Two lost legions...

[igotsmeakabob!!]

I know that I read somewhere that the two expunged legions were found and reunited with their legions, but I can't recall where.

Did they fight with their legions in the Crusade? I seem to remember that as well.

 

A friend seems to think that in the (SPOILER) vision Horus had when he was taken back to the creation of the Primarchs that one or two of canisters were cracked/spoiled (SPOILER), that the two primarchs were never reunited and didn't fight in the Crusade.

 

Thanks!

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

I know that I read somewhere that the two expunged legions were found and reunited with their legions, but I can't recall where.

Did they fight with their legions in the Crusade? I seem to remember that as well.

 

A friend seems to think that in the (SPOILER) vision Horus had when he was taken back to the creation of the Primarchs that one or two of canisters were cracked/spoiled (SPOILER), that the two primarchs were never reunited and didn't fight in the Crusade.

 

Thanks!

 

All 20 were found and reunitied with their legions. All 20 fought in the Great Crusade but the 2 missing did something bad.

[igotsmeakabob!!]

I know that I read somewhere that the two expunged legions were found and reunited with their legions, but I can't recall where.

Did they fight with their legions in the Crusade? I seem to remember that as well.

 

A friend seems to think that in the (SPOILER) vision Horus had when he was taken back to the creation of the Primarchs that one or two of canisters were cracked/spoiled (SPOILER), that the two primarchs were never reunited and didn't fight in the Crusade.

 

Thanks!

 

All 20 were found and reunitied with their legions. All 20 fought in the Great Crusade but the 2 missing did something bad.

And where can I find this in print?

[Brother-Chaplain Gaius]

The 2 missing legions were absorbed into the Ultramarines Legion, as hinted to in the upcoming Ultramrines audio CD.

[igotsmeakabob!!]

I appreciate the answers, but they're worthless to me without proof. And saying that the two missing legions were absorbed in the Ultramarines' legion doesn't fully answer my question :D.

[Clewz]

I really dont think gw are ever going to go into detail regarding those legions

[increaso]

Page 6 Codex: Space Marines:

 

During the Great Crusade the Space Marines were reunited with their lost Primarchs.

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

There is no information that leads us to believe the the missing legions went 'bad'.

 

There is a chance that some elements of the missing Primarchs legions were absorbed into the Ultramarines as per the First Heretic, but even the relevent quite section, if accurate, does no more than suggest rumour. http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=209826

[Gunslinger87]

I'd also like to see some quotes, but as they have always said. We will NEVER know, thats the point...

[igotsmeakabob!!]

I'm not looking for printed proof of the fate of the legions, just as to whether they were found and reunited with their legions before being purged. If this isn't mentioned at all then there we are.

[Forze]

in the "False Gods" book of the Horus Heresy, Horus mentions standing before the encasing of one of the unknown primarchs (while in the warp dream), reflecting about "the future glories" that could have been for this primarch, but would never be. Straight evidence has never been delivered by GWS, except one article in one of the GWS magazine whose name escapes me (White Dwarf) which mentioned a name for an unknown primarch. (which was retconned anyway)

[Tutteman]

In Mechanicum Dorn and Malacador discuss this. Dorn wishs that he had two more legions and is told that they are "lost to us" or something like that. But in the end it's a mystery, and that's how it was intended and how it should remain.

[increaso]

Why would anyone think the 'lost' primarchs were not reunited with their legions?

 

Nothing in the fluff indicates that they weren't.

 

Codex Space Marines says the legions were reunited with their primarchs as mentioned above.

 

Also, Index Astartes 1 [2002] - page 2:

 

Twenty Space Marine legions were formed, each led by one of the Primarchs ...

 

Chaos Space Marines 4th Ed. [2007] - page 7:

 

... as the Legions reclaimed more worlds, eventually all of the Primarchs were found.

[Kjarl Bluetooth]

++++++SPOILER ALERT++++++

 

I posted an answer in another thread - you just need to scroll down as I can't seem to link to the page!

 

Alternative history Lost Legions

[Angels_Blade]

The First Heretic tells you much more on the two legions confirming that they existed during the Crusade but something happened which the Emperor expunged them from history. The legions made an oath to never reveal what happened. GW is not ignoring this, there are plans afoot to have this explained further in future Heresy books.

[Algrim Whitefang]

igotsmeakabob!!

Here is the information that you requested, with quotes, sources and page numbers. Keep in mind, there are some spoilers!!! +++++SPOILER ALERT!!!+++++ So if you haven't read the Horus Heresy novels, do not read ahead! You have been warned!

 

 

Precious little is known about two of the twenty Space Marine Legions, numbered II and XI, and their respective Primarchs, as their records are simply noted as having been "expunged" or "destroyed" in Imperial listings of the 20 Legions.

 

It seems likely the Unknown Legions were Traitors, and were deliberately erased from memory following their destruction. (In Ancient Rome, Emperors could condemn traitors or those that brought shame to Rome to damnatio memoriae, removing every trace that the person ever existed. Their statues were destroyed and their names obliterated from all public records.)

 

However, nothing is known for sure about the names of the legions, their Primarchs, homeworlds, which side they took during the Horus Heresy and their ultimate fate.

 

... in the destiny it would shape for their species. They had all believed. All of them.

- Rogal Dorn, in the falls of the Kath Mandau Precinct.

-The Lightning Tower, page 8.

 

 

The second and eleventh plinths had been vacant for a long time. No one ever spoke of those two absent brothers. Their separate tragedies had seemed like aberrations. Had they, in fact, been warnings that no one had heeded?

- Rogal Dorn, in the falls of the Kath Mandau Precinct. The Lighting Tower, p.9.

 

 

'"... Horus has three of his brother legions with him, you have your Fists and thirteen others."

"Would that it were fifteen,' mused Dorn

"Do not even think it, my friend,' warned Malcador. 'They are lost to us forever."

''I know,' said Dorn

- A conversation between Rogal Dorn and Malcador in regards to the war on Mars and the Heresy, Mechanium, p.329.

 

 

What we know:

- Two separate incidents occurred.

- Both Legions were lost forever.

 

What is suggested:

- They were found.

- Would most likely have sided with the Emperor.

- The incidents should have acted as warnings.

 

 

He stopped by the tank with XI stenciled upon it ... feeling the untapped glories that might have lain ahead for what grew within, but knowing that they would never come to pass.

-False Gods, p.284

 

 

He turned and saw one tank spewing gasses and screams as it was swept from the ground.

-And although possibly a reference to a 'non-lost primarch' in False Gods, p.296.

 

 

"I believe their operation and conduct should be reported to the Council of Terra, pending censure or dissolution. It wouldn't be the first time a Legion Astartes has overstepped the mark, after all."

- Chayne talking to Namatijira in Legion, p.384.

 

There are a few incidents this could allude to, notably the World Eaters actions on various worlds. This could also suggest to that perhaps one/both of the "Missing" legions were dissolved and expunged from all records as some form of censure for some heinous act

 

- In the Soul Drinkers novels, the geneseed, which Daenyathos claims was created when the twenty Primarchs were created; Of all twenty sons of the Emperor, two were universally despised, and both were murdered by their brothers and hacked up into thousands of tiny pieces, these pieces were used to make the first Space Marines. Whether or not this is true we can only guess...

 

Overview

 

Currently, all that is stated about this issue is thus:

• The Emperor created 20 Primarchs, who were snatched from Terra by a Chaos vortex and scattered around the galaxy.1

 

• The 20 incubation capsules drifted through the warp for decades or even centuries, until finally coming to rest on human-inhabited worlds throughout the galaxy,2 "where they were variously adopted by human parents."3

o The only exception to this is the Primarch Konrad Curze, who survived utterly alone (and whose background, in any case, was only described in later material).

 

• In the listings of the 20 Legions in Imperial records, Legions II and XI are stated as having "all records expunged from the library". Earlier background (Codex Imperialis and second edition's Ultramarines codex) less ambivalently states that the records for these two Legions were deleted following the Heresy. Considering that the Traitor Legions are simply listed as Excommunicate Traitoris but still included in these same lists would mean that the records were deleted deliberately and for a reason only known by those who perpetrated the action. Additionally, the fact that the known Traitor Legions are still listed could mean the Unknown Legions were destroyed during or following the Heresy, allowing for their complete removal from historic records.

 

• Of the various abilities possessed by the Primarchs, one was "invisibility".3

o If this is taken literally, this presumably refers to one of the missing Primarchs, as invisibility is not a power possessed by those known. It could also mean this Primarch was a blank (someone whom possesses the pariah gene, which makes them a null) such individuals are said to be invisible to psykers and can be immune to a psyker’s powers.

 

• The Emperor met each Primarch in turn, and each Primarch had risen to a position of authority within the cultures they had found themselves in.1

 

• 20 Legions took part in the Great Crusade, each led by their own Primarch.4

 

• Alpharius was known to be the last Primarch to be found, a fact which even earned him the nickname "The Last". This suggests that all the other Primarchs had been found already.

 

• 20 statues of the Primarchs were erected in the Imperial Palace on Terra. By the time of the Horus Heresy, plinths II and XI "...had been vacant for a long time. No-one ever spoke of those two absent brothers [and] their separate tragedies."7

o This suggests that the two unknown Primarchs had been found previously and that something tragic had happened. The two Primarchs were "absent" but not referred as "dead".

 

• All Primarchs were tempted by Chaos predations, and "fully half" of them failed that test.5

o This suggests that possibly 10 Primarchs were, in some way, corrupted by Chaos influences. The known traitors are nine (Fulgrim, Perturabo, Konrad Curze, Angron, Mortarion, Magnus, Horus, Lorgar, and Alpharius). Whether an additional Primarch was corrupted or not is unclear.

o Prior to sending Sigismund and his Imperial Fists to Mars during the Heresy, Dorn muses to Malcador the Sigillite on the loyalist support of two legions, possibly the two unknown legions, during the Heresy. Malcador quells the Primarch's thoughts, stating that "They are lost to us forever."15

 

• Horus convinced "no less than 9" Space Marine Legions to side with him at the onset of the Heresy,8 a number also referred to as "fully half" of the legions.9 When he assaulted Terra, this number was given as 9.10

o This also implies, but does not categorically states, that the 9 known traitor legions are all of the legions that followed him into rebellion and that 18 legions were the total number of legions active at the time. A passage detailing Horus' plans for the various legions at the outset of the Heresy mentions by name all 18 known legions. 11

 

• "Of the original 20 Primarchs only 9 survived the Horus Heresy. The remainder were either killed in the fighting (like Horus) or fled with their [Legions] into the Eye of Terror. The survivors helped [to rebuild] the Imperium."3

o It is currently accepted that 3 Primarchs died during the Heresy (Ferrus Manus, Sanguinius, and Horus) and 6 are known to have fled into the Eye of Terror (Fulgrim, Perturabo, Angron, Mortarion, Magnus, and Lorgar). The fates of the other 11 are open to multiple interpretations.

o Two traitors, Konrad Curze and Alpharius, did not flee into the Eye of Terror and were killed later on. 7 loyal Primarchs seem to have survived. It is possible that Kurze and Alpharius were counted as part of the 9 survivors.

 

Other Information

Ultramarines Codex:

Second edition's Ultramarines codex states that it seems likely that Legions II and XI fought for Horus at least during the beginning of the Heresy. It also refers to the records as being destroyed following the Heresy.

 

Rubinek

The short-story Hell in a Bottle by Simon Jowet mentions a Primarch Rubinek of the Iron Hearts chapter.12 Primarch Rubineck is not mentioned anywhere else. Some authors seem to occasionally confuse the Chapter Masters with the Primarchs and Rubinek was most likely such a case.13

 

Horus' vision

As Horus lay in coma inside the Davinite temple after being wounded by Eugen Temba, Erebus gave him visions that showed him events from various points in time. In one of these experiences, Horus found himself in the geno-vault where he was created, and looked down upon the genetor-tanks containing the infant Primarchs. At one point he stops before tank XI and reflects upon the "untapped glories that lay within, knowing they would never come to pass". This refers to one of the unknown Primarchs. Later on, Horus' anger takes control and he smashes his fist upon tank XI, damaging it. Shortly after, a vortex swoops up all the genetor-tanks and scatters them across the galaxy.

 

The truth of this vision is unclear; it should be noted that the whole experience was orchestrated by the Chaos powers, in other words Horus saw what the chaos gods wanted him to see.14

 

 

Sources

• 1:Index Astartes I

• 2:Codex: Angels of Death

• 3:Codex Imperialis

• 4:Codex: Ultramarines (for 2nd Edition), by Rick Priestley, p. 7, "Of Legions numbered 2 and 11 nothing is recorded, but it seems likely these also fought for Horus at least during the beginning of the Heresy."

• 5:Codex: Chaos

• 6:Index Astartes IV

• 7:Horus Heresy Chapbook (Anthology)

• 8:Index Astartes II

• 9:Codex: Eye of Terror

• 10:Realms of Chaos: Slaves to Darkness

• 11:Horus Heresy: Visions of War

• 12:Into the Maelstrom

• 13:Malleus by Dan Abnett

• 14:False Gods (Novel) by Graham McNeill

• 15:Mechanicum (Novel) by Graham McNeill

[Iron Lord]

• Of the various abilities possessed by the Primarchs, one was "invisibility".3

o If this is taken literally, this presumably refers to one of the missing Primarchs, as invisibility is not a power possessed by those known. It could also mean this Primarch was a blank (someone whom possesses the pariah gene, which makes them a null) such individuals are said to be invisible to psykers and can be immune to a psyker’s powers.

 

In the Horus Heresy novel A Thousand Sons, Mortarion exhibits invisibility.

[increaso]

Corax also exhibits invisiblity in Raven's Flight.

[igotsmeakabob!!]

Algrim, you rock man.

[Skirax]

• Of the various abilities possessed by the Primarchs, one was "invisibility".3

o If this is taken literally, this presumably refers to one of the missing Primarchs, as invisibility is not a power possessed by those known. It could also mean this Primarch was a blank (someone whom possesses the pariah gene, which makes them a null) such individuals are said to be invisible to psykers and can be immune to a psyker’s powers.

 

In the Horus Heresy novel A Thousand Sons, Mortarion exhibits invisibility.

Actually, it is said that he is in a Cubicle at the Council, and the Cubicle is shielded as those who didn't want to be seen as a 'traitor' to Magnus wanted to keep their being there unknown.

 

Also, Corax himself isn't invisible; Fulgrim mentions him as having armour that bends light around it, and absorbs darkness. A bit of an exaggeration, I do believe.

[Clewz]

• Of the various abilities possessed by the Primarchs, one was "invisibility".3

o If this is taken literally, this presumably refers to one of the missing Primarchs, as invisibility is not a power possessed by those known. It could also mean this Primarch was a blank (someone whom possesses the pariah gene, which makes them a null) such individuals are said to be invisible to psykers and can be immune to a psyker’s powers.

 

In the Horus Heresy novel A Thousand Sons, Mortarion exhibits invisibility.

Actually, it is said that he is in a Cubicle at the Council, and the Cubicle is shielded as those who didn't want to be seen as a 'traitor' to Magnus wanted to keep their being there unknown.

 

Also, Corax himself isn't invisible; Fulgrim mentions him as having armour that bends light around it, and absorbs darkness. A bit of an exaggeration, I do believe.

 

He has the power to make people not notice him in Ravens flight

[Skirax]

• Of the various abilities possessed by the Primarchs, one was "invisibility".3

o If this is taken literally, this presumably refers to one of the missing Primarchs, as invisibility is not a power possessed by those known. It could also mean this Primarch was a blank (someone whom possesses the pariah gene, which makes them a null) such individuals are said to be invisible to psykers and can be immune to a psyker’s powers.

 

In the Horus Heresy novel A Thousand Sons, Mortarion exhibits invisibility.

Actually, it is said that he is in a Cubicle at the Council, and the Cubicle is shielded as those who didn't want to be seen as a 'traitor' to Magnus wanted to keep their being there unknown.

 

Also, Corax himself isn't invisible; Fulgrim mentions him as having armour that bends light around it, and absorbs darkness. A bit of an exaggeration, I do believe.

 

He has the power to make people not notice him in Ravens flight

Ah, didn't get that Audio ;) Maybe, since all Primarchs have some kind of Psychic ability, Corax could make people not notice him Jedi style.

[Culebras]

Corax also exhibits invisiblity in Raven's Flight.

 

Eldar warlocks have the conceal psychic power which obscures the target. I am going to assume that Magnus would have known of this power or a more advanced version, through his own immense research. Having read Thousand Sons, Magnus is implied to be extremely familiar with pieces of Eldar Tech like the webway. Also, I believe there is reference in the book to Thousand Sons using telepathy to cloud the minds of their enemies, and Magnus was assumed to have mastered every school of psychic power, so he would have known that trick as well.

[Iron Lord]

Actually, it is said that he is in a Cubicle at the Council, and the Cubicle is shielded as those who didn't want to be seen as a 'traitor' to Magnus wanted to keep their being there unknown.

 

Cubicle? I remember Magnus saying something like "Tell your master to show himself- I know he's here- exactly 7 paces away" and Mortarion appearing. This was before the Council.

[Massaen]

Thats because the deathshroud stay a precise distance from Mortarion at all times... not because he is invisible...

[Iron Lord]

I though the point in that scene was that even Magnus could not see Mortarion- and after Magnus says what he says, Mortarion chooses to become visible.

 

But it's been a while since I've read that scene.