army. I agree with the term you use of lynchpin which seems to be the role too many are BA players are trying to pigeonhole him into.

 

I am reminded of Canis a little bit in that his weakness lies in being an IC meant for CC with his rules and gear but does not have a inv save. I consider his use only as an upgrade character such as Arjac or Lukas and not meant to carry my army as his FOC designation would insinuate.

 

I am going to do some theory crafting with him and see what I can come up with and post up a topic.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

BR

 

Mort playtested his army extensively leading up to the finals. This was his list that he knew inside out. Monday morning quarterbacking/armchair general is all fine and good. Hindsight is always 20/20. Often Mort has said he is planning to drop Mephiston since he sees the character as a crutch unit, so we know this coming along in the works.

 

Mephiston is a good choice of HQ for mech lists. The model can safely hide behind the vehicles until it's time to come out and play. I think a lot of people here will agree with this assessment too.

 

0b :devil:

[Grimtooth]

BR

 

Mort playtested his army extensively leading up to the finals. This was his list that he knew inside out. Monday morning quarterbacking/armchair general is all fine and good. Hindsight is always 20/20. Often Mort has said he is planning to drop Mephiston since he sees the character as a crutch unit, so we know this coming along in the works.

 

Mephiston is a good choice of HQ for mech lists. The model can safely hide behind the vehicles until it's time to come out and play. I think a lot of people here will agree with this assessment too.

 

0b ;)

 

If you go back to earlier in this thread I questioned centering Meph as the tactical lynchpin. So I am hardly armchair quarteebacking now after the fact.

 

My whole point is that Meph could be good for any list as long as he is not relied on to carry an entire army. He doesn't need to be retired, he just needs to be retired from the role that some BA players are putting him.

[synack]

I dunno if he's a crux per say, but I think dropping him for a while is a good thing, as you really start to concentrate on the rest of your army and really find out what they capable of without Meph. If you drop Meph and find you're losing alot, then it's a good sign that Meph has been a big crux for you and you've been relying on him too much.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

BR

 

I still find you to be an armchair quarterback in this instance. I'll be interested to see what changes Mort makes.

 

0b :)

[Grimtooth]

BR

 

I still find you to be an armchair quarterback in this instance. I'll be interested to see what changes Mort makes.

 

0b :D

 

So let me get this straight. I make a point about it during his playtesting and it seems to later be confirmed during the Nationals and I am an armchair quarterback? I don't think you have any idea what that term means then.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Its like people who tell you "I told you so."

 

0b :D

[Grimtooth]

Its like people who tell you "I told you so."

 

0b :D

 

I am not even telling him I told him so. I just think there has to be a better role for Meph in ANY BA list then hoping he carries the day each and every time. Especially without the IC rule or an inv save.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Personally I dont see anyone here playing Mephiston like that. Where are you going with that ?

 

0b :P

[Morticon]

Easy lads. I appreciate all the feedback!!! Brother Rams. makes a very, very good point - and its all stuff i've factored in.

And while his comments are related to mephiston the same comments can be applied to any unit that takes up 250 points in a 1650 game that fails to perform as required/expected.

I really appreciate the backin team..but its all good - lets leave it there :)

 

3 more batreps coming up tonight!

[Morticon]

Game 4- Capture and Control - 2 Objectives.

 

Wolves

 

Rune Priest

Ragnar

8 Grey Hunters - stuff

10 Grey Hunters- melta,plas,wolfun

Rhino

10 Grey Hunters- melta,plas,wolfun

Rhino

6 Fangs - 1LC, 2ML, 1HB

Razorback - TLLC

6 Fangs - 1LC, 2ML, 1HB

Razorback - TLLC

 

 

-

 

I won roll off (if memory serves) and offered him first turn.

 

He deployed with his core in the centre, and the fire bases on either side of the main fire lanes. He put the raider squad into reserve.

http://img840.imageshack.us/img840/4409/img00162201009260921.jpg

 

I deployed like such - attempting to give myself as much cover from the fangs as possible and to give my vehicles cover saves if possible.

http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/3039/img00163201009260921.jpg

 

 

My deployment and decent cover/armour saves meant I spent most of the first turn being unmolested.

If memory serves I blew up his one razorback and stunned the other one, while I turboed forward and moved up with what I could.

In his turn the raider came on, and moved on slowly towards my objective.

http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/2581/img00164201009260935.jpg

 

His shooting damaged a few things, but nothing epic. It looked like I was in a good position, aside from the dauting raider of death on the right side.

I pulled my forces clockwise around and away from the raider, hoping to hit the unprotected lines of the wolves (unprotected as far as hardcore combat potential was concerned) and then wipe that out, then double back to the raider.

The plan was going well for the most part! But then mister luck started rearing its ugly head. My bikers charged the wolves and off the initial volley do NO wounds - including the ws5, s5 priest

 

They do a bunch of wounds to me, and im left having to assign.

 

http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/3222/img00165201009260949.jpg

 

Note who is missing from this pic?!

 

http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/3471/img00166201009261005.jpg

 

So, this is partly luck, partly my tactical blunder here.

I had one spare wound - so - either the fist, or the priest would be spared.

 

Rushing ahead and only thinking one step ahead instead of 3 I assign the wound to the priest, knowing that my fist hasnt hit yet, and the enemy is only on LD8.

 

As luck would have it - i pass every save I need to make....except the priest ;).

I immediately realise the ramifications of the mistake adn curse myself for even thinking of assigning him a wound when he didnt need on.

 

Priests in lists are the core of BA armies- specifically BA armies that are predominantly wound (not vehicle) based.

DO NOT assign wounds to priests unless you really really have to ><; Even if you have a fist waiting to strike!!

 

 

Anyway, in the next turn we continue to rotate around again- me avoiding the big death machine, while mephy munches on his marines and he blows up or stuns some more of my stuff.

 

My assaulters then get a charge on one of his squads- and...duff almost everything. To make matters worse - he does 5 wounds in return. I roll to save....

 

http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/9748/img00167201009261006.jpg

 

<_< Yes- that was my save roll.

 

Anyway...the turns are running out- and his raider is now comfortably sitting on my objective, while the majority of my forces are destroying whats left of his forces in his side.

 

I wipe out nearly everything eventually. In my 5th turn, my RAS and mephy make a run back for the raider, and my my RAS roll a "4" to get into contesting distance.

http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/4028/img00168201009261035.jpg

 

 

If it ends now, I win, if it doesnt, i'll likely draw.

 

My luck eventually comes in and I roll a 2- clenching the victory 1nil.

[Morticon]

Game 5 - Capture and Control - Pitched Battle.

 

Orks.

 

My opponent was the winner of Warcon, the last big tournament this region had had. He was rocking an exciting and hard orky list.

 

Warboss - bling

8 Nobs - bling (with at least: 1pk, 2 big choppas, painboy etc etc).

Trukk

Big mek - field

11 Boys - nob- PK

Trukk - bling

11 Boys - nob- PK- bling

Trukk - bling

30 shoota boys - 3 BS- PK

3x Killa Kans - 1 grotzooka, 2 rokkits

3x Killa Kans - 1 grotzooka, 2 rokkits

8 Bikes - PK

1 Def Kopta - twin rokkits

 

 

 

I won the roll off again, and it being an objective game I opted to give my opponent first turn again. Also, orkies having their speed, I figured id just get charged 1st turn if I moved up. I think in retrospect this was my first tactical mistake - I think additionaly ground gained would have put me in a MUCH stronger position and I had the firepower to take down a lot of his mobility even with the force field. Really dumb mistake :(

 

I placed the objective counter as close to his as possible, knowing it would be a full on head to head fight. I didnt want his fast orky buggies trying to outflank me and pull all sorts of nonsense, so i figured a straight fight would be best.

 

http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/7540/img00169201009261146.jpg

 

http://img840.imageshack.us/img840/7829/img00170201009261147.jpg

 

His damn defkopta made a suicide b-line for my baal. The rest of his trukks missioned up, while the bikers zoomed forward.

His orky shooting managed to do a wound here and there and the def kopta charge stunned the baal ;).

 

I tank shocked the bikers with my rhino and they failed! Whoo hoo!!! But, then they boss-poled and passed :( boo.

Mephy jumped off into the fray, comfy in the fact orks lack AP2 :P Ready to engage the killer kans.

 

The next crappy thing I did was thinking that 2 lascannons and an autocannon would be enough to take out a stationary deffkopta.

I positioned my bikes in such a way to get shots on the incoming trukk - not for backup against the bloody kopta.

I duffed most of my rolls on the pred and the kopta got away with only one wound

Mephy was a bit more fortunate by wrecking 2 kans and taking the arm off of the 3rd.

http://img828.imageshack.us/img828/6668/img00171201009261159.jpg

 

Unphased by the lord of death in their lines the orks sped forward smack bamn into my lines.

As did the bikers.

The nobs engaged and wiped out the Baal and my poor biker squad that had been stranded - thanks kopta - while the deffkopta immobed the pred <_<

Mephy finished off the kans and went back to help with the nob squad in the lines.

 

The kopta kept chippin away at the pred over the whole course of the game taking weapon after weapon off :(

 

The ork bikers were having a rough time with the jumpers but my FNP was now gone.

 

In my next turn, mephy came back to take on the nobs and the warboss, while my 5man ras disengaged and moved to take on the bikers.

http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/5491/img00172201009261220.jpg

 

Mephy instant pops the boss to his surprise (hadnt played against meph before) and makes light work of the other nobs, chasing them down while only taking a wound or two in return.

 

Heres where I made another tactical error. I had to get the charge on the 30man ork squad. I didnt want them to surround the vehicle and me to lose 10tacs (who had FC).

So, I took them out of the rhino and moved forward to get them into combat. I wouldnt (shouldnt?) win against 30 orks, but i was hoping to hold them off long enough.

I took the decision way too early and I should have really waited one more turn before engaging the big squad.

 

Luck once again reared its ugly head when my RAS with PW (that charged) and RAS with PF failed to win combat against the bloody bikes- AND the 5man failed their LD.

 

Luck then spat in my face when in his turn he tank shocked my retreating guys to keep that unit broken.

http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/4272/img00173201009261239.jpg

 

 

My MELTA goes for a death or glory.

 

Now.

 

Pause.

 

Let me just tell you the odds here very quickly.

 

The melta will hit automatically.

 

It will auto penetrate (-2 for glance, +1 open topped, +1 melta) on a double 1 result and it will will penetrate with a +2 to the damage table on any of the other combination.

 

ie: If its not a double one this means that a 2+ on the damage roll is enough for you do destroy this vehicle.

 

I roll for armour pen.

It penetrates.

I roll for damage.

 

One.

 

+2 = weapon destroyed.

 

Whaaat the hell ><;

 

Its at this point I think: "Corbs comes back next time".

 

 

In my turn, mephy has a decision to make, help out my last 3 remaining troop models or go off to help the tacs - I have to make sure I have at least one scoring unit.

 

All this time i must add, my attack bikers had flanked off on the right, and were now annoying the crap out of the trukks, popping them or stunning etc.

He had to then dedicate resources to this unit to eventually take them down.

 

Mephy goes in to clean up the bikers and does so, while my TACs bravely fight on amidst the hordes of orks - doing quite well.

The pesky bastard kopta eventually goes down.

 

Mephy engages with the bigmek squad and takes out the bik mek while thinning down the other orks, but eventually goes down having Perilled twice if memory serves - i think he lost his last wound or two to shooting!!!

 

http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/3442/img00174201009261256.jpg

 

My tacs eventually go down, as do my bikers on the flank, having distracted the scoring units long enough.

 

Its 5th turn now and I move my last remaining unit into place

 

http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/5704/img00175201009261302.jpg

 

If it ends now, its a draw - a hard fought draw - if it continues, the orks will be on me and wipe me out.

 

We roll -

 

it continues :(

 

He moves his orks up towards the objective, not risking engaging me and losing the combat by unlucky dice.

 

In my turn, I know the best I can do is contest so with my remaining powerfist sarge (the rest died to shooting) - I opt for a warriors death and charge the orkies.

Sadly he gets cut down before he got to strike :(

 

Complete caning for me ><;

[Morticon]

Final Game - Kill Points - Pitched Battle.

 

 

Cassius

6 Terms - TH/SS

Land Raider

10 Stern Guard

Rhino

5 Terms - Cyclone

10 TAC - ML, Flamer (fist?)

Rhino

10 TAC - ML, Flamer (fist?)

Rhino

Vindicator

 

 

 

He gets first turn. And deploys across the board.

I start my castle up on the right flank deploying a full ten man tac squad up on a building as a stable firing platform with Mephy and jumpers behind the building. The rest of the forces go into reserve.

http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/9840/img00176201009261401.jpg

 

 

He starts moving towards the area I have deployed in laying down fire from where he can. I lose a few tacs along the way since I have 2 turns of fire against me with only a lascannon firing back.

 

His raider rushes forwards trying to get the termies into combat they jump out - but are not close enough to scale the wall.

 

In my turn I get a lucky break and my bikers come on.

 

They perform EXACTLY as they were designed. To the point where my opponent had to double check that I was actually allowed to roll all the dice I had picked up.

He lost a bunch of termies to a hail of plasma and bolter fire and was then charged by the priest led biker and mephiston.

Cassius and crew didnt stand a chance.

They didnt even get to strike back.

 

The jumpers also manage to engage the stern guard and they actually break in combat

 

http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/338/img00177201009261431.jpg

 

My army steamrolls forward like its supposed to and keeps the sternguard broken. Mephy, the jumpers and bikers keep going forward, taking out what they can where they can.

The pred comes on later with the Razor to start workin on the left flank.

http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/5307/img00178201009261447.jpg

 

By the 4th turn its well over and done, and im just playing clean up.

 

http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/4559/img00180201009261505.jpg

 

 

I wipe out his last units and hes only taken 2 in return.

 

Victory - but bitter sweet - thats what ended the worst tourney performance of the mine of the last 5 years ><;

[Morticon]

Post Thoughts:

 

 

I liked my list.

I don't think the list was flawed. Even with mephy in it- i thought everything worked well to support each other.

I think there was something in there to take on any opponent in almost any situation.

 

 

What I struggled with was facing certain army builds that i've not had any experience with- or no recent experience.

 

Eg: Trukk orks and Bikers.

 

Or with terrain that was just sooo different from what i'm used to. Id like to play a lot more games with huge terrain features or vastly different terrain from what we have at our regular club.

 

 

 

There were a few tactical blunders on my part - and often ones that cost me the game.

 

That 2nd game is gonna burn me till I die. If I hadnt moved that pred, the whole tourney would have been different. Coulda, woulda, shoulda. *sigh*

 

And finally, at the risk of sounding like im looking for excuses my luck in certain parts was just awful. Ive really gotta get corbs back in somehow.

Too many things hinged on one dice. The ork game for example. The biker game.

 

Other than that id love to say it was an enjoyable experience- but it wasnt. However, I did learn a lot and hopefully will come back stronger soon!!!

 

rwar !

 

BA For Life!!

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Hey m8 I think you did well baring the bad luck and circumstances. I've had my share of tourneys where it seemed luck, matchups and missions were all against me. I really like your army and I think it suits your style of play. I remember watching you play a game versus one of my friends at the adepticon gladiator a few years back so I can say I see how you like to play synergistic armies. The bikers with the priest is a unique unit for the new BA and they did show some star power. I am playing a DoA style army now and am having lots of fun with it. If you decide to branch out a bit there is lots of crazy things you can do with the new codex. Thanks for all the batreps. I always learn when I read yours. :P

 

0b <_<

[Israfel]

Rise your banner high Morticon, these kind of things happen all the time, you will do much better next time for sure.

 

Thank you for the batreps by the way, discussing mistakes and "should have" scenarios always help me increase my combat skills, there is nothing like learning from mistakes :lol:

[Khorneeq]

Morty

In battle with Orks I can see one thing that shouldn't happen.

You said that Trukk Tank Shocked Your unit, and You opted for Death or Glory...

It can't Tank Shock unless it have a Battering Ram upgrade, but than You would need higher rolls to panetrate as it ads +2 to Armour Value while Tank Shocking.

Something wrong here...

And go back to playing it's the best You can do now and brings the most fun :)

[Morticon]

Morty

In battle with Orks I can see one thing that shouldn't happen.

You said that Trukk Tank Shocked Your unit, and You opted for Death or Glory...

It can't Tank Shock unless it have a Battering Ram upgrade, but than You would need higher rolls to panetrate as it ads +2 to Armour Value while Tank Shocking.

Something wrong here...

 

Yo! well spotted - i forgot aboyt the +2 to armour! Still penned though, but point i was making was its easy to pen it- but then to not roll a 2+ ><;

[JamesI]

Mort, I find whenever I death or glory, I almost always get a weapon destroyed result. Never manage to immobilize or kill anything that way. Of course, I have a terminator with a chain fist that has died to several failed death or glories because he couldn't roll anything but double 1s for the armor penetration roll against rhinos!

[yodaid764]

Mort,

Blaming bad luck is perfectly fine. Yesterday, I got stomped in a friendly game because on most rolls where I needed to roll a 3 or better I was rolling 1s or 2s. Even when my Las Cannons hit, I was rolling crap for Pen or Damage. Sadly, this is how most of my games go for rolling. Hell, I even bought new dice recently and the bad luck has carried on.

Hopefully you can find a way to banish the bad mojo and only lose when the opponent just uses better tactics.

[the jeske]

well the question with taking or not taking mefo is rather simple in a build like this. What else could be used ? a bike libby or bike chaplain . this would mean fewer targets and more focused fire on the bikes [or something else if they were los blocked] . both the chappy and the libby would be cheaper , but they wouldnt be as deadly , nor would they tip the fights mefo failed in. in fact in those cases when he was out of range/did kill enough taking something else would mean that morts opponents would have an easier time targeting other stuff.

 

Now I am not sure if I said it before , but this is the beauty[or uglines] of builds like mort used . If something goes wrong they do not have units that can do the same on the same turn[because stuff aint spamed and units cant cover each others asses] . this means they do fall apart sometimes because of a single roll . that is life , but personaly and thats coming from someone who playes mostly nids and chaos as main armies , I would take a list like this to a tournament anyday of the week. Still viable , harder to play , but less boring. + as mort said he didnt play against some builds , so he wasnt ready for some terrain/mission/army set ups. that can be fixed.

[Grimtooth]

In regard to bad rolls:

 

Wold Lord is pretty much claning up the remains of a 30 gaunt squad that has been reduced to about 7 from the previous turn. They get 4 wounds on him, he has Runic Armor and has not taken any wounds. I roll his 2+ save,

 

4, 1, 1, 1,.......

 

Death by about 7 gaunts!

[Morticon]

well the question with taking or not taking mefo is rather simple in a build like this. What else could be used ? a bike libby or bike chaplain . this would mean fewer targets and more focused fire on the bikes [or something else if they were los blocked] . both the chappy and the libby would be cheaper , but they wouldnt be as deadly , nor would they tip the fights mefo failed in. in fact in those cases when he was out of range/did kill enough taking something else would mean that morts opponents would have an easier time targeting other stuff.

 

 

Jeske - perfectly said!!

This is actually the basis of a Mephiston article (tactica?) im working on. Basically goes with the premise that Mephy not only fills an HQ slot, he fills the role of a unit by himself, and a unit of power and tactical flexibility.

 

Your second comment was also 100% on - as far as the beauty/ugliness of the list. But more to learn from and I'll see how the new builds go.

 

Brother Rams - yeah man- i hate it when statistically weird rolls happen. I dont need good rolls all the time - I play to averages. I just want the statistical return!! ;)

[SamaNagol]

Meph and Corbulo is a very strong basis for a build at 1750. 1650 and you really are forcing the issue. 1500 and even taking just Meph is really loading the die when it comes to total success or abject failure.

 

It is a very difficult balancing act to make.