Are the DA still playable?

[lorenzo_ishivar_kain]

Same question of the title...Are the sons of Jonson still playable?

 

I played DA in 4th edition with the small little codex, and when GW wrote the new one :) ...

 

So...in the 5th edition are they totally unuseful or can they still win? Of course with their codex, not with the Vanilla's one :P

 

 

(Sorry for the grammar mistakes, I am Italian)

[Tanhausen]

Quick answer:

 

- Playable? Yes

 

- Competitive? Depends on what you play. If you go for special builds (Ravenwing or Deathwing), yes. If you start putting troop marines, devastators, assault marines or basically the rest of the codex... I'd say no.

 

Note: general questions are hard to answer. If you want a codex "easy" to play and that delivers decent to very good results, today I'd go for Space Wolves.

 

Hope it helps!

[Wysten]

DA is pretty much vanillia, only worse since thus far they have been mainly used as the testing bed for new ideas before the next edition. The only major advantage that they had have been pretty much shared between Space Marines and Space Wolves.

 

Space Marines do everything in the codex pretty much, and makes bikes really good troops choices since they are shooty and can pick their engagements with battle tactics to flee out of combat into shooting range. The only real advantage these guys offer is plenty of land speeders which Marines don't lack. Battle tactics is largely what makes space marines formidable and why most special charcters are simply never taken. Replacing that makes them weaker as a whole.

 

Space Wolves can make terminators troops too, so it's not really something unique to DA anymore.

 

That being said, don't have a intimate knowledge of the DA codex. Just in my area it's widely accepted that they are not modernised like most other Space Marine chapters. They came in just before the shift for mech warfare kicked in. Playable? Yeah, just it will be hard.

[lorenzo_ishivar_kain]

@Tanhausen : thanks for the quick answer.. Well I am building a Blood Angels force at the moment, but in these days I have red the Dark Angels codex and made a comparison btwn it and the vanilla's one...So you are saying that if I use a pure Ravenwing/pure Deathwing army I probably still have a competitive and strong army?

 

@Wysten : "Just in my area it's widely accepted that they are not modernised like most other Space Marine chapters. They came in just before the shift for mech warfare kicked in. Playable? Yeah, just it will be hard." I agree :)

[Tanhausen]

First thing, true, SW can build a scoring terminators list. Haven't worked out a comparison list of cost SW vs DW... someday when I have time and both codex around :)

 

@lorenzo

 

Both DW and RW are hard to play.

 

DW looks easy... until you start playing it. I started out on january with a terminators only list (7 squads at 2k games) and learned the hard way that deep striking is no boon, the special weapons are overpriced and under-useful (easy example in the Cyclone Missiles).

 

RW is an extremely sexy concept, everybody loves the idea of moving a lot, shooting and moving again... but these guys are a glass cannon, hence hard to play.

 

However, keep in mind its usually more important how YOU play a particular list and what YOUR metagame/enviroment plays, allows and favours.

 

I'm very lucky because in a 30 km radius I have 3 decent hard gaming enviroments. In my last one (a week ago) I faced Orks, then Nids then Daemons... and I know that the following were present in a 24 people tournament: Imperial Guard, Space Wolves, Chaos, Eldar, Blood Angels... bascially only missing Necrons, Dark Eldar and Tau.

 

The most succesful list at the moment is a Daemons player... but its not because the codex is over-powered: he's been playing them for over a year (he was Eldar before that and even IG before that), with minor changes and getting a lot of games.

 

Some 6 months ago, Wolves were the kings, they took 80% of the hig rankings and they seemed impossible to beat. But then double Lash-lists came back along with bike nobs, the new Nid codex...

 

What I mean is that if you could really find THE LIST that any player could simply buy (not even build or paint: you get a comissioner and its much easier :P)... don't you think it would take away a big part of the gaming?

 

Sorry for the rant :P

 

I did 7/24 in the last tourny, played my final game in table 2 (lost to the winner) and did 3 critical tactical mistakes that cost me the game (could have won or at least finish top 3).

 

That is competitive and strong enough for me :) And I play DW.

 

Hope it helps!

[lorenzo_ishivar_kain]

Well I understand what you want to say..But, for example, once I saw a DA player using a full bike force, and I asked him "Are you using the Ravenwing rules?" "Of course not, I use Kor'sarro Khan rules, DA codex can't be used no longer..."

 

Is he a noob? The rules of DA bikes and Vanilla's ones are similar..aren't they?

[Isiah]

The Kor'sarro Khan 'Khanwing' biker force has both advantages and disdavnatages. No Scout, no Fearless and no teleport homersfor instance. But 'Khanwing' get cheaper overall units plus a conferred Outflank, and any unit Khan is attached to gets Fleet of Foot too. Also Khanwing allows squadrons of Attack Bikes.

 

Check White Scars Codex SM 1500 (scroll about halfway down the page) for more details.

 

So Vanilla bikes and RW are only similar up to a point. Special rules is what separates them, plus unit composition.

 

Cheers

I

[BoonKin]

As Tanhausan has put, it depends on you the player.

 

But personally, it's definitely playable and competitive to a certain extent (see previous discussions). But it doesnt stop you from winning if you play correctly :lol:

[breng77]

Are DA easy to play competitively... no.

 

Can they be competitive...yes. I have won a tournament with my ravenwing, and finished second in another. I have yet to lose an objective based mission with my current list. Kill points are tough.

 

Personally I think Ravenwing is the most competitive build in our book. Everyone claims that Khanwing is "better" but it is simply different. DA do MSU bikes better than codex marines as we can take 3 man bike squads as troops and scoring attackbikes. This means you get more special weapons in your list. CSM bikers must be in units of 5 to count as troops, meaning that you end up with a more expensive squad (they do have 2 more wounts) with basically 2 ablative wounds. Ravenwing also gain fearless (which with small units is good BC they will never run due to shooting) and scouts (scouting multimeltas on attackbikes = possible 6-9 first turn MM shots in melta range.) the Khan list is better in CC as they can take comand squads on bikes who get FNP and can all take power weapons, storm shields etc. In addition Khan gives his squad Hit and run and Furious charge (not fleet, he is the only one that gets fleet on his bike) While the rest of the army can outflank they cannot make scout moves.

 

All that said RW play more like Mechdar than like marines. You need to stay away pick your battles and try to win the game on the last turn through contesting objectives.

[Tanhausen]

A bit off-topic but still related...

 

With specialized builds you have to be WAY more sensitive to the real goals of the missions.

 

I have won/drawn MANY games because the opponent focused on simply exterminating my terminators... and in the end, if I hold 1 objective unconstested and we wipes out the rest of my army... but looses his scoring units... guess who gets the victory :cuss

 

Many people tend to think that "competive build" = smack fast and hard, there is no tomorrow and everybody to the assault...

 

More and more I tend to think of a good player vs bad player rather than good list vs bad list.

 

We all know the template for hammenators ( 3 LRC with 3 terminators with TH/SS with Vulkan so they are "twin-linked")... but I have yet to see a list like that perform well in unexperienced hands.

 

And back to the topic... probably your coleague is not a noob: he simply feels more comfortable with the options the Khanwing gives him :D

[breng77]

@ Tanhausen, I agree that keeping the mission in mind is important, for everyone, especially specialized armies. You need to have a plan in place to deal with each mission type, as if you are not prepare things go bad very fast. That said I cannot count the number of times I have won game because my opponent forgot about the mission. One instance comes to mind where I contested my opponents objective on the last turn (capture and control) and he was like oh we tie. I pointed out that I won because I had a squad of 3 bikes on my objective. He said "Oh I was wondering why those guys were not moving?!

[Tanhausen]

Precisely!

 

And that has nothing to do with building a competitive list or not.

 

In my last tourny, a good SW player let a unit sit next to a small styrofoam block when playing objectives... which had been left behind in the previous game (bases)... we laughed so hard when he found out in turn 4 that he was guarding nothing... xDDDD

[icleadpeople]

I have to say that the current edition is very unfriendly to the DA I have not been playing nearly as much since 5th came out. There is nothing that the dark angels do that the others cant do cheaper and sometimes better. Im waiting for the next codex to hit or at least a new edition of the main rules.

[Firenze]

I do well with pure Greenwing builds. Mechanized and tooled up, I have outnumbered Orks on occasion. And won (although Ghazkull... GHAZKULL!!!).

 

A list with tactical marines is still viable, you just have to play it right.

[IanSturrock]

I agree with Breng that our biggest strength right now is Ravenwing.

 

The strongest aspects of said Ravenwing, in comparison to regular marines, are:

 

Scouting or Outflanking

Attack Bikes that cost the same as SM attack bikes, but are ALSO scouting or outflanking AND Fearless AND troops

Small squads allowing the multiple-small-units approach

Sammael (still very powerful for 205 pts)

 

Our regular bikes are overpriced compared to SM ones, as are our speeders, so to capitalise on our advantages, you bring as many attack bikes as possible, and only the bare minimum of ordinary bikes (i.e. 3 per attack bike).

 

Give the bikers flamers or plasma, and the attack bikes multimeltas (the regular bike squads can do OK with 2 meltas each, but not as well as the attack bikes can).

 

Simple maths demands that we maximise attack bikes!

 

Regular bike = 40 pts each BEFORE buying a special weapon.

Attack bike = 50 pts and includes a multimelta, extra wound, and extra attack.

So a regular biker with a meltagun is as expensive as an attack bike! Crazy codex...

 

Anyway -- your list will look like:

 

Sammael (speeder or jetbike -- your choice)

Lots of 3-man bike units + 2 special weapons + multimelta attack bike

(Optional) up to 3 speeders (probably Typhoon missile launcher + heavy bolter, and keep them out of harm's way).