Two lost legions...

[Son-of-Horus]

I though the point in that scene was that even Magnus could not see Mortarion- and after Magnus says what he says, Mortarion chooses to become visible.

 

But it's been a while since I've read that scene.

 

 

Here it is:

 

Like a living statue, the Astartes stood his ground before Magnus. Two mighty warriors in brass, gold and ash-coloured Terminator armour appeared on either side of Grulgor, long, ebony-hafted scythes held in spiked cestus gauntlets. The harvest blades were dark and heavy with the weight of slaughter they had accumulated. A name leapt to Ahriman’s mind:

 

Manreapers.

 

“Ah, the nameless Deathshroud,” said Magnus, looking around him. “Tell your master to show himself. I know he is here, within forty-nine paces, if memory serves.”

 

Ahriman blinked as a dark outline seemed to flow from a patch of shadow at the foot of one of the Custodes Titans, a tall, gaunt figure in armour of pallid white, bare iron and brass, shrouded in a mantle of stormcloud grey. A bronze rebreather collar obscured the lower part of his hairless skull, and feathers of rancid air gusted from it at regular intervals. The giant figure breathed deeply of these vapours.

 

“Mortarion,” hissed Hathor Maat

 

In this case, it is Ahriman who is unable to see Mortarion. Magnus seems to be mocking Mortarion.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

what, Magnus being arrogant, so it isnt so...

 

WLK

[Iron Lord]

Ahriman blinked as a dark outline seemed to flow from a patch of shadow at the foot of one of the Custodes Titans, a tall, gaunt figure in armour of pallid white, bare iron and brass, shrouded in a mantle of stormcloud grey. A bronze rebreather collar obscured the lower part of his hairless skull, and feathers of rancid air gusted from it at regular intervals. The giant figure breathed deeply of these vapours.

 

“Mortarion,” hissed Hathor Maat

 

In this case, it is Ahriman who is unable to see Mortarion. Magnus seems to be mocking Mortarion.

 

Sounds a lot like some kind of invisibility.

[Pacific81]

• Of the various abilities possessed by the Primarchs, one was "invisibility".3

o If this is taken literally, this presumably refers to one of the missing Primarchs, as invisibility is not a power possessed by those known. It could also mean this Primarch was a blank (someone whom possesses the pariah gene, which makes them a null) such individuals are said to be invisible to psykers and can be immune to a psyker’s powers.

 

In the Horus Heresy novel A Thousand Sons, Mortarion exhibits invisibility.

Actually, it is said that he is in a Cubicle at the Council, and the Cubicle is shielded as those who didn't want to be seen as a 'traitor' to Magnus wanted to keep their being there unknown.

 

 

This. It was just for those at the council who didn't want to exhibit their allegiance, there has been no other mention of Mortarion having an ability to make himself invisible (throughout the entirety of Collected Visions or Flight of the Eisenstein for instance)

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

This. It was just for those at the council who didn't want to exhibit their allegiance, there has been no other mention of Mortarion having an ability to make himself invisible (throughout the entirety of Collected Visions or Flight of the Eisenstein for instance)

 

It was mentioned in Flight of the Eisenstein that Mortarion had an unusual ability to blend into his background, often entering a room without being noticed himself until his Deathshroud guardians revealed themselves. This happens again on Ullanor in A Thousand Sons. I don't think this talent is necessarily psychic in nature, though, he just may have an uncanny ability to just not draw attention to himself.

[Purge The Weak]

Well if anyone killed them it would be russ, he never really flinched when magnus was ordered to be killed.

[Dominicus]

There are a couple things that might have happened to the Legions:

1) One turned to Horus' aid, the other remained loyal, and they were both annihilated in the Battle for Terra; anything that remained afterward was either absorbed into the Ultramarines Chapter or created a new Chapter in Codex adherence.

-This possibility is voided by the fact that the two statues had been removed from the statues of the primarchs well before the Heresy.

2)Both primarchs committed atrocious acts against the Imperium, and the Emperor had his Legions dispose of them as heretics, as well as any remaining traitorous marines amongst their legions. The remaining loyalists were absorbed into the Ultramamrines Legion

3)Rogal Dorn, during his fortification of Terra, felt the Emperor needed more protection full-time. Therefore, he assigned the two Legions to remain as a secret-service of sorts to the Emperor on Terra. Their statues were removed, and all records say they were either annihilated or records expunged.

 

Dominicus

[KJB]

Read "The First Heretic" - the strongest hints so far about what happend to them...

[Dominicus]

Well if anyone killed them it would be russ, he never really flinched when magnus was ordered to be killed.

That's not entirely true. No primarch wished to slay another, but Russ' hate of magics definitely would have played a part in his willingness to attack Prospero. And he was never ordered to kill Magnus, just to capture him and return him to Terra.

[Lupercal Sanquine]

I haven't read the First Heretic, but from my understanding, whatever happened to the two Legions had nothing to do with them turning and fighting against the Imperium. Otherwise, why would the very idea of marine fighting marine, Imperial fighting Imperial appear so abhorent and damn right inconcieveable to Loken and many others?

 

The way i see it, i reckon one Legion might of grown dispondant about never finding their Primarch (perhaps the one Horus 'cracks' in False Gods? But again, arguement about Chaos only showing him what they want him to see as apposed to actual Quantum travel) and went rogue, only to never be seen again, whilst the other might of fought one of the few things capable of taking down a Space Marine Legion, perhaps the first full blown Chaos incursion that the Emperor covers up?

 

Either way, it wasn't a Rebellion, but something that could take an entire Legion out of comission without a single bolter round being fired into power armour...

[GrantDaKiller]

Here is a quote from the first heretic which shows a new view on what happens to the legions:

 

 

 

Xaphen moved away from the others, coming to the pod etched with XI. Rather than peer into its depths, he looked over his shoulder to Argel Tal.

"The eleventh primarch sleeps within this pod - still innocent, still pure. I ache to end this now,' he confessed.

Malnor chuckled from behind the chaplin. 'It would save us alot of effort, wouldn't it?' 'And it would spare Aurelian from heartbreak.' Xephen traced his fingertips over the desinating numeral. 'I remember the devastation that wracked him after losing his second and eleventh brothers.'

Argel Tal still hadn't left Guilliman's pod. 'We do not know for certain if our actions here would change the future.'

'Are some chances not worth taking?' asked the chaplin.

'Some are. This one is not.'

'But the eleventh legion-'

'Is expunged from imperial record for good reason. As is the second. I'm not saying I don't feel temptation creepping over me, brother. A single sword thrust piercing that pod, and we'd unwrite a shameful future.'

Dagotal cleared his throat. And deny the Ultramaries a signnificant boost in recruitment numbers.'

Xaphen regarded him with emotionless eyes, seeming to weight the merit of such a thing.

'What?' Dagotal asked the others. 'You were thinking it too. It's no secret.'

'Those are just rumours,' Torgal gruted. The assault sergeant didn't sound particularly certain.

'Perhaps, perhaps not. The thirteenth definitel swelled to eclipse all the other legions around the time the second and Eleventh were "forgotten" by imperial archives.

 

[Warsmith Aznable]

All Primarchs were tempted by Chaos predations, and "fully half" of them failed that test.5

o This suggests that possibly 10 Primarchs were, in some way, corrupted by Chaos influences.

 

It is mentioned that the incident involving the other two Legions should have been a warning for the Horus Heresy. Maybe two of the Legions went heretical, but one eventually redeemed itself by destroying the other, losing their Primarch along the way, and the survivors were then absorbed by the Ultramarines because there was no precedent for having Legionnaires without a Primarch yet.

 

I'm thinking that there is no "secret canon", and support the idea that GW just included them for DIYers, occasionally dropping random, meaningless and vague clues to add to the mystery.

[Iron-Daemon Forge]

Read "The First Heretic" - the strongest hints so far about what happend to them...

 

Yep page 162 - 163 & then as point out above further on in the book (I still to reach that point, only one 162)

 

Please do not read this if you not read First Heretic (really good book so far :D ) or if you do not with to know.

 

 

All the Primarch have made a promise not to rememeber them. As Logan talking to Magnus after the Word Bearer (very start) are told off by the Emperor for being to slow in there Crusade. Ether way both where gone before the Heresy.

 

As to page 163

 

"Two already lost". Logan looked back to the city. "I still recall how they....."

"Enough" warned Magnus. "Honour the oath you took that day"

"You all find it so easy to forget the past. None of you ever wish to speak of what lost. But could you do it again?" Logan met his brother's eyes. "Could you stand with Horus or Fulgrim, & never again speak my name purly on a promise?"

 

Magnus wouldn't be draw into this. "The Word Bears will not walk the same paths as the forgotten & the purged".

 

[Sturm Moonwolf]

In Dan Abnet's interview on Prospero Burns he mentions that Russ and his Legion were designed to destroy other Legions. Is it possible that Russ had something to do with it, knocking off 2 other Primarchs?

[CaveatLector]

Greetings all,

I had a feeling that a thread concerning the two lost legions would surface after The First Heretic novel. I would love to hear Angels_Blade elaborate on GW's pronouncements about the two lost legions. He seemed to imply that the Horus Heresy novels would reveal something grounbreaking and I would love to hear more about it! (Even if it is scuttlebutt)

 

Second, as mentioned in the novel The First Heretic, it seems as though the Ultramarines gained from the destruction of the two lost legions. When I had read it, it seemed to me that the lost legions were not necessarily absorbed, but that their recruiting homeworlds/systems had been annexed into the greater Ultramarine holdings. I may be mistaken of course. However, it begs the question of what role the Ultramarines played in the extermination of these two legions, and if it involved something more than carrying out the will of the Emperor. But again, perhaps I am seeing things through Lorgar's eyes and am mistaken or drawing conclusions with no foundation?

 

Lastly, I would argue that there is no reason for GW not to reveal the two lost legions. One of the most oft quoted reasons for the two lost legions is to allow players to make DIY armies. But, I believe that most players model their SM armies off of already existing legions. It seems that most DIY armies claim a lineage of one founding chapter or another, and claim to be of one founding or another. If it is the case that most DIY armies are of a successor to a founding chapter, there is no need to have lost chapters to enable DIY chapters. As such, the mystery around the two lost chapters is no longer needed at this point of WH40K. Further I would argue that revealing the two lost legions would create substantial financial gain for GW. Not only would it allow for new SM models in pre-heresy armor, but would allow for an entire expansion of models and gaming based off of the pre-heresy Imperium, not to mention a ton of books concerning the two lost chapters.

 

Therefore, in a rambling, ranting sort of way, I say to GW: Reveal the two missing chapters.

[Razhbad]

All we really know is what is hinted at in the HH series and their are hundreds of speculations.

 

But it does not change why the missing legions are really missing. GW deliberately expunged 2 Legions so that gamers if they wanted to could create their own Legion. Thats why there are 2 of them 1 loyalist and 1 traitor. This is why they were created and that there were not 18 Legions. As such GW will keep on making nice little hints but it will still never reveal who they were or what they were like

[MarshalHelva]

its also explained in the First Heretic that the cracked pod was

actually Lorgars, which exposed him to a lot of warp energy when the pods were scattered.

[BearersOfSalvation]

The 'ultramarines absorbed the forgotten legions' bit is just a rumor - the Word Bearers believe it, but they also hate the Ultramarines.

[Theis]

I believe that Magnus referring to them as

"the forgotten" and "the purged"

gives us a further hint as to their fate.

[Rave]

Have any of you guys thought about maybe the blood ravens are one or both of the missing legions?

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Have any of you guys thought about maybe the blood ravens are one or both of the missing legions?

 

Yes, that has been bantered around a bit, and No, for the sake of my sanity they better not be.

 

WLK

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

Have any of you guys thought about maybe the blood ravens are one or both of the missing legions?

 

I prefer to ignore the existence of the Blood Ravens in their entirety. The bizarrity of what little fluff we've been given about them (ooo, so mysterious) smacks of someone's ego trip and not of anything pertaining to already-established fluff.

[Legatus]

The remaining loyalists were absorbed into the Ultramamrines Legion

Maybe two of the Legions went heretical, but one eventually redeemed itself by destroying the other, losing their Primarch along the way, and the survivors were then absorbed by the Ultramarines because there was no precedent for having Legionnaires without a Primarch yet.

Second, as mentioned in the novel The First Heretic, it seems as though the Ultramarines gained from the destruction of the two lost legions.

The author was so kind as to comment on the issue in this thread.

 

 

That was presented as a rumour or a suspicion a few of the Word Bearers had come up with. No doubt a lot of readers will take that at complete face value (as they have with "Legion", with "Lord of the Night" and with "Angels of Darkness"), even thought it is specifically given as a rumour, and even though the Codex sources tell us exactly why the Ultramarines became so big. And knowing how Aaron Dembsky-Bowden feels about established background I have no doubt that he was just having a little bit of "conspiracy theory" fun.

 

Definitely just that. I like the idea that people around at the time (i.e. the pre-Heresy era) have their own little theories on what happened, but in some cases even they're not entirely sure. In The First Heretic, I was careful to make any potential canon-breaking revelations fall into the "clearly just some soldiers guessing" or "interpreting visions" scenarios. Hopefully that's all fairly obvious in the prose, too. I'd hate a situation like Legion where people rigidly assume the most obvious canon-breaking explanation is the right one. It's certainly possibly true, but the answer is still "I don't know", not "Alpharius definitely sided with Horus because of the Cabal."

 

On a similar note: At one point in TFH, I mention a myth from ancient Colchis, similar to the Odyssey or the Iliad. Now, obviously, it's not true, in the same sense that those stories never really happened - and even if those two stories did take place (for the sake of argument), they'd never have been anything like that because monsters, gods and magic aren't exactly real.

 

In TFH, it's a throwaway remark that

Colchisian "old faith" believes that four pilgrims sailed into the warp, back in the era of the eldar empire. These four pilgrims have names very similar to the Chaos Gods. Obviously, it's not at all true that four Colchisians became the Chaos Gods (and that's never stated as what happens), but it's the kind of fable that - along with many other similar tales - links religions together and ties them into legend. It's a cultural retcon, if you will. Just a way of seeding Chaos familiarity into a society, the same way the Christians adopted the customs and dates of pagan rites when they were seeking to break down the old religions.

 

 

Because we know what we know about history and the world, the Iliad and the Odyssey are impossible, and are obviously no more than pretty lies. It's the same thing in TFH. The problem arises when someone sees a myth like that and either assumes it's a massive retcon, or the author made some moronic mistake.

 

Sometimes the authors just have a bit of fun with inventing conspiracies or rumours. Just like what Gav Thorpe did with the "Jonson waited to see who would win" bit, which is entirely contradictory to canon and had never been intended by him as any kind of revelation if his notes to the book are to be believed.

[increaso]

I'm not up to TFH quotes above but at page 72 Lorgar says

... we are the lords of nothing, kings of the only Legion to ever fail my father.

 

 

That must throw up some questions?

[Midwest]

I'm not up to TFH quotes above but at page 72 Lorgar says

... we are the lords of nothing, kings of the only Legion to ever fail my father.

 

 

That must throw up some questions?

 

What if Lorgar's only talking about failure in war, and one or both expunged legions' failures were genetic?

 

The fact that the legions were sworn to silence on the matter would suggest a really terrible truth. It kinda parallels the apparent silence the Emperor had about Chaos - he seems to have thought that the Primarchs, legions, and mankind in general were better off ignorant than knowledgeable.

 

As such, it might imply that what happened to the two legions isn't rebellion, treason, rejection, or something else where the other Primarchs and Astartes could feel anger, but maybe some sort of disaster that revealed (or threatened to reveal) a fatal flaw in the Primarch/Astartes project.